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Digest: July 2, 1999

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    A copy of this is being sent to HarshaSatsangh. Subscription information is at the end of the post. Happy Fourth of July, Americans. It s a celebration heard
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 4, 1999
      A copy of this is being sent to HarshaSatsangh. Subscription
      information is at the end of the post.

      Happy Fourth of July, Americans. It's a celebration heard
      throughout the world. We start out with a Fourth of July
      contribution from Xan. See you in the Salon...



      This is not non-duality but it is about suffering and
      sacrifice and not

      "THE COST OF LIBERTY....Just take a moment.

      Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who
      signed the
      Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by
      the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.
      Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their
      sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons
      captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or
      hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they
      pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.
      What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and
      jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large
      plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they
      signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well
      that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

      Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader,
      saw his ships
      swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home
      and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas
      McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to
      move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress
      without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His
      possessions were taken from him, and he lived
      in poverty.

      Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall,
      Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

      At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that
      the British
      General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his
      headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to
      open fire. The home was
      destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his
      home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife,
      and she died within a few months.

      John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was
      dying. Their 13
      children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill
      were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests
      and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his
      children vanished. A few weeks later, he died from
      exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston
      suffered similar fates.

      Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American
      Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing
      ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education.
      They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing
      straight and unwavering, they pledged:

      "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on
      the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge
      to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred
      honor". They gave you and me a free and independent
      America. The History books never told you a lot of what
      happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight the
      British. We were British subjects at that time and we
      fought our own government!

      It is easy for us to take these liberties so much for
      granted! So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your
      4th of July holiday and silently thank these men and women."

      author unknown

      ---contributed by Xan


      There may be times when I see the Divinity of everything and
      everyone more clearly than others. There may be times when
      I "feel" it more than others. But *I know in my heart that
      all is Divine*, always. Nothing will take that
      heart-knowledge away, nothing will change it. That
      "knowledge" is itself Divine. It will survive beyond
      physical death. It MUST.

      ---Tim Gerchmez


      Separation comes to be recognized as
      unnatural when wholeness emerges
      fully in awareness even for a moment.
      Tibetan buddhism calls awakening from
      the dream of separation the return to
      the natural state.

      < How would such an unnatural condition occur, by
      the intervention of an agency outside of nature? >

      I used to have a passion to understand this.
      I could not reconcile how separation, con-
      fusion and suffering could have been created
      out of our source and essence which is whole
      and pure. I drove myself a little nuts with this
      question, actually.

      I already knew this full presence, silent and
      essential and that nothing exists outside of it.
      One source only.

      Some people said it was the 'original sin'
      of defiance against God, but how could
      what exists only in oneness become defiant?

      Some people said it was an error, but how
      could an error come from what is perfect?

      Even those who said to me, "What does it
      matter how or why it happened, put your
      attention on the return to original consciousness."
      didn't satisfy.

      It wasn't until I met my teacher, Papaji, and he
      absorbed me completely in his presence and
      my process of transformation - fragmented mind
      to silent presence - that the question stopped
      burning in me. He just said, "Put that aside for

      Later I learned that he and Ramana Maharshi,
      another pure teacher of our century, came to the
      conclusion that the how and why of separation
      cannot be understood. It is a mystery.

      The further I go in the rediscovery of my original,
      natural, whole Self, the more mystery there is
      and the more joy I have in it. Conceptual,
      defining mind does not like unknowns - mysteries -
      but becoming open to that and going through the
      veil of fear yields a safety that the mind could
      never create or imagine.

      It is not balance that pursuit of the truth of
      yourself yields. Balance is only the aim of
      managing opposities - dualities. What you
      are is beyond all that but not at a distance.
      Right here your own awareness itself needs
      nothing, being already complete.

      Thanks for bringing up that question.
      How grateful I am for my freedom from it



      "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there
      a man which had not on a wedding garment.
      And he said unto him, Friend, how camest thou hither not
      having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
      Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot,
      and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there
      shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
      For many are called but few are chosen."
      (St. Matthew 22:11-14)

      The parable cited by Marcia is indeed a difficult one to
      It has some similarities to the saying, "if thine right eye
      offend thee,
      pluck it out," although that one is a little easier to take
      for me.
      One interpretation of these parables is that Jesus was
      kicked off of
      his little league team when he was young (this information
      is known only
      in esoteric circles, and is the reason why young Jesus
      started hanging
      out at the temples so frequently). If we assume that Jesus
      wasn't trying to compensate for childhood trauma we could
      look at the parable about the dinner guest as a statement
      that one must attune oneself vibrationally to the reality
      one intends to enter. If one's being isn't able to resonate
      at the appropriate frequency, one will be "dismissed," that
      is, one will dismiss oneself. The parable about
      self-mutilation can be construed as a statement about
      willingness to move from duality to nonduality (at least one
      hopes this is the meaning of that). "If thine eye be
      single, thine whole body will be filled with light."



      This is a clipping from another discussion group I am in...
      thought I
      would share it with you...

      Don James wrote:

      I'm not saying ignorance doesn't run deep. I'm just saying
      enlightenment won't run deeper if we don't include the
      suffering in
      our realization. As long as we say Christians are ignorant
      or point
      at anything and call it ignorance, we take a picture of it
      and declare
      it a still life. As if it were somehow outside of us, that
      we aren't
      involved. Rather, we should be a source for the illumination
      of all
      things, instead of being judge and jury.


      Tim Harris replied:

      Yes. This is true. 'All' things are, in their 'natural'
      form, dead...
      emotions included. Our words (physical manifestation) and
      our thoughts
      (concept manifestation) are the 'air' (nothing) that give
      them life.
      However, they are no more 'alive' then they were before, but
      for the fact that now... they are 'real' and consume our

      Obsession is the argument.


      What do we need to know, from an educational standpoint?

      * How to speak (this we learn on our own...)
      * How to read and write (the necessity being due mostly to
      the emphasis
      placed on written communication at this time in history)
      * Simple numbers and arithmetic (same reason as above)
      * Search and retrieval skills (e.g. how to look up a number
      in a phone book
      or a word in a dictionary)

      A formula:

      Require children to attend school through age 12. Emphasize
      only language, communication skills and motor skills (gym
      classes). Let the final year be dedicated entirely to the
      subject "How to think for yourself" (or integrate this theme
      through all the years). Then free the poor kids to live
      life, not to learn about it. Make further knowledge
      available but completely unrequired. Emphasize creativity
      and self-reliance during the school years, rather than data

      Imagine a world in which all children were "schooled" in
      this way...

      ---Tim G.


      Nowadays, when I feel needy
      I relax into the "arms" of silent presence.
      I used to think of it as Divine Mother. Now
      it has no name.



      I am "getting" this. Getting a "feel" for those arms.
      Is it silent or loving silence?




      The universality of that kind of pain.
      It is global. The entire planet was covered in this
      mass of suffering. She was groaning from the weight
      of it. All of her children moment by moment birthing,
      dying, wave after wave of suffering both on the in
      breath and the out breath. This was her breathing.
      At that moment I was closer to mother earth than
      her breathing and as a mother I could feel her
      children's suffering and the sorrow it brought to her.
      All I wanted was to help her. So sorrow is.......
      "doing us" "being us" - *is* our knowing,
      experiencing, feeling --
      exactly as we *are.*


      Yes, I also feel that there is universal sorrow.
      The fuel in form of suffering, that somehow binds
      man to madness.


      Yes. This is the Core Wound we were
      talking about a little time ago, and that
      Saniel Bonder addresses. The essential
      grief over the imagined loss of our Self
      and in that, the loss of communion with
      other life forms - each other.

      This delusion of separation is madness
      and its distortions show up in many ways.

      Everything we make up is a shabby
      second, a merry-go-round ride leading
      nowhere for no purpose, except that
      the ride shields us from feeling the pain
      of the real loss and from remembering
      what we are really longing for.

      That's that big "first step", Melody.

      What could be more helpful, more
      compassionate than to be one of
      those facing the void that we have
      taken to be so real and discovering
      the truth of ourselves - simple and

      This is the Healing that ends all suffering.


      I've given up "pondering" along with a bunch or other
      activites that didn't work to awaken and transform me.

      I trust I will have understandings when I need them,
      Given - as all else is given.



      My friend Sandeep said to me earlier
      on another list, that I am bound, because
      I "see" chains. < ZAP!>

      Boy, did I heard the truth in that.

      Today is the first day I'm willing to
      consider setting aside my script - to
      step beyond the chains, to look beyond
      the picture that I've been piecing back

      before *first* identifying and labeling and
      'embracing' each and every last piece of it. :-)

      It's scarier than hell.

      A life with no history. No mission or

      Damned scary stuff.



      Hi Melody,

      Remember that poem Sandeep likes to quote... something like

      There's a field..
      Out beyond right and wrong.
      I'll meet you there.

      Hey, I'm scared, too.
      Hold my hand?
      I want to step off this merry-go-round... with you.



      Do round and square objects exist outside?

      A ball and a cube -- are these objects' qualities IN the
      OBJECT? Do we
      touch the same thing that we see? Are the objects external
      to us?

      In the non-dual perspective, a stumbling block can be the
      belief that
      physical objects really are Out There. This geometrical
      model of the world has even influenced our thinking at the
      psychological level and spiritual level. We take thoughts
      and spiritual perspectives as objects on the
      physical/geometrical model as well. We say, for example,
      that "There's a thought in my head," or "I'm coming from a
      very loving place right now," or, "I'm resting in the
      vastness." As ways of speaking these are OK, but if we
      somehow believe them, it increases our feelings of

      What if the geometrical model is insupportable? What if
      there really are
      no objects Out There? This would include the sense organs
      and the brain,
      of course.

      Well, there's an argument that goes like this, and it has a
      famous test
      case that casts grave doubt on the geometical model of the

      1. If physical objects exist external to us, then
      its qualities exist external to us.

      2. If qualities exist external to us, then
      somehow our senses contact those qualities.

      3. If our senses contact those qualities, then
      the qualities of roundness and corneredness
      are qualities of objects that our senses touch.

      4. If roundedness and corneredness are objects that
      our senses touch, then we both see and feel and
      can differentiate between roundedness and
      5. If (4) is false, then objects do not exist external
      to us.

      Now, there is a famous perceptual test case, a thought
      experiment, that
      tests the truth of (4). It is called the Molyneaux case,
      proposed by an
      ingenious optician named William Molyneaux in 1693. It has
      implications for one's understanding of the non-dual
      perspective. When you read this, try to imagine for a moment
      that you aren't familiar with
      Eastern teachings saying that the phenomenal world is an

      Here's the way John Locke posed the problem in the late 17th

      Suppose a man born blind, and now adult, and
      taught by his touch to distinguish between a
      cube and a sphere of the same metal, and nighly
      of the same bigness, so as to tell, when he
      felt one and t'other, which is the cube and
      which is the sphere. Suppose then the cube
      and sphere placed on a table, and the blind
      man made to see: quaere, whether by his sight,
      before he touched them, he could now distinguish
      and tell which is the globe, which the cube?

      Some philosophers have argued Yes, others say No. But there
      have been test cases, even a recent movie (At First Sight)
      about an adult gaining his sight. Based on empirical
      research, the upshot is NO. Upon gaining his sight and
      training it a bit, the newly sighted person can distinguish
      between the cube and sphere. But, until s/he is taught to
      link the sight with the touch, s/he cannot say which is
      round, which is cornered.

      This makes (4) above false, which, given the argument above,
      entails that objects are not external to us!



      Ivan: ...Let's give names to the cows for comunication's
      clarity sake. Let's call the "Present as allness":
      non-centered awareness
      Let's call the other: centered awareness
      From centered awareness, nothing is real. ...
      In this situation the unknown is just a concept
      or idea, or taken as an absurdity.

      From non-centered awareness, the self is absent,
      there is not a centered-obsever, there is no
      entity anywhere, and all is non-divided, and from
      here it seems that all that is percieced is real.

      How can something existing not be real?

      Dan: Something existing can not be real, if it
      is seen that its reality is insubstantial. For
      example if it is moving in and out of various
      states that we label as "existence" and never
      truly is "in existence."

      Ivan: Thought is beautifull, real, but limited.
      Thought can not deal with non centered awareness.
      Thought is usefull to tecnicalitys (and many
      other things, to be fair).

      Dan: Thought is intriguing, insubstantial,
      fleeting, able to create wonderous images.

      Ivan: Yes I would say that whole movement of
      psychological time...the gap...is thought and
      memory and inner self.

      Dan: Indeed. The gap between thought and moment to moment
      experience is created as memory is used and an illusory self
      is contructed as the
      "manager" of this process. This "inner self" is
      psychologically important, yet ultimately unreal when one is
      able to do without it.

      Ivan: ...But the strange thing about it is that
      this distance is not percieved.....and then
      suddenly ...one awakes in the field of centered
      -awareness, as an inner entity.

      Dan: It seems to me that this inner entity is
      constructed over time. It forms a necessary
      psychological function that is part of human
      development. It is like a cocoon that has a time
      to be shed, when it isn't needed any longer.
      A person would need sufficient strength to
      withstand the aloneness and groundlessness of
      "no self" (of the thought-constructed kind).
      The "inner self" has huge importance in managing
      feelings, relationships, and thought, so leaving
      it behind involves a readiness factor IMO.

      Ivan: I would say it is a meditative state.....in the sense
      that it mediates....is not identified...there is not a
      loclised observer: non-centered awareness.

      Dan: I am more in agreement with your view that
      it is nonlocalized awareness than that it is
      meditation. For me, there is no evaluative
      means to term It meditation or non-meditation.
      As there is no gap, there is no aspect of
      experience rejected from it.

      Ivan: Yes, there is no time for
      evaluation...although one can "see" insanity in
      the eventual apearence of the center....as an
      evident fact, independent of memory.

      Dan: An interesting way to look at it. I can
      see your point. I would rather look at the
      appearance of the center as a developmental phase
      in which a fictional entity is constructed to be
      used as a means to deal with socially necessary
      situations and interactions. I do agree with you
      that from the perspectiveless perspective of non-
      localized awareness, much of what is done in the
      name of the "self" is unnecessarily destructive
      and absurd - a kind of "insanity" of sorts.
      Yet I would hesitate to label as insanity that
      which is a developmental phase for the evolution
      of human awareness.


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