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Wed./April 19

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    NEO: For the past 3 days something strange has been happening to me. It started with the message from Mary re ACIM. During the message and my ¤responding to
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 21, 2000
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      NEO: For the past 3 days something strange has been
      happening to me. It started with the message from Mary re
      ACIM. During the message and my ¤responding to it I dropped
      my belief system. All words depend on beliefs and words
      became meaningless. Thought depends on words and thought is
      becoming meaningless. my mind is getting very quiet. I feel
      very strange. I have been here before but it is somehow
      different now. The water running over my hands as i washed
      them felt so alive.

      JAN B.: What you described is not strange at all, Neo - it
      is the process of de-identification. Meaning and purpose do
      only exist in the one seeing them, for the sake of argument
      that one could be called a "local identity" but yogis would
      attribute it to "consciousness in the chakras". So when a
      local identity comes into sight, fully gets known and is in
      a sense left behind, meaning and purpose temporarily are
      suspended, states of void and or bliss can arise, then
      disappear again and how the experience is interpreted will
      depend on what could be called one's safety net. When going
      through the process consciously, it can be recognized the
      next times, until nothing remains to de-identify and mind
      remains empty.

      ____________________________________________________________

      Neo: "How do you know consciousness is present in deep
      sleep if your are not aware of it? How do you know that
      this is not just a belief system of yours? How do you know
      it is not just part of the spiritual/religious psychosis?"

      MIGUE ANGEL: Of course it is a belief system. Everything
      is. Even the idea that the world exists is a belief. All
      our ideas are beliefs. Except one: I am. From this one
      fact, one can construct either of two main belief-frames:
      1) the world is out there, existing by itself; or 2) I am
      consciousness and the world appears in me. If you take path
      1 then you are either a matelialist or a dualist. If you
      take path 2 then you are a non-dualist. It is up to you to
      choose.

      But I think there are more reasons in favour of 1 than of
      2: If I can say I am, that means I am consciousness.
      Otherwise, how can I say it? And if the world is outside
      consciousness, how is it that I know it? What is not in
      consciousness (=what exists outside consciousness) cannot
      be in consciousness (=cannot be known). So the very fact
      that I know the world implies that it is in me, in
      consciousness.

      Neo: "How do you know consciousness is present in deep
      sleep if your are not aware of it?"

      MIGUEL: One cannot be conscious of consciousness itself.
      Because it is not an object that could be observed. But I
      can deduct that it is present even in deep sleep. For me,
      by definition, consciousness is the ultimate subject, that
      in what all objects come to exist. One is conscious only of
      objects, and, indirectly, also of being conscious of
      objects. But one is never conscious of not perceiving
      anything. If you follow the belief-frame 2, then you
      believe that consciousness is the screen where everything
      appears. That screen oberves the images appearing on it,
      and is also conscious of observing them, but does not
      observe itself. There is no such thing as
      self-contemplation.

      What we do find difficult to imagine is the state of
      consciousness without objects. Because while it lasts it is
      not felt. You are the screen, even if you cannot see the
      screen, even when nothing appears on the screen. You never
      cease to be.

      I would venture to say that the state of "deep sleep" does
      not only occur during sleep What is deep sleep? The
      cesation of all mental activity. Well, as I said in another
      post, that can also happen awake. In meditation, between
      two thoughts. Your mind is not always constantly active.
      There are brief interruptions, short rests. When you don't
      think of anything or feel anything. Are you conscious then?
      You are, though not conscious of being conscious.

      __________________________________________________________

      DAN: If words are used with no-game awareness, then nothing
      gets caught in the word game. Once it's interpreted as
      being a game or being a no-game game, it's a game. If it's
      not interpreted, it's exactly as it is.

      ED: Does 'caught in the word game' suggest it has some
      fixed interpretation?

      If yes, then, you will be heartened to learn that the
      entire issue of the 'game' and 'no-game awareness' has
      <joyously> passed into oblivion.

      Is there something else we can talk about? :-)

      ___________________________________________________________

      DAN: Hi Ed - Would it be good for the world to know the
      no-game reality? Or would it be the end of the game of good
      against bad?

      ED:Dan, Perhaps the question should be: can we play the
      game from the no-game POV...and play the no-game from the
      game perspective...just to make life more playful? <e>

      DAN:Hi Ed. For me, it's the ending of game awareness.

      ED:Hello Dan. The word "game" is another label. So as long
      as words are used, there is a label 'game' being played. It
      can be called something else but that doesn't end the label
      game. So to end "game awareness" one would have to cease
      communicating, or so it seems.

      I'm saving that moment for my end-game, my last
      breath...what are your plans? :-)

      DAN: If words are used with no-game awareness, then nothing
      gets caught in the word game.

      Ending game-awareness isn't a matter of whether words are
      used or not. It's a matter of how words are viewed while
      using, how memory is used, how associations are used, how
      projection occurs and is used.

      This is the first and last breath.
      ____________________________________________________________

      JUDI RHODES

      Good Morning Everybody!

      In follow up to the posts on self acceptance and allowing
      ourselves to see into who we really are, the following is
      written by Pema Chodron, a Buddhist nun in Nova Scotia,
      from her book The Wisdom of No Escape, that Michael Read,
      from Portland, bought me as a present yesterday when he was
      here visiting me this week. We had a wonderful time by the
      way, enjoying each others company, walking thru this
      fairyland of love together.

      Michael is a delight, I miss him already! Jerry, btw, I
      took him to your fav restaurant! :-)

      Anyway, here it is....

      There's a common misunderstanding among all the human
      beings who have ever been born on the earth that the best
      way to live is to try to avoid pain and just try to get
      comfortable. You can see this even in insects and animals
      and birds. All of us are the same.

      A much more interesting, kind, adventurous, and joyful
      approach to life is to begin to develop our curiosity, not
      caring whether the object of our inquisitiveness is bitter
      or sweet. To lead a life that goes beyond pettiness and
      prejudice and always wanting to make sure that everything
      turns out on our own terms, to lead to a more passionate,
      full and delightful life than that, we must realize that we
      can endure a lot of pain and pleasure for the sake of
      finding out who we are and what this world is, how we tick
      and how our world ticks, how the whole thing just 'is'. If
      we're committed to comfort at any cost, as soon as we come
      up against the least edge of pain, we're going to run;
      we'll never know what's beyond that particular barrier or
      wall or fearful thing.

      When people start to meditate or to work with any kind of
      spiritual discipline, they often think that somehow they're
      going to improve, which is a sort of subtle aggression
      against who they really are. It's a bit like saying, "If I
      jog, I'll be a much better person" "If I could only get a
      nicer house, I'd be a better person." "If I could
      meditatate and calm down, I'd be a better person." Or the
      scenario may be that they find fault with others; they
      might say "If it weren't for my husband, I'd have a perfect
      marriage." "If it weren't for the fact that my boss and I
      can't get on, my job would be just great." And if it
      weren't for my mind, my meditation would be excellent."

      But loving kindness toward ourselves doesn't mean getting
      rid of anything. It means that we can still be crazy after
      all these years. We can still be angry after all these
      years. We can still be timid or jealous or full of feelings
      of unworthiness. The point is not to try to change
      ourselves. Meditation practice isn't about trying to throw
      ourselves away and become something better. It's about
      befriending who we are already. The ground of practice is
      you or me or whoever we are right now, just as we are.
      That's the ground, that's what we study, that's what we
      come to know with tremendous curiosity and interest.

      Sometimes among Buddhists the word 'ego' is used in a
      derogatory sense, with a differnet connotation than the
      Freudian term. As Buddhists, we might say, "My ego causes
      me so many problems." Then we might think , "Well then,
      we're supposed to get rid of it, right? Then there'd be no
      problem." On the contrary, the idea isn't to get rod of ego
      but actually to begin to take an interest in ourselves, to
      investigate and be inquisitive about ourselves.

      Inquisitiveness or curiosity involves being gentle,
      precise, and open - actually being able to let go and open.
      Gentleness is a sense of goodheartedness toward ourselves.
      Precision is being able to see very clearly, not being
      afraid to see what's really there, just as a scientist is
      not afraid to look into the microscope. Openness is being
      able to let go and to open.

      _______________________________________________________

      DAVID HODGES

      Thought some of you might enjoy this. It is from the Onion:
      http://www.theonion.com Somehow it reminds me of Gene's
      writing! :-)

      New 'Time' To Keep Everything From Happening At Once

      CAMBRIDGE, MA--On what is now known as "Monday," a team of
      MIT scientists unveiled "time," a revolutionary new
      event-sequencing protocol which organizes phenomena along a
      four-dimensional axis, preventing everything from taking
      place at once. "No longer will the extinction of the
      dinosaurs, the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the
      Earth-Xabraxiq Pod Wars all collapse into a single point,"
      theoretical physicist Dr. Lawrence Chang said. "With time,
      we can now contextualize each of the universe's infinite
      number of occurrences in its own spatial-temporal plane,
      creating order where there once was chaos." Added Dr. Erno
      Toffel: "Using time, one event can be positioned
      chronologically so as to be the cause of another. For
      example, a man's death may result in a gun being fired at
      him. Or the other way around. We're still working out some
      of the kinks."
      ______________________________________________________

      MARCIA

      The world isn't meaningless but the meaning is not to found
      in head games or belief systems.

      There are other languages besides that of the head.

      And while we are talking <s> time has more than one
      dimension. It isn't "either" successive time "or"
      simultaneous time but "both" are contained within a volume
      of eternity. Either/or is duality.

      _________________________________________________________

      MARCIA

      from a description of Madame de Salzmann in the Gurdjieff
      International Review

      "One day, I asked Madame de Salzmann a question that gnawed
      at me constantly, for it was connected to all my major
      decisions in life. On the surface, all seemed balanced and
      harmonious, and I certainly had no right to complain. But,
      deep down, nothing could quench a sense of meaninglessness,
      both in my own activities and in the world around me—yet to
      solve this by breaking away or dropping out seemed arrogant
      and futile. It was a personal version of the ancient
      dilemma of determining what belongs to Caesar and what
      truly belongs to that “something else.” “I have an inner
      search that I cherish and respect but also a work in life
      for which I am grateful and cannot despise. Both seem
      valuable, but in different ways,” I said. “What can help me
      to assess how much I should legitimately give to each, so
      as to maintain a balance?” She looked at me for a moment,
      then answered quite simply, “Come back at nine o’clock
      tonight.” When I returned, to my bewilderment it was not to
      resume our conversation but to find myself included with
      others in a session that she guided, leading step by step
      to a complete silence.

      I had expected something to be said that would clarify my
      question; only as time went by did I see how precise and
      practical her seemingly indirect answer had been. It was
      the answer of direct experience. It became clear that it is
      the quality of silent wakefulness, informing and uniting
      the organism from moment to moment, that gives meaning to
      each choice and to every action. On an ordinary level of
      awareness, all choices will suffer from one’s lack of true
      vision, and as I had so often painfully experienced, we
      torture ourselves with decisions that in fact we are in no
      position to take. The purer the inner state, the clearer
      the vision. That evening she led us step by step to taste
      what that state might be and how in it contradictions can
      be resolved and priorities become real. In a cruder state,
      all arguments are valid because all choices are the same.
      The enigma is how to discover what can lead us to another,
      deeper, truer state. I still believed that somehow or other
      I could fabricate this state for myself, and I had to face
      the awkward truth that even this natural desire can become
      the greatest of obstacles; even the sincerest of wishes can
      block that special opening toward which all aspiration
      tends. Effort only has a place if it leads to a mystery
      called noneffort, and then if for a short instant one’s
      perception is transformed, this is an act of grace.
      Although grace cannot be attained, it may sometimes be
      granted. One has to let go of the leaf to which one is
      clinging, but it takes no more than another leaf to blow by
      for one to drop again into the usual state of confusion."

      ________________________________________________________

      MARY: But the real hindrance to awakening for me is that I
      don't wanna disappear...not yet.

      DAVE:Funny how it is, don't know if I'm still hanging on to
      something, but although I know that "I" am just part of a
      dream, and that "I" doesn't exist apart from the dreamer,
      awareness hasn't disappeared, on the contrary, it is much
      less cluttered.

      In the two major paradigm shifts of my life, experiencing
      "I AM" and "seeing that I was just a dream", nothing that
      was before my eyes changed, but in each case the perception
      of it changed.

      What I felt in the first instance, "I AM", shifted to "AM",
      and the manifestation of "me" is delighted in helping to
      restore the unity to the separation that never happened.

      I AM, but not as me. Could care less (I know my wife has
      another opinion, dear sweet and understanding soul that she
      is). Perhaps it's better to jump off the cliff, better than
      sliding down on your stomach.

      Don't worry about disappearing, it's not that it all goes
      away, its that it takes on a different aspect, the
      manifestation of "you" leads you to its source, taking
      everything in your dream with it. Isn't that just an
      incredible possibility?!

      ________________________________________________________

      Mathew 3:13-15

      "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be
      baptized of him.

      But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of
      thee, and comest thou to me?

      And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
      for thus it becommeth us to fulfill al righteous- ness.
      Then he suffered him."

      MARCIA: I have always found this passage to be of
      significance. To me John represents the seeker, the voice
      crying in the wilderness, the one trying to do the right
      thing, seeking to follow the rules, wanting to go Home,
      recognizing Christ consciousness. Jesus tells him.....
      "Suffer me." What does this mean?

      GLORIA LEE:Probably the same sense of suffer as in "Suffer
      the little children to come unto me and forbid them not."
      Suffer means allow this. Baptise me to fullfill the
      prophecy. Because when he does, the voice of God of
      announces, "This is my beloved son" the Dove of the Holy
      Spirit descends upon him..this is the one, the one whose
      coming you have been announcing by crying in the
      wilderness.

      Just as later the disciples protested he should not wash
      their feet, Jesus being so much greater than them, yet he
      says he has come to serve and they must "allow" him to wash
      them.

      _________________________________________________________

      NEO:The scientific belief model says yes, the quasi-Eastern
      model says no. These are beliefs. I have no belief now one
      way or the other. I do not see how the question can be
      proved one way or the other. When you say the brain is not
      the source for awareness, how can you prove that?

      MIRA:What will be your proof that you have received
      acceptable proof? How can you prove the very source that
      enables (you) to either reject or accept proof? Looking for
      proof that the "the brain is the source for awareness" (or
      vice versa), happens when you take on a position that proof
      can be found in some other location than here, where you
      are. This question can only be raised when speaking from a
      position that there is something outside yourself,
      something away from you, that is able to reveal itself to
      you as a legitimate authority, in order to satisfy you with
      "proof". Now again, what will be your proof that you have
      received the correct evidence?

      __________________________________________________________

      MELODY

      Today....as I began aligning with the energy of Easter, I
      re-read the verses on the Lord's Supper:

      "While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and
      broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying "Take it;
      this is my body."

      Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them,
      and they all drank from it.

      "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured our for
      many, " he said to them, "I tell you the truth, I will not
      drink again of the fruit of the vine until the day when I
      drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

      When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of
      Olives.

      "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is
      written:

      " ' I will strike the shepherd and the sheep will be
      scattered. '

      But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into
      Galilee."

      Peter declared, "Even if all fall away, I will not."

      "I tell you the truth, " Jesus answered, "today - yes
      tonight - before the rooster crows twice you yourself will
      disown me three times"

      But Peter insisted emphatically, "Even if I have to die
      with you, I will never disown you." And all the others said
      the same thing. " Mark 14: 22-31

      I cry as I read this as part of Holy Thursday preparation.

      I cry, as Peter, as Judas, as all who deny the Son of Man
      ....out of fear and ignorance.

      Today seems a good day to rest in forgiveness.....in self
      acceptance .....opening to a truly abiding heart.

      ___________________________________________________________

      Dan, what is your belief about consciousness? It would also
      be nice to hear from xan and Mary as well as anyone
      interested. What do you believe about awareness and/or
      consciousness?

      neo

      MARY: Dear Neo, I'm going through a similar phase as
      you....looking at my beliefs (or as Katie says it "stories"
      Everything is just your story about you and about what you
      perceive as other.) And as I look at what is being written,
      I see it as another story, another belief. You are all my
      story of you. Byron Katie said - God is. All else is just a
      story of what God is not.

      And then she would even inquire about that. God is....can
      you really know it's true? No. Without direct revelation or
      experience I can't know that. And anything said about that
      experience is just again my story about it. I'm learning
      that I'm making everything up as I tell my story about you
      and this world. It's all made up. Can I REALLY know that's
      true? No, I can't REALLY know that. .....and so.. some
      silence comes.

      Someone (I forget who) said : Consciousness is
      self-deception. (and that's just his story)
      _________________________________________________________

      JODY

      Enlightenment is always sudden. It is grace; when the
      conditions are right, it happens. But the path leading up
      to that moment is gradual. We practice, we create the
      field, we prepare the ground, and the mind eventually opens
      suddenly and spontaneously. Then again, after sudden
      awakening can come a gradual cultivation and ripening of
      the enlightened mind.

      - Joseph Goldstein

      __________________________________________________________

      XAN: You (Neo)said in one of your posts to Dan, you are
      wondering if consciousness originates in the brain. This is
      the belief of the majority of brain scientists. You said
      this is a contrary view among non-dualists, which is to be
      expected since the brain is a form in duality - brain vs no
      brain.

      You also mentioned a Peak Experience as opposed to a
      universal experience.

      These are my thoughts in response:

      Supposing the brain is the source of consciousness, what is
      the source of the brain?

      Peak experiences do have a wide variety of expressions, so,
      what of silent emptiness? How varied can that be?

      __________________________________________________________

      XAN

      Whenever I am on the verge of a new breakthrough in
      conscousness the mind resists and puts up a fuss until
      deepening happens. Blessedly I don't react to mind's
      reactions much anymore.

      __________________________________________________________

      ANDREW

      The zen monk Dogen wrote and thought very profoundly about
      nondual time in his big book Shobogenzo, especially in the
      chapter entitled Uji. He's a bit tough to follow, but
      rewarding. Part of what he said could be summarised thus;

      Time itself is being, and all being is time. Being,
      consciousness, and time are identical. See each thing in
      this entire world as a moment of time. The self is time.
      Time is not separate from you. The entire cosmos is time ,
      it is not unchangeable, is not immoveable. It flows and
      does not flow. Both mind and words are time. There is
      nothing that arises outside of time. There is absolutely no
      difference between time and any object you see around you,
      or between time and you yourself.

      The best online piece I've found on Dogen is here;
      http://www.zenki.com/time01.htm#DIOT


      __________________________________________________________

      GENE POOLE

      How to Open and Oyster


      If it is pearls you want
      Or just meat
      Opening an oyster
      Can be difficult

      Gulls fly high
      Clutching the oyster
      Then drop it on a rock
      It shatters

      Starfish engulf
      With many arms
      And forcefully
      Open the shell

      Humans
      Use a knife
      To pry the shell
      To obtain the contents

      Another way
      To open the oyster
      Is to place it in a bath
      Of nutrient rich water

      ------------------------------------------------

      Consciousness \Con"scious*ness\, n. 1. The state of being
      conscious; knowledge of one's own existence, condition,
      sensations, mental operations, acts, etc.

      Consciousness is thus, on the one hand, the recognition by
      the mind or ``ego'' of its acts and affections; -- in other
      words, the self-affirmation that certain modifications are
      known by me, and that these modifications are mine. --Sir
      W. Hamilton.

      2. Immediate knowledge or perception of the presence of any
      object, state, or sensation. See the Note under
      {Attention}.

      Annihilate the consciousness of the object, you annihilate
      the consciousness of the operation. --Sir W. Hamilton.

      And, when the steam Which overflowed the soul had passed
      away, A consciousness remained that it had left. . . .
      images and precious thoughts That shall not die, and can
      not be destroyed. --Wordsworth.

      The consciousness of wrong brought with it the
      consciousness of weakness. --Froude.

      3. Feeling, persuasion, or expectation; esp., inward sense
      of guilt or innocence. [R.]

      An honest mind is not in the power of a dishonest: to break
      its peace there must be some guilt or consciousness.
      --Pope.

      ________________________________________________________

      I have no doubt in this silent loving awareness. I know
      it to be perfect and eternal. Everything else is up for
      grabs

      love xan

      My view today is that this silent awareness which is who I
      am, allows (suffers) love and eternity, but in itself
      resists characterization.

      Larry
      ________________________________________________________

      GLORIA LEE

      Believe it or not, from Harshasatsangh.

      Perspective on Life: George Costanza.

      "The most unfair thing about life is the way it ends. I
      mean, life is tough. It takes up a lot of your time. What
      do you get at the end of it? A death. What's that, a bonus?
      I think the life cycle is all backwards. You should die
      first, get it out of the way. Then you live in an old age
      home. You get kicked out when you're too young, you get a
      gold watch, you go to work. You work forty years until
      you're young enough to enjoy your retirement. You drink
      alcohol, you party, you get ready for high school. You go
      to grade school, you become a kid, you play, you have no
      responsibilities, you become a little baby, you go back
      into the womb, you spend your last nine months floating
      ........ then you finish off as an orgasm."


      _____________________________________________________
      We are the Nonduality Generation.
      http://www.nonduality.com
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