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Tues./April 25, 2000

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    MU Conciousness. Sweet gift Frail illusion Granted freely Taken swiftly Enjoyed infinitly. Conciousness.
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 26, 2000


      Sweet gift
      Frail illusion
      Granted freely
      Taken swiftly
      Enjoyed infinitly.




      A return to
      ultimate simplicity...

      I am that I am.

      All else is unknown.

      No desire to know anything more...
      No need to know anything more...
      No way to know anything more...
      Nobody to know anything more...

      I am that I am.

      There is only This:

      I Am what I Am.

      Why ask what I Am?

      Is it not enough...
      To BE what I AM?

      What are words, but noise...
      The hissing static of chaos.

      I Am That Which I Am.

      Nothing to gain,
      Nothing to lose,
      Nothing to desire,
      Nothing to renounce.

      I am not bound.
      Nor am I free.


      I Am.

      There is nothing more
      to know than this:

      Whatever I am,
      Indeed, I am That!

      Remaining with That,
      there is only That.
      The total Fullness
      of being what I Am.

      No more questions...
      for which the answers
      are all imagined.

      No more answers...
      for which the questions
      are all imagined.

      Only This:

      Whatever I may be,
      I remain Always.

      What I am is undefined.
      What I am not is undefined.

      Resting in MySelf,
      Everything drops away;
      Only I remain...
      Just what I am.

      I know that I Am.

      Knowing that I Am,
      And only that I Am,
      There is nothing more.



      Just stop for a second.

      Stop the world and get off.

      Don't mistake paste for a diamond.

      If you believe what you've been told,
      you'll be lost forever.

      Forget anything you've heard about it,
      and forget that idea that forgetting
      will get you anywhere.

      Freedom is real.

      It's close at hand.

      But breaking through to freedom
      has little to do with anything
      anyone says to do or not do.

      Only you know what this means.

      To undo the tangled knot,
      unweave yourself.

      Notice what can't be seen,
      hear what isn't a sound,
      feel without touching.


      I think that unless you have spent a minimal amount of time
      with a teacher/guru ie: 5-10 years, you arent in much of a
      position to assess what value the physical presence of a
      Real teacher has,because if you think that all a teacher
      can do is point the way and pray you are seriously



      But it seems that many here are busy weaving the web of
      concepts and ideas yet more tightly about themselves.

      Luckily, webs are full of holes. Perhaps unluckily, they
      are sticky.

      Cocoons may be stifling and often miserable, but they are
      both familiar and comforting to those who have been
      enclosed within for a long time. Many are willing to poke
      their heads out... few are willing to emerge fully and
      leave a cocoon behind permanently.



      I have been reading some of the comments made on the brain
      and consciousness. A group of opinions express that all is
      a concept percieved by consciouness. Whereas some have
      countered this arguement effectively.

      The school of opinion on consciousness says that since we
      are conscious of thoughts, actions and sensations,
      consciousness must be prior to the gross body-mind
      organism. They further go on to say that all other is
      concept since they appear and disappear as one is
      conscious or unconscious. What ever is said is based on the
      consciousness. This type of consciousness is the
      phenomenal consciouness and not the word used in the
      advaitic sense (otherwise we couldn't talk of
      unconsiousness). The fact that some of the opinions talk
      of consciousness and unconsciousness shows about its
      transient nature. Then how can one use a transient concept
      of consciousness to justify that the body-mind is a
      concept? It is nothing but self-delusion.

      Now to the arguement that since consciousness is aware of
      the body-mind it is prior to the body-mind. If we are
      talking of consciousness as in that which percieves the
      phenomena of body-mind as well as that of manifestation
      then we cannot say that it is prior to the body-mind.
      While in so doing we are just concluding something on the
      basis of the causality perceived. It has been found that
      the body reacts to external stimulus before we are
      actually conscious of the cause and the effect. In fact
      the whole scenario of cause and effect gets reconstructed
      after a delay of few hundered milliseconds. So the tricks
      our conscious mind plays may lead us to conclude that
      consciousness exists prior to the body mind. That there is
      something which continues independent of the body-mind.
      But the phenomenal consciousness is due to the body-mind.
      It has been evolved in human life form as part of natural
      selection. Make no mistake when I say consciouness I am
      talking of the phenomenal consciouness and not the
      consciousness in advaitic sense. This phenomenal
      consciousness is a faculty in the brain which can observe
      its own working. This faculty has however a side effect of
      creating a concept of an individual or ego. This is a
      device used by the brain to observe and control behaviour
      of other body-mind organisms for it own survival. The ego
      acts as self referencing entity to compare and understand
      the working of other bodys brain function. If at all there
      is a concept it is this concept of ego which is built up
      and given the role of a doer. The clear seeing into the
      working of this brain-consci ouness-manifestation could be
      called realization. Realization of the fact that there is
      no doer of action one or another. This understanding will
      inhibit any further growth of the concept of ego. However
      the self-referral entity has to conitnue as long as the
      body exists as it is the product of the bodily existence.

      Now there are a lot of confessor on this list. I would like
      to know what they feel about the concept that has been

      JODY Responds:

      Realization occurs when Self recognizes Self, and the mind
      sees that it is really nothing. The mind "knows" the fact
      of its own non-existence.

      GREG GOODE Responds:

      hank you for your posting. You make the valuable point that
      in these discussions about consciousness and the brain,
      there has been equivocation about the term 'consciousness.'
      Sometimes absolute consciousness is being talked about,
      and sometimes the waking-state consciousness is being
      talked about. Advaita is extremely clear on the
      distinction between these two:

      (1) Om/Brahman/Atman/Self

      absolute consciousness (2) Jagarita-Sthana waking state

      We could perhaps say that the brain is prior to (2), but
      not to (1). [Unimportant side-point: I say *perhaps* prior
      to (2). Perhaps the brain being prior to (2) is not so
      defensible, since all the claims and arguments are being
      made from within the scope of the Jagarita-Sthana itself.]

      [Back to the main point] If we look at the usual Western
      explanations of mind/body/world, most often we encounter
      claims that the brain is anterior or prior to waking-state

      Then what about the brain and *absolute* consciousness? I'm
      not sure if anyone on this list seriously argued that the
      brain is anterior to the Self or *absolute* consciousness.
      Rather, it is usually at this point that unclarity and
      equivocation can take place, where the meaning slips back
      and forth between the two meanings of "consciousness."

      Advaita is very clear that no object in the person, mind,
      body, or world can be prior to absolute consciousness.
      Ironically enough, as you hint, Asta_vakra, the very
      argument that the brain is prior to absolute consciousness
      is seen in advaita as confirming the primacy of absolute
      consciousness!! As for advaita's theory about the brain
      versus the waking state, there are different theories
      accounting for the world, not all of them mentino the
      brain. One theory in fact argues eloquently against any
      kind of causation ever taking place among phenomena - it is
      Gaudapada's "ajata-vada" or theory of non-causation as
      presented in the Mandukya Upanishad. It is a bit similar to
      Western philosopher David Hume's theory on non-causality
      as presented in his _Enquiry Concerning Human

      Thanks for bringing out this helpful and essential
      distinction in the discussions!

      (editor's note: the conversation is extended in three
      further posts. Please see Nonduality Salon Archives.)


      When I was younger, I had a number of rhetorical questions
      which seem to be coming back now as very real answers.

      One, could it be that God is just having a dream, and it is
      me? Two, Love is just his sentiment for himself?

      The second of those had me preocupied... an ego thing I
      guess, jealousy, remember, I was young!!

      With respect to this second question, we have always been
      taught not to be selfish or egotistical or self-centered,
      and then it seemed that the very God himself was all of
      those. But those were distortions of a young mind. How
      could I not see that I was separate, a little boy that
      needed love. Love was what I felt wrapped in the arms of a

      That love was programmed before I was born. It has
      characteristics, ingrained to the species. Other life
      elements have ingrained characteristics. hunger, sexual
      drive etc. etc.

      But these rhetorical questions strangely enough started to
      become the only logical answers to so many impossible
      realities, all the doubts and questions that we have here
      on NDS for example sometimes seem to cloud the issues,
      leave more doubt. We remain floating in this world of
      "meaningless words" the poor ego waiting for some answer,
      arms to embrace it and make it feel better.

      But the love of a father / mother is different. It is not
      that which is embraced, it is that which embraces. It is an
      unconditional giving. What would that be like if you were
      the father and the son.

      What grace!

      What more could you ask?


      ...I am not enlightened... --Neo

      Are you really really positively certain about that? If so,
      where does that certainty come from? Are you comparing
      your image of yourself with your image of yourself as you
      would be? Both of these images are only images... How are
      you able to say with certainty that you are not
      enlightened? --Andrew Macnab


      Michael asked: How do we transcend, pass beyond the limits,
      of mind completely?

      Mark Otter replied: good question, but like all questions,
      a product of mind. lose your mind (go mad, dive in)
      surrender to the cooking pot. You can't do it. It happens
      when you let your guard down. Use your mind until it's
      completely exhausted, or quiet your mind until it's
      completely quiet or... lose your job, your family, your
      belongings, your very reason for living, the then notice
      what a lovely day it is... It just is. nothing to do,
      nowhere to go, no harm to come. It's already happened. Have
      you noticed it? words point until they get bored pointing
      and become nonsense - fluff, they float away. That's fine
      too. remember how it was before you had a mind. don't mind
      your mind. it's mindless I know, I'm just babbling, but I
      like the sound of running water. What's it running from,
      where's it going to? It doesn't care, just down. Don't
      worry about falling. everything's falling. falling is
      natural. there's no bottom. how lovely. fine. very fine.

      P.S. All this talk about supper is making me hungry. I
      think I am at the stage where I'm realizing that hunger has
      merit in itself. I've always rushed to eat whenever I'm
      hungry, and the hunger never got the chance to tell me what
      it knows. I think I may fast awhile now...
      SSSSHHHHHhhhhhhh..... ah yes.



      How does one go beyond ego mind without a physical
      spiritual teacher? Ego filters all that we read and all
      that we hear. If there is no one to challenge ego how will
      we know the truth?



      I typed up a few pages from Oddo's book for the Nondual
      Daily Nugget today. It is about a dangerous encounter. In
      fact, there are a few such stories in the book:

      And here are some more excerpts from his book. It sounds
      very NDS to me:

      The greatest game the mind plays is to search for itself by
      observing its own workings. Spiritual paths lead one into
      a quagmire of investigation, and you cannot go beyond the
      limitations of the mind, but using this same mind to
      dicipher your true nature -- you merely build a concept to
      embrace, and spend your precious time in its shadow.


      We all establish artificial criteria to order the
      importance of our life...


      Remember that most teachers and masters started off
      confused and ignorant. Their condition provided a catalyst
      for change, and also a perspective from which to teach.
      Everyone has the same equal opportunity to reorder their
      priorities, and thus allow their consciousness to evolve
      into deeper understanding, and bring remembrance of their
      true nature within life's expression. Your integrity and
      sincerity are the key to spiritual growth...


      I'm jumping in here –my first time. I wanted to respond to
      the spiritual teacher question. In my experience there is
      no substitute for a teacher – a living teacher. I find it
      is practically guaranteed that I will delude myself even
      when I have the help of my teacher, let alone when I don't
      have help. I know it's very un-hip these days to be so
      naïve as to trust a teacher, and I suppose that's not
      surprising when you consider the track record of spiritual
      teachers over the last twenty years, but what if……imagine
      this……what if you could find a teacher that you did trust?


      We feel fundamentally victimized by our own egos, by our
      own experience of life. If you step back and look at it
      objectively it's pretty crazy. Nevertheless I find that
      this is the greatest challenge in trying to live a
      different kind of life - to step out of that craziness.
      It's pretty shocking to see how much I prefer craziness
      over freedom when push comes to shove.


      Of course there is the element of grace in a relationship
      with a true teacher, manifesting in who knows how many
      ways. But there's also the very non-esoteric unmysterious
      element of being set straight in no uncertain terms by one
      who sees exactly what you're really up to most of the
      time. Also the element of sincere and dedicated spiritual
      practice under his/her instruction. There's so much new
      age airy-fairy kind of Dharma out there these days and I
      think it's very confusing and misleading for people who
      are trying to find something real.



      I'm not saying teachers don't work. I'm contending that
      they are not necessary in every case. A good teacher is a
      deep blessing, but one that isn't available to all. If you
      asked me, the best tactic one can employ is devotion.
      Simply surrendering oneself to their own higher good is
      about the best thing one can "do".

      I've been initiated for about 10 years, practicing for 17,
      and I lived in an ashram for a year. All this means exactly
      doodly squat. My guru is aware enough to know that all he
      can do is point and pray. His advice to me all along has
      been to pray and meditate. He told me nothing I hadn't
      already surmised myself, and he gave me all the room I
      needed to practice in whatever way my heart directed me

      As I said, I've been blessed with a guru and wonderful
      teachers, some of whom post to this list. However, neither
      guru nor teachers would ever take one microgram of credit,
      knowing full well that all the credit goes to Mother.



      That there is not a brain or any other objects should be
      clear. I do suppose it depends on your concept of brain or
      how you define it. Here are some reasons, IMO, why the
      brain and objects do not exist:

      1. There appears to be no solid matter. 2. The brain is not
      separate. It is connected to the rest of the body and from
      there to the universe. 3. The brain is in constant flux
      from instant to instant so what you call the brain in one
      instant is totally different the next. 4. It is a
      projection of mind.

      There are probably more but in any discussion like this it
      ultimately comes down to varying beliefs. Neo does not
      exist either for the same reasons. As to how words appear
      here, it is a very complex exchanges of energy (for lack of
      a better expression) that is far beyond the limited
      beliefs of "neo". In other words "I" do not know.



      We need not worry how we will know the Truth or how the ego
      can know the Truth, etc.

      How can anyone really know the Truth as a separate entity?
      Is the Truth an object to be known? We can Be the Truth
      because We Are the Truth. That is our Original Nature.
      Truth Knows ItSelf.



      ACIM - First Ten Lessons - excerpts

      1. Nothing I see means anything. Look slowly around you
      and practice applying this idea very specifically to
      whatever you see. "This table does not mean anything." etc.

      2. I have given everything I see all the meaning it has for
      me. Remain as indiscriminate as possible in selecting
      specific subjects...

      3. I do not understand anything I see in this place. The
      point of the exercises is to help clear your mind of all
      past associations. It is essential that you keep an open

      4. These thoughts do not mean anything. They are like the
      things I see in this place. Begin with nothing the thoughts
      that are crossing your mind. Use 'good' thoughts as well
      as 'bad'. None of them represents your real thoughts,
      which are being covered up by them. "This thought does not
      mean anything."

      5. I am never upset for the reason I think. Until you learn
      that form does not matter, each form becomes a proper
      subject for the exercises for the day. "I am not afraid for
      the reason I think." etc.

      6. I am upset because I see something that is not there. "I
      cannot keep this form of upset and let the others go. For
      the purposes of these exercises, then, I will regard them
      all as the same."

      7. I see only the past. This idea ... is the rationale for
      all the preceding ones. Everything you believe is rooted in
      time. "I see only the past in this shoe, this hand, etc."

      8. My mind is preoccupied with past thoughts. No one really
      sees anything. He sees only his thoughts projected
      outward. ... Your mind cannot grasp the present which is
      the only time there is. It therefore ... cannot, in fact,
      understand anything. "I seem to be thinking about _______
      but my mind is preoccupied with past thoughts."

      9. I see nothing as it is now. The recognition that you do
      not understand is a prerequisite for undoing your false
      ideas. ... It is difficult for the untrained mind to
      believe that what it seems to picture is not there. This
      idea can be quite disturbing and may meet with active
      resistance in any number of forms. Yet that does not
      preclude applying it. "I do not see this computer as it is
      now." etc...

      10. My thoughts do not mean anything at all. The reason the
      idea is applicable to all the thoughts of which you are
      aware is that they are not your real thoughts. When you
      have a basis for comparison you will have no doubt that
      what you once believed were your thoughts did not mean
      anything. "This idea will help to release me from all I now


      12. I am upset because I see a meaningless world. You think
      that what upsets you is a frightening world, or a sad
      world, or a violent world, or an insane world. All these
      attributes are given it by you. The world is meaningless in

      13. A meaningless world engenders fear. Recognition of
      meaninglessness arouses intense anxiety in all the
      separated ones. It represents a situation in which God and
      the ego "challenge" each other as to whose meaning is to be
      written in the empty space that meaninglessness provides.
      The ego rushes in frantically to establish its own idea
      there, fearful that the void may otherwise be used to
      demonstrate its own impotence and unreality. And on this
      alone is it correct.


      this is my favorite quote from the Gurgieff group:

      Student: What is the enneagram?

      Teacher: It shows which kind of idiot you are.


      Quietness is the surest sign that you're dying Your old
      life was a frantic running from silence.


      When you are silent, His speech is your speech. When you
      don't weave, the weaver will be He.



      How do we transcend, pass beyond the limits, of mind
      completely? --Michael

      Show me the mind and I will show you how to transcend it :)




      I sat through "The Matrix" again last night. Upon a second
      viewing I came away with a new appreciation for it's value
      as an allegory and saw the error in my earlier critiques.

      There is one major flaw in the representation, but if one
      forgives the paradigm presented to us by the writers, the
      story itself walks along the same lines as those we walk on

      Neo represented the seeker to me. The flaw in the allegory
      was that "the One" was one person. That's what I was stuck
      on before. However, if we see Neo to represent ourselves,
      the seekers and devotees, the story works very well.

      Neo came to his "Oneness" by realizing a simple truth, that
      the computer program he was in was perfectly plastic and
      easily manipulated. He struggled fiercely up until the
      point he realized. Upon his awakening, he saw how simple it
      all is, and how he had it all along.

      That's where the allegory holds true. It really is simple,
      and we really do have it all the time.

      Now if we could only jump 500 miles at a time. . .


      MU Responds:

      You can do ANYTHING. It scares people though. Be gentle.

      No matter how people appear to the normal eye They Glow!

      ++++++++++++++++++ Shush! Be still.

      Ohhhh! Fear nothing.

      Ahhhh! I AM THAT LOVE!
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