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Wed./April 26

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Not included in this edition are lengthy philosophical exchanges between Asta Vakra, Dan Berkow, Miguel-Angel and Greg Goode. Watch for the announcement of the
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 28, 2000
      Not included in this edition are lengthy philosophical
      exchanges between Asta Vakra, Dan Berkow, Miguel-Angel and
      Greg Goode. Watch for the announcement of the HarshaSatsangh
      Summer Retreat, to which you are all invited.


      Forget better and worse.
      Just be unwoven.

      Forget getting and losing.
      Just be.

      Forget completing anything,
      even forget producer and product.

      Forget your forgetting -
      then where are you?

      --Dan Berkow


      what's interesting about a screen? --Larry

      What's displayed on it of course. Other than that, nothing
      at all. --Phil


      Anything we share in this forum is a concept. The concept
      we are sharing now points to a real experience, but one
      that cannot be shared. It can only be experienced
      subjectively. Those that know, know.

      I think we share more than concepts. Maybe it's a spiritual
      virus :-)

      You're right Larry. The words on the page are sketches of
      concepts, the essence of understanding them is something
      more. There is a communication between hearts that occurs
      here. The language employed is Love.



      I really think we should get together to come up with a
      common definition of the word. If I do suspend judgement
      then enlightenment does just not fit. Its kinda like being
      in love, you know it is like being in love or being love,
      one knows it (I think).

      There certainly are lots of definitions of enlightenment.
      Holding an idea of what it's like to be enlightened may be
      useful up to a point but eventually it forms a barrier to
      enlightenment. You don't need to think about being in love,
      you fall in love. There's a pop song I vaguely remember
      where the singer keeps saying "I'm not in love" but it's
      obvious he is. Saying "I'm not enlightened" can be like

      It was 10cc, the amazingly talented Godley and Creme. This
      song came out in 1975, when I was a fifteen year old school
      girl, and I set my sights on graeme, then a 20 year old
      student who didn't want to settle down. He kept singing
      that song to me. Ha ha. We've been married 20 years in

      I'm not in love, so don't forget it.
      It's just a silly phase I'm going through.
      And just because I call you up,
      Don't get me wrong, don't think you've got it made.
      I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
      I like to see you, but then again, that doesn't mean you
      mean that much to me.
      So if I call you, don't make a fuss - don't tell your
      friends about the two of us.
      I'm not in love, no no, it's because...

      I keep your picture upon the wall.
      It hides a nasty stain that's lying there.
      So don't you ask me to give it back.
      I know you know it doesn't mean that much to me.
      I'm not in love, no no, it's because...
      Ooh, you'll wait a long time for me.
      Ooh, you'll wait a long time.
      I'm not in love, I'm not in love...



      Judi contributed:

      Ram Tzu knows this...
      Only a fool
      Would trade
      Everything he has
      For nothing.

      Larry responded:

      Where does he (Wayne Liquorman) get this stuff? It doesn't
      sound like Nisargadatta or Ramesh.

      Judi replies:

      I've never read Ramesh and only a smidgen few pages of
      But I can tell you that Wayne I'm sure is speaking from his
      experience, because that is my experience too. Everything
      goes, but
      rest assured, it all comes back, bigger and better than



      So manifest-unmanifest are all conclusions reached by the
      wakeful state, the Brahman and the ParaBrahman etc are all
      the concepts. All one can say is that Every thing is
      concept in that sense the advaitic doctrine of maya comes
      true. We have no other means to find out the truth.

      The Way to Truth is indeed Clear and Direct, say the Sages
      like Sri Ramana. It is our experience, however, that we
      stumble, fumble, and mumble seemingly endlessly on the
      spiritual path. So What prevents us from Seeing and Being?
      It seems it is the mind itself ultimately, however we
      choose to define it, that hinders Realization or
      Recognition of the Eternal.

      The Mind can be our friend or our enemy. This truism is the
      basis of most schools of thought of spirituality and
      psychology and religion.

      We need not reflect long to realize that all discussions
      and intellectual attempts to understand, use the faculty of
      the mind. All spiritual practices as well are based on the
      presumption of the use of the mind. While the activity and
      power of the mind can takes us to the highest regions of
      celestial heights and understanding, the mind is unable to
      transcend itself. Therefore, the Truth that permeates the
      mind is not grasped clearly.

      The use of the faculty of intelligence and discrimination
      is an important function of the mind on the spiritual path.
      However, the mind upon reaching spiritual maturity gives
      even that up. All discussions and conclusions reached about
      the nature of reality, Brahman, Parabrahman, brain,
      consciousness, etc. by their very nature involve
      perception, interpretation, and judgment. The beauty of
      Self-Realization lies in giving up everything to the Lord
      of the Heart that is the Self. Giving up everything,
      including the mind itself, is what makes Self-Realization
      possible. The Pure Knowing that Knows It Self and longs for
      absolutely nothing is the Self that is often indicated by
      the term Sat-Chit-Ananda.

      So it would appear that the ultimate sacrifice is that of
      our perceptions and interpretation and our suffering and
      whatever else that constitutes our identity. This sacrifice
      of one's identity is not something external but is the
      attitude of surrender to the Lord who sits in one's own
      Heart. If spiritual practices have a purpose then it must
      be to allow the mind to mature and finally surrender to the
      Source of its own Reality. Ramana Maharshi has pointed out
      that God, Guru, Grace, Self all mean the same thing.

      I would recommend "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" for
      everyone. Also "Be As You Are" by David Godman is an
      important compilation of conversations with the Sage of



      Hi Marcia... you wrote to Neo (in part):

      You put these questions out there as bait and when someone
      tries to answer them you "slip" away from them with another
      question which seems to relate but has actually "switched
      the framework" on them. Hmmm. The old bait and switch


      Gene: Here you are intuitively sensing what I refer to as
      'mixing levels'. Your use of the word 'framework' seems to
      be identical to my use of the word 'levels' in our previous
      exchanges (which petered out for some reason).

      When I warn against 'mixing levels', I am pointing out the
      overall difficulties which that behaviour engenders. It is
      possible to 'hide from oneself', as well as from others, by
      mixing levels.

      Leaving each level/framework 'as it is' allows resolution;
      analytical power of mind can and will properly classify
      aspects in a relative way, thus eventually cancelling any
      questions arising from observation. But if one mixes
      levels, no question can be answered, not even in a relative
      way, as you are seeing firsthand.

      On the issue of the 'idiot'; this is one of several such
      categories of 'types', as invented by Mr G. Another 'type'
      is 'lunatic'; each type (perhaps you could detail the
      entire list here for us?) embodies not only obvious
      weaknesses, but also potential for particular styles of
      brilliant realization or transcendence. I generally agree
      with Mr G's characterizations, at least within the limited
      context which he deliberately created via his teachings.

      It is useful to be open to characterizing oneself as an
      'idiot', if one realizes this property in the sense that Mr
      G intended. All human-created frameworks are, as you know,
      subject to instant collapse, and need constant
      re-enforcement... including Mr G's 'work' paradigm. In
      fact, I see that it was his highest hope that as his
      intricate frameworks collapsed, that they would take all
      other 'beliefs' down at the same time, leaving as a
      remainder, only the shock of total emptiness.


      One thing is clear to me now. I was not understanding what
      you meant by levels. What I believe you are talking about
      is what is referred to as buffers in G.'s work. Buffers are
      not levels but buffers keep us from seeing all the levels.
      Buffers, to me, is a perfect word because we are buffered
      from the shock of seeing all our selves thus revealing the
      shock of our nothingness or no one thingness.

      What I was thinking you were meaning by levels is vertical
      awareness. There is a level where all levels (your way of
      saying levels) is seen. This is the level where the
      nothingness is seen. I do not experience it as nothingness
      but I see the nothingness of my ordinary level of
      consciousness. This is the level I experienced with my
      friend in the experience we spoke about before. The level
      where we (he and I) were looking "from" the same place.
      Looking "through" my/his eyes. What was subjective becomes

      Leaving each framework 'as it is' seems to me to be what I
      think of as not identifying with it or giving it my
      identity stamp. Or, as is more often the case, letting go
      of the identification that I see I am in. Another way of
      looking at it that has been helpful to me is to not come to
      any conclusion. As I attempt to draw a conclusion about
      what I am seeing I am identifying i.e. I am giving the
      observation an identity. Identifying an observation is not
      the same as identifying "with" an observation. There is a
      subtle but critical difference. Most often this is exampled
      in the difference between describing behavior and taking it


      The HarshaSatsangh Summer Retreat 2000 cordially invites
      our NDS sister list to join us for a joint Millenium

      WHEN? Begins Fri afternoon July 14, Sat, and on to Sun
      afternoon staying two nights FRI and SAT.

      WHERE? The Providence Zen Center, 50 acres of rural beauty
      outside Providence, RI - see the URL for details of
      directions and picture of pagoda!

      COST? For $55 per night, the Zen Center provides lodging
      and vegetarian meals. Rooms sleep 3 to a room on futons on
      the floor, bring your own bedding or sleeping bag.
      (Bathrooms with showers are private, not dormitory style.)

      WHO? So far, Harsha, Jerry, Greg, Andrew, David Hodges
      (even more mysterious then Michael Read) Christiana (all
      the way from San Francisco!!) and Dharma and Victor (known
      only on HS) and me Gloria.

      The Zen Center CAN house up to 75 people and they are
      holding this weekend open for us so we can add more people
      as we go along and get closer to the date. Also please feel
      free to bring along spouses or friends, as so far I am the
      only one who is doing this.

      They do understand we are not holding a silent meditation
      retreat and want to organise our own activities. We are
      still taking suggestions for some whole group or small
      group times and we expect lots of unstructered time for
      walking and talking.

      PLEASE email me privately if you can attend or have
      questions. Updates will be posted from time to time on both

      Gloria glee@...

      It would be great if lots more of you can make this


      Thank you Sri Greg-ji. The fragrance of your lotus feet
      reaches all continents (through the Internet). Your
      knowledge of so many traditions and schools of thought is
      remarkable. Perhaps you can share a list of readings or
      books that you like. We all look forward to your presence
      at the summer retreat.

      Will do a quick booklist based on some recent discussions a
      bit later Harsha-ji, after I do some actual work at work!

      I look forward to the retreat too. One really fun thing
      I've done at other retreats is a drum circle. Everybody
      bring their favorite
      instrument/drum/gong/bell/spoons/sticks/pots+pans, etc.
      After a short meditation, we start with a simple but catchy
      rhythm and smoothly work into a trance-like drumming
      session. It can last for hours, and I've seen amazing
      transformations occur, with people opening graciously to
      parts of themselves they didn't know about or approve of!
      There is a great drum-master from Montreal who taught this
      to me over the last several years. He has 300-person drum
      circles downtown Montreal on Sundays. Maybe there are
      others who have done this too.




      Michael : "how will we know the truth?"

      Dan : "By being it."

      Exactly! The problem arises when one takes truth to be a
      formulation, a belief system, a theory about reality,
      rather than reality itself. Ultimately, no theoretical
      formulation is true, because Reality, which is not an
      object, cannot be expressed in words. You can only be it.




      I would just like to add a point. Neo also came to his
      realization by dying. This could represent ego death.

      Excellent point neo. Thanks.

      While were on the subject... Remember the last scene, how
      Neo looked around kind of knowingly.
      Sort of breathed in being and went on his way.
      Just a reminder... ego death doesn't by any means turn one
      into a zombie. :-)



      "God is not a consolation. God is what you Realize in the
      unconsolable state. God is the Obvious when the self
      contraction is released."

      "In your daily life you should exist in the agony of
      confrontation with the ego. You must have more nerve to
      practice this Way of Life."

      I like this Judi. I've been taking a peek in the closet.
      It's kind of scary 8)~


      Hey, hey, hey,

      anybody else a zig zag idiot? I am. No wait, saying that I
      am means I'm not, right? That's honesty, which implies
      consistency, which means unchanging, which is perfection,
      so I am perfect. Yeah, that's it... Or is it? no, following
      that logic implies that I am zigzagging because I started
      with I am and then I deduced I'm not, so I guess I am.
      (zigzagging) Am I? I don't wanna be... I think I'm growing
      out of it. Yeah, that's it. I'm over it! now I'm not. Yup,
      that is where I stay. no more zig zag. Hmmm... Does that
      mean no more zig or no more zag? I wanna be zig cause that
      sounds cool (david Bowie and all...) But zag is a candy
      bar, and... aw nuts.

      my fingers are mad, but I am sane. I am mad at my fingers
      for being mad, but that's insane. Now my fingers are mad at
      me because I let them know I was mad, but if that's true,
      then I must me mad, so it's reasonable that my fingers are
      mad at me, so they are sane, but that sounds mad, so...

      Oh wait, if in the first paragraph I hadn't implied that
      the phrase "I am" means that I am zigzagging (or anything),
      but just stopped at I am, maybe I wouldn't be mad. or same
      or zig or zag or an idiot or not an idiot or... How nice.

      Does the word idiot predate or post date the concepts of
      ego, id and super ego? Is there a cause and effect
      relationship? I like meaning, so I ascribe it to
      everything. (whether others agree or not....)

      zigzagging away on the thin ice of a new day, Mark

      We are the Nonduality Generation.
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