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#3449 - Friday, February 20, 2009 - Editor: Jerry Katz

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  • Jerry Katz
    #3449 - Friday, February 20, 2009 - Editor: Jerry Katz The Nonduality Highlights - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights ... The marriage of modern
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 21, 2009
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      #3449 - Friday, February 20, 2009 - Editor: Jerry Katz

      The Nonduality Highlights
      - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights
       
       

       
       
      "The marriage of modern physics and modern mysticism has been a nightmare."
       
      To continue the conversation on nonduality and quantum physics from issue 3448 -- http://nonduality.com/hl3448.htm -- Highlights reader Ed Kelly describes a conversation between Ken Wilber and Corey deVos. Read his description and then listen to the MP3 link to hear the conversation and to get the real juice.
       
      "Ken compiled the original writings of the 13 most important founders of modern quantum and relativistic physics, to explore their understanding of the relationship of physics and mysticism. Without exception, each one of them believed that modern physics does NOT prove spiritual realities in any fashion. And yet each of them was a mystic, not because of physics, but in spite of it."
       
       
       
       



      Ken Wilber and Corey deVos - Does Physics Prove God?

      The central question of this dialogue has to do directly with the
      relation of modern quantum physics and spirituality. In effect, does
      physics prove God? Does the Tao find proof in quantum realities?

      Answer: "Categorically not. I don't know more confusion in the last
      thirty years than has come from quantum physics...."

      Ken goes on to outline the three major confusions that have dominated
      the popular (mis)understanding of the relationship of physics and
      mysticism.

      #1: Your consciousness does not create electrons. Unlike Newtonian
      physics, which can predict the location of large objects moving at
      slow speeds, quantum physics only offers a probability wave in which
      a given particle, like an electron, should show up. But here's the
      funny thing: it is only at the moment that one makes the measurement
      that the electron actually does "show up." Certain writers and
      theorists have thus suggested that human intentionality actually
      creates reality on a quantum level. The most popular version of this
      idea can be found in the movie What the Bleep Do We Know?!, in which
      we "qwaff" reality into existence.

      Ken suggests this is both bad physics and bad mysticism. As for the
      former, in his book, Quantum Questions, Ken compiled the original
      writings of the 13 most important founders of modern quantum and
      relativistic physics, to explore their understanding of the
      relationship of physics and mysticism. Without exception, each one of
      them believed that modern physics does NOT prove spiritual realities
      in any fashion. And yet each of them was a mystic, not because of
      physics, but in spite of it. By pushing to the outer limits of their
      discipline, a feat which requires true genius, they found themselves
      face to face with those realities that physics categorically could
      not explain.

      Likewise, none of those founders of modern physics believed that the
      act of consciousness was responsible for creating particles at the
      quantum level. David Bohm did not believe that, Schroedinger did not
      believe that, Heisenberg did not believe that. That belief requires
      the enormous self-infatuation and narcissism, or "boomeritis," of the
      post-modern ego, and Ken goes into the possible psychology behind all
      of that.

      #2: Quantum vacuum potentials are not unmanifest Spirit. The
      immediate problem with the notion that certain "unmanifest"
      or "vacuum" quantum realities give rise to the manifest world, and
      that the quantum vacuum is Spirit, is that it immediately presupposes
      a radically divided Spirit or Ultimate. There is Spirit "over here,"
      manifestation "over there," and it's only through these quantum
      vacuum potentials that Spirit actualizes manifestation—with Spirit
      set apart from manifestation.

      As the great contemplative traditions agree, true nondual Spirit is
      the suchness, emptiness, or isness of all manifestation, and as such
      leaves everything exactly where it finds it. Nondual Spirit is no
      more set apart from manifestation than the wetness of the ocean is
      set apart from waves. Wetness is the suchness or isness of all waves.
      By identifying Spirit with quantum potential, you are actually
      qualifying the Unqualifiable, giving it characteristics—"and right
      there," Ken says, "things start to go horribly wrong, and they never
      recover. These folks are trying to give characteristics to Emptiness.
      They therefore make it dualistic. And then things get worse from
      there...."

      #3: Just because you understand quantum mechanics doesn't mean you're
      enlightened. Physics is an explicitly 3rd-person approach to reality,
      whereas meditative, contemplative, or mystical disciplines are
      explicitly 1st-person approaches to reality. Neither perspective is
      more real than the other, but each perspective does disclose
      different truths, and you cannot use the truth disclosed in one
      domain to "colonize" another. The study of physics, as a 3rd-person
      discipline, will not get you enlightenment; and meditation, as a 1st-
      person discipline, will not disclose the location of an asteroid (or
      an electron). The "content" of enlightenment is the realization of
      that which is timeless, formless, and eternally unchanging. The
      content of physics is the understanding of the movement of form
      within time, i.e. that which is constantly changing. And if you hook
      Buddha's enlightenment to a theory of physics that gets disproved
      tomorrow, does that mean Buddha loses his enlightenment?

      Ken goes on to suggest that what might be influencing quantum
      realities is not Suchness per se, but bio-energy or prana, which may
      be the source of the crackling, buzzing, electric creativity that so
      many theorists have tried to explain at the quantum level. Of course,
      it remains to be seen exactly what further research does and does not
      support.

      *Corey deVos and Ken Wilber - Does Physics Prove God?
      http://iionline.org/Podcast//KenWilberCoreydeVos-Physics.mp3
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