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Thursday/May 4

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    JAN BARENDRECHT NEO: I think it may be hard to find any that may be totally realized for what is there to say? JAN: There is little to say, except that many
    Message 1 of 1 , May 6, 2000
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      NEO: I think it may be hard to find any that may be totally
      realized for what is there to say?

      JAN: There is little to say, except that many love mystics
      were proficient contemplators. For instance, when having a
      cat, it is obvious one loves the cat, even to the extent
      one would be willing to kill in order to feed the cat. When
      the cat ruins the curtains or vomits on the carpet, the cat
      still is loved. Compare this with the love of a mother-cat
      for her young - there is a similarity. True love is
      forgiving and inclusive - nothing is negated or rejected
      but everything has to be included. One hand can caress
      while the other one is killing and both are manifestations
      of love. The initial effort is but to see love.

      Of course one is pure love already but "every-thing"
      seemingly is in the way. This is why negation of
      every-thing (neti-neti) is simpler, perhaps initially less
      rewarding but in the end just as rewarding. For a lover of
      Love, duality is the (seeming) separation between Love and
      manifestations of Love (every-thing).

      When living in a town, the woods seem to be silent but for
      one living in the woods, the desertlike mountainous areas
      seem to be silent. Seem, because when used to it, the
      sounds of the body will be heard: the heart beating, the
      intestines bubbling, the blood circulating in the ears, the
      breathing. Likewise it is with the silence from verbalized
      thoughts - only a change in kind will happen, a "leveling
      down"; as long as the body is alive, it is possible to
      observe thought processes: ultimately all matter is a form
      of thought. As the body is alive, thinking remains
      possible. Thinking is a power - sincerely wish bullshit,
      one gets it, think one's body is a bag of filth, one gets
      it, and when least expected (forgotten and no longer



      I have tried sooooooooooooo many things and guess what.
      nothing works, because you are never the same, so what
      works this minute doesn't work the next. So i just let it
      go the way it wants to go and that means that sometimes my
      mind is wondering, sometimes i am aware, sometimes i am
      dreaming but most of the time i have no idea. and i like it
      that way. but who knows about the next minute. i might
      start trying the same silly things all over again.

      this morning i woke up and i realized, as if someone
      slammed me on the head with a hammer : we will not be here
      forever, we will not be here forever, we will all die
      someday, we will all die someday.

      and you know what. i made me happy. not that we will die,
      but because it was so clear, soooo clear !

      and then i thought, so if i want to be nice to someone,
      i'll have to do it now. Beautifil thought, isn't it ?

      15 minutes later, i was in a dispute with my daughter !

      No harm done, we were furious at each other and made
      obscene gestures at each other, but it didn't last very
      long. it took me a few minutes and i saw the funny side of
      it (it really *is* funny, i mean those little things that
      can upset you, very tiny little things, almost no-thing,
      no, not almost, really no-things) and happiness and joy
      returned in a flash.

      and that's how i still am.



      I gave up on my life Marcia, and that whole seeking
      business, you I guess still have a few rounds. I think it's
      just a matter of having to go around the block your
      prescribed number of times. Don't let me keep you. :-) Have
      you looked into getting one of those counters that joggers
      wear? :-) I tell you what, how about I pour you a glass of
      scotch next time you go by? :-)



      Professor N. R. Krishnamoorthy Aiyer 's first visit to
      Ramana Maharshi. It is a very funny account.


      Professor Krishnamoorthy Aiyer speaks in his old age:

      I am now ninety-two years old and I first met the Maharshi
      in the summer of 1914.

      I had a question for the Maharshi. At that time I was an
      agnostic. I thought nature could take care of itself, so
      where is the need for a Creator? What is the use of writing
      all these religious books telling 'cock and bull' stories,
      which do not change the situation. I wanted to put to him
      straight questions: is there a soul? Is there a God? Is
      there salvation? All these three questions were condensed
      into one: Well sir, you are sitting here like this - I can
      see your present condition - but what will be your future
      sthiti ? The word sthiti in Sanskrit means 'state' or

      The Maharshi did not answer the question. "Oho," I thought,
      "you are taking shelter under the guise of indifferent
      silence for not answering an inconvenient question!" As
      soon as I thought this the Maharshi replied and I felt as
      if a bomb had exploded under my seat.

      "Sthiti, what do you mean by the word sthiti!" he
      exclaimed. I was not prepared for that question. "Oho, this
      man is very dangerous, very dangerously alive. I will have
      to answer with proper care," I thought. So I said to
      myself, "If I ask him about the sthiti or 'state' of the
      body it is useless: the body will be burned or buried. What
      I should ask him was about the condition of something
      within the body. Of course, I can recognize a mind inside
      of me." Then I was about to answer "By sthiti, I mean
      mind," when it struck me what if he counter-questions with
      "What is mind?" This I am not prepared to answer.

      As all this was passing through my mind he was sitting
      there staring at me with a fierce look.

      I then questioned within me, "What is mind? Mind is made up
      of thoughts. Now, what are thoughts?" I landed in a void.
      No answer. I then realised that I could not present a
      question about a mind which did not exist!

      Up to that point, the mind was the greatest thing that
      existed for me. Now I discovered it did not exist! I was
      bewildered. I simply sat like a statue. Two pairs of eyes
      were then gripping each other: the eyes of the Maharshi and
      my eyes were locked together in a tight embrace. I lost all
      sense of body. Nothing existed except the eyes of the

      I don't know how long I remained like that, but when I
      returned to my senses, I was terribly afraid of the man.
      "This is a dangerous man," I thought. In spite of myself, I
      prostrated and got away from his company.



      If thine ignorance offend thee, pluck it out. My ignorance
      won't go away, so I'm making friends with it.



      I love God with my whole heart, my whole mind and my whole
      soul. It is my desire to help lighten the Sorrow of our
      COMMON FATHER. It has nothing to do with me personally at
      all. Not a broken heart or anything like that. I wish to be
      of service. This is a heart felt desire not a desire of the
      mind. I can feel enormous bliss sitting in meditation but
      there is more than this. I can have hands free orgasms
      (Kundalini) but so what?????? This isn't about seeking. The
      being- strivings have to do with being. Conscious labor and
      intentional suffering.



      Herewith the most complete list possible of Gurdjieff's
      Order of Idiots, with thanks to Marcia Paul. (Yes, I know
      we said no more after this, but I couldn't help formatting
      the list for easier reading. Jerry, any chance this could
      be posted on the NonDuality website somewhere, for future

      1 ordinary idiot
      2 super idiot
      3 arch idiot
      4 hopeless idiot
      5 compassionate idiot
      6 squirming idiot
      7 square idiot
      8 round idiot
      9 zigzag idiot
      10 enlightened idiot
      11 doubting idiot
      12 swaggering idiot
      13 born idiot
      14 patented idiot
      15 psychopathic idiot
      16 polyhedral idiot

      Idiots 17-21 constituted a spiritual hierarchy, reflecting
      progressive gradations of objective reason

      Idiot 18 presented the highest development which a human
      being could reach, but in order to attain it, he had first
      voluntarily to descend again from 17 to 1, the ordinary

      Idiots 19 and 21 were reserved for the sons of God.

      21 - Unique Idiot (God himself being the Unique idiot)

      Source: Moore, J.B. 1991. Gurdjieff - A biography. Element
      Books Limited, Shaftesbury, Dorset.


      MARY SALEGUI: When I first joined this list, I said that I
      did not understand what I am that I am meant and received
      answers that helped a great deal. Well, there is another
      expression that I cannot grasp and that is The Answer is in
      the Question. Duh! Can someone please explain it? Pretend
      I'm a child; I won't be offended. Is it supposed to be a

      XAN: Look into where the question arose from, back before
      that idea, before any idea.

      JODY: In other words Mary, who asks the question?

      MU: Mary Mary quite contrary....

      The answer is in the question is much the same as the
      seeker is what is sought. Is it a koan? For some, maybe.
      For me it is one of those delightful contracdictions. It
      points to one of most difficult aspects of non-dualism (or
      any other darn ism) and that is the simplicity of accepting
      that we are already there.

      For me, I had reached a point in my little life where I did
      not care if I starved to death, got a new job, kept my
      house, etc. I wasn't miserable, understand, I just HAD TO
      KNOW! I was living out that story of the seeker who goes to
      the hermit and asks to be shown god. The hermit grabs the
      seeker by the scruff of his neck and jams his head into a
      barrel of water. When the hermit pulls the luckless fellow
      out of the water, he tells him that when he wants god as
      much as he wanted air.... only I was the seeker and the

      So, I discovered that I am That. It wasn't an intellectual
      thing by any means. However, no angels appeared to
      congratulate me, no aliens took me on a trip around the
      universe. But, I did pass Go and collect $200! ;-))

      Mary Mary quite contrary You're a buddha Ain't that scary!

      MANCHINE: We never separated but here we are! That leaves
      some pretty big questions, no?

      DAN BERKOW: reat question! I mean, great answer!! Uhhh....

      It means this to me, Mary: Asking a question so intently
      that you see the assumptions involved in asking a question:
      There must be a questioner facing something that is
      questioned, & some kind of tension that is expected to be
      resolved in the future when the answer is attained.

      When these assumptions themselves are opened into
      questioning, one undermines the position from which a
      question can be asked:

      the assumed questioner is nowhere to be found appart from
      the implied notion of his/her necessity for existing, that
      is, implied by the activity of questioning, itself. the
      tension can't be assumed to be resolved or resolvable at
      some future time. the question that is being faced is no
      longer faced from a position apart, dissolves as question,
      and itself becomes the answer. the answer is: no time in
      which to develop or receive an answer, no position from
      which to stand apart to evaluate and query, and no
      assumptions about what needs to be addressed, nor what
      needs to happen for resolution to occur.

      JERRY: It means the question is sufficient.

      MATTHEW: well mary some adults like to pretend that they
      understand things. You know what pretending is dont you?
      Some adults do that so others will think they are wise. So
      some adults will give you answers like this because they
      dont know the answer either. It is really a silly game that
      adults play.Also dear, it is quite ok to not understand
      these words, these ideas, it does not mean you are stupid,
      or that you dont understand. You probably already do know
      what it means but havent ever put wrds to the understanding
      and there is no real need to do that either.Hope this



      It was said about Zen that when the women realized, they
      just went on with the washing. It was the men who wanted to
      sit around and talk and make a big deal of it.


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