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Highlights For Monday May 8th

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  • andrew macnab
    LIST LIST I am updating a list of email lists which take a nondual perspective, or are open to it. Please assist by reviewing the list and letting me know if
    Message 1 of 1 , May 9, 2000

      I am updating a list of email lists which take a nondual
      perspective, or are open to it. Please assist by reviewing
      the list and letting me know if others belong.

      Thank you very much.

      Jerry Katz




      Did the Buddha stand on the shoulders of others? Did Sri Ramana
      Maharshi? Did Jesus?

      damn straight they did.You think they didnt have help?

      How can you be so sure? If there was a first then who helped the
      first realise. Primitive peoples often say they learnt in their
      dreams which herbs would heal and then there's trial and error.
      Perhaps ancient beings were originally born realised, experimented
      with the wonders of fantasizing and slid down hill ever since. You
      know the senario, may it should have been called the apple of
      fantasy :-).


      ....i don't know how, but i am sure.

      ....Help isn't always that linear


      You mean help might have come multidimentionally or laterally, like
      jesus may not have ascended, he may have gone side ways....just
      kidding :-) But your saying HELP did come some way, huh?

      But perhaps only a psychological being can imagine it is a lone self
      needing help and imagining it coming from some place apart from
      itself. Otherwise there is no help! the cosmos looks after itself?


      ~ So skye, you are assuming that help for realization
      must come from physically manifested beings?
      I know you know better than that. ;-)


      The concept of standing on shoulders is linear, and
      spiritual growth isn't linear. Whether the three mentioned
      gentleman had 'help', yes, and help could come in any form.

      The concept seems to apply to research, where a researcher
      can proceed from where others have stopped. Even in that
      case creative people can do things upon those shoulders that
      no shoulders can take credit for.

      Things happen in the moment -- shoulders or no shoulders --
      and if all conditions are right those things, such as
      insight into the nature of reality, become valued, attended
      to, and made available as a quality of human being in a
      world which may or may not be receptive.


      I wouldn't know. i wasn't there. Maybe they did not need help at that time.
      maybe the things we are chasing now were quite natural at that time. It
      seems very difficult to know how it was then as it is equally
      difficult/impossible to know how things will be (or not) in the future.

      just a thought

      The question is suggesting that an individual could be
      independent of its destiny - as if a magical hand, bypassing
      the law of karma, would draw one out of duality. Therefore the
      original question is irrelevant as individual and karma cannot
      be separated. One could just as well have asked "would there
      have been a Buddha if Gautama would have been born in medieval


      There were no 'shoulders' that I stood on, but there was a 'dawning',
      a realizing "Oh, *this* is what the teaching is about!!" as I headed
      down that shute - "intentional suffering". Gurdjieff himself was as good
      as standing there behind me, pushing me forward.


      All I can say to those involved in this discussion is - stand on all
      the shoulders you like! If you think this will lead to "standing
      alone" or "standing free," then depend on others (externals) and be

      If your vision is clear and Grace is manifest as the "inner Guru,"
      there are no shoulders to stand on. In fact, there is nothing to
      stand on, not even one's own shoulders. The ground drops out from

      Love to everyone,


      Physical or no physical, manifested or no manifested...

      "Help" is a thing of the past, and the past exists not.

      I am beyond hope, help or comfort. There is no salvation for me. I
      am already dead.

      I am utterly alone and in strange territory, behind foreign lines,
      and there is nobody who dares to undertake a rescue mission. Let
      anyone do so, and they will simply find themselves in the
      identical "predicament."

      Let those who wish to dispute it do so. It is a waste of time.



      Gene: <snip>
      I would like to point out that since Jerry began active moderation,
      we are free to express ourselves in any way we like, as long as we do
      not 'personally attack'. It seems to be taking a while for this
      change to sink in. As I see it, we are now able to 'safely' post
      anything, including things that before, would have certainly elicited
      a mocking, sarcastic reply from someone.


      Rather than try so hard to create a truly 'safe' place,
      I'd rather we create the space that seizes opportunities
      whenever they present themselves.

      Such a place could use 'active moderation' as well....

      but just a different 'form' of 'active moderation' than
      the type of moderation referred to above.

      We cannot 'put a lid on' mocking and sarcasm and contempt

      ....not for more than a few weeks....

      without someone, somewhere
      blowing a fuse.

      Rather than continuing to toss out anyone who
      breaks the rules, another form 'active moderation'
      might take is to USE the antagonism and the
      conflict ....as a vehicle for clearing the way for
      the nondual perspective........ not only for some
      individual, but for the collective, as well.

      Such work, however, would require active
      participation from those very individuals who
      tend to stay silent during such times.

      I would love to witness/and or participate
      in such a work should the opportunity
      ever present itself.



      Dear Tim,
      you wrote:

      >In a way I can't explain (but will attempt to anyway, perhaps
      >foolishly), you are my guru. Not in the sense of the Eastern guru,
      >as a "role," but rather, in the heart.

      Thanks, Tim-ji. I appreciate you sharing your awareness of resonance.
      Resonance is felt here, as well. The "guru" is the
      resonance itself, and is the no-thingness that allows
      and is resonance.

      >Your words have often brought
      >me to wonderment, astonishment and clarity, in fact have often
      >dissolved "me" in the bliss that is only This. Your posts (most of
      >them?) are clearly selfless, choiceless and driven by love.

      If words brought wonder and clarity, then such words have
      served as play of One. They arose, catalyzed, then
      dissolved joyfully.

      >transmissions" from "your" heart to "mine" have often occured. Such
      >things are choiceless. I sense "we" are both out of the loop.

      Yes, I've experienced this as well. And language can't really convey
      it. As you say, "we" isn't, yet "what is" is.

      >"Your" Presence (which is "my" Presence) abides timelessly in the
      >heart. We are truly One. What better definition of "guru?"

      Yes, One is, beyond being or nonbeing.
      "Me" here and "you" there are projections as self-openings,
      resonances of One with and from Self. If "guru" is bringer of Light
      and ending of darkness, bringer of Awareness and ending of ignorance,
      then "guru" is only One being One, the movement that is no-movement,
      bringing One to One without anything brought. One ever-present,
      timelessly beyond being present or absent.




      I used to teach Yoga classes in my early twenties to make a living. After the Hatha
      Yoga sequence was
      done, students were led through deep body relaxation in Shava Asana (the corpse pose
      where everyone lies
      down and relaxes). After a while, it seemed to me that for many people that was the
      favorite part of the class.

      Over the years, I have come to feel that the best posture for meditation is not the
      Lotus posture as many yoga
      traditions claim, but simply lying down in Shava Asana. The sleeping posture is
      universal and sets no high bar
      for anyone to have to overcome. Therefore, it is the perfect posture for attaining
      Self-Realization. Deep body
      relaxation can be mastered by anyone slowly and has immense physical and spiritual

      Of course, Hatha Yoga is important for many people and sitting in meditation with a
      straight spine has its own
      health and energy oriented benefits. For many people who cannot sit cross legged,
      sitting straight on a chair
      with support for the elbows is helpful.

      If one is serious about meditation and relaxation and practices it, slowly one
      discover what postures and
      practices are the most helpful. Deep body relaxation seems to be universally
      attractive, because it allows for
      letting go. It is easy to learn and do and with experience becomes natural.


      Please click below to join HarshaSatsangha.


      It is noted in the most ancient of texts, that 'meditating' while in
      the horizontal, tends to put one to sleep _permanently_.

      I have noted that this instruction or admonition seems to be very
      true. I have observed that those who are in emotional turmoil or
      pain, prefer to sleep, rather than be conscious. Meditating while
      lying down in horizontal position seems to be very attractive to
      those who are invested in a lifestyle of avoidance/denial.

      Contrast this to the practice of meditating while standing naked
      under a cold waterfall; or to the practice of meditating while
      walking or running.

      Habituating oneself to meditation under any conditions, makes
      meditation synonymous with those conditions. It is good to meditate
      (if one is in the practice of meditation) in all situations, starting
      with the least challenging. Unfortunately, "meditating" while
      reclining or horizontal, is not only not a challenge, but may
      instead, convey the illusion of meditation, thus satisfying the urge
      to 'self-improvement' while no improvements are actually being made.

      I am sorry if this seems a bit blunt or confrontational, but in this
      case, I could not let this one slip by.

      I warn against being lulled to sleep by warm, sentimental,
      hypnotically suggested 'practices' which counteract natural alertness!

      Kindest regards,

      ==Gene Poole==

      Hi Gene.

      You are quite right that it is easy to fall asleep in Shava Asana or by
      lying down. Your comments perhaps reflect your experience and observations
      and thanks for sharing them.

      The practices and the posture one is attracted to depends on one's inherent

      Consciousness has no posture.

      Self may be realized in any posture including Shave Asana.





      Glo, what does ahimsa mean ?

      ~~Oh, I can say well enough to help you get the joke. It's an "eastern term,"
      I think sanskrit, for the principle of non-violence. It has come to stand for
      non-harming, by thought, word, or deed. This is a noble aspiration or
      intention, a guiding principle for behavior, and the interpretation of how to
      actually implement this, say by some rigid rules, may cause many


      > Hi jerry,
      > Do you believe being detached from the body is nonduality?

      Hi Skye,

      I believe that being detached from the body is nonduality,
      especially since the crazy mind can remain intact, but it
      allows a person to see themself as something beyond the
      body. It gives a glimpse, especially if the detachment is
      literal, such as an out of the body experience.

      I don't believe that nonduality is about detachment or
      disconnection. I don't believe it's about connection either.
      It's about a moment so fine and strong that nothing can
      disconcert it because nothing can find it. It renders the
      body invisible. It is both 'infinite and unbound' as M says.
      It is everywhere and everything yet cannot be found.

      Being detached from the body may bring a person to that, to
      nonduality. But it's not That.



      LOL - laughing out loud
      EO - enlightened one
      NEO - not an enlightened one, or newly enlightened one - take your pick
      BS - bullshit or big smirk
      PHD - piled high and deep, as well as various other creative suggestions
      MSW - master of social work, or Mary seems wonderful
      ROFLMAO - rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
      LOFGRAO - lying on the floor getting rolfed all over
      DWTMICMWYW - don't worry too much, it can mean what you want
      ETERNAL - Each Time Each Rerun Never Actually Lives
      DREAM - Drama Reaches Existence Appealing Mentally
      WHOLE - Whatever Happens Only Love Exists
      ALL - Absolutely Loving Love
      NONE - Nobody Once Never Existed
      YOU - You're Only Unique
      I - Impossible

      ALL or NONE,
      Eternally yours,

      You forgot "Sheesh!" No one knows what that means. :-)

      Shit Happens Eternally, Existentially, Shit Happens

      ******* Yes I see that. Sheesh! :-)
      Happy Days,
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