#3140 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - Editor: Jerry Katz
- #3140 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - Editor: Jerry Katz
Nonduality Highlights - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlightsEight more responses to the following question:QUESTION (sender is anonymous):I am having difficulty with something that Nisargadatta Maharaj is quoted as saying:"Once you know that the body alone dies and not the continuity of memory and the sense of I am
reflected in it, you are afraid no longer."Surely when the body dies there can be no memory as there is no instrument to cognize with. The
brain holds the memory which is made up of mindstuff, and when that dies surely there can be no
persistence of memory?Maybe the quote is a translation mistake?I know that we are the one beingness and always will be that, but in my experience it is a state of
no thing,and no knowing.Are you able to enlighten me on this point?~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~The question was originally posted in issue 3130: http://nonduality.com/hl3130.htm, with my response.The initial batch of reader responses was featured in issue 3132: http://nonduality.com/hl3132.htmWhat follows is the second collection of responses.Peter DziubanHi Jerry,
Just saw the posting about memory and dying...here's a response which
some may find interesting. In this case, the example refers to being
"knocked unconscious" instead of dying... This is an excerpt from
Consciousness Is All, chap 5, "Consciousness is not the human mind."
Best regards, PeterThe following is from Consciousness Is All: Now Life Is Completely New
by Peter Francis Dziuban: http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-All-Now-Life-Completely/dp/1577332024/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427984&sr=1-1
"If Consciousness is conscious, is present, even when the body is
`knocked out,' then why isn't there any memory of the experience?" the
thought may insist.
Well, exactly what is memory anyway? Memory is entirely a function
of thought or a sensing mentality—it has nothing to do with Infinite
Consciousness, pure Being. They're not the same at all. Memory is
merely the projected thought of people, objects, places, feelings;
myriad images—all of which are mental forms.
The capacity to project these finite mental images is what has
stopped, not Infinite Consciousness, undimensional I-Presence. Don't
confuse projected thought forms with formless Consciousness—just as
you never confuse the moving images on a movie screen with the screen
itself. Consciousness as It is being doesn't involve thinking; so It
doesn't involve memory or project thoughts of past or future. It is a
state of pure Is. Consciousness simply never leaves being present—and
one cannot have a memory of the present.
As It is present only, Consciousness Itself never jumps back or ahead
in time, past or future. Thinking seems to project thoughts of past or
future, but that's thinking doing that, not Awareness being.
Awareness cannot have a memory of having been. Why? Its only
state is that of being present. Because Awareness changelessly is, It
can't become something that was. It can't look back upon Itself
because It's not back—It's present!
This Present-ness that Awareness is, is exactly the same as not being
able to have a memory of now. It simply is not possible to say you
have a memory of the now that is now, because it's not past—it's now!
As further proof that pure Awareness is not in the realm of memory,
notice that It can't be memorized.
The would-be finite "thinking mind" based on the senses and time is
incapable of coming up with any thought, any finite mental form to
express this undeniable Truth. You "glimpse" or be your own
Infinity—and the constantly running finite mind stops dead in its tracks.
Yet You don't stop. You still are very real and present as the
permanent Now that pure Consciousness is. Life, Being, is present. You
simply have nothing objective to You. You don't identify with any
form, but only as the formless Infinity of Your Self—pure unthinkable
This completely un-finite, unlimited "vastness" that pure
Consciousness is, is why It is in some traditions called "emptiness"
or "no-mind." It sometimes is called nothingness. That really means
no-thing-ness, because that's exactly what It is—pure Consciousness
alone, apart from finite things. Rather than being a nothing,
Consciousness is specific vital Presence—just without a form.
Only a state of limited thinking based on the finite senses would
insist on experiencing some observable form or phenomenon, would
want to be able to point to it and say, "I had that experience."
As Pure Consciousness, You never are the same as any experience
you appear to have. All experience would be what one appears to be
conscious of on a finite basis. The Infinite Consciousness You are is
not an experience that is objective to You.
You've just shown yourself the difference between Consciousness
Itself, and what appears. You are out of the realm of limited form. In
Truth, Your Consciousness never was in it. So never look for, or wait
to have the "big spiritual experience," whatever that might be. Never
wait for any type of time-event or finite phenomenon, to verify that
you finally have "arrived." You never will arrive at Infinite
Consciousness because You never left.Consciousness Is All: Now Life Is Completely New
by Peter Francis Dziuban:http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-All-Now-Life-Completely/dp/1577332024/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427984&sr=1-1brynIn some versions of the ND story M's view on memeory continuation would simply be another dream. However on the face of it, it looks like he is stating it as not dream.
In M's teachings it is not clear whether he regards his own statements as part of the dream. However there are some references which indicate that. The following is from memeory and not a direct quote.
"Realization can be fast or slow but really there is no such thing............."
From Love to Love
bryngodszenYes, you are caught in a quicksand of words, and the only way out
is to abandon them altogether.PeteI think that you have the right take on this.
Maharaj was addressing the personal situation
of a particular seeker. To more advanced seekers
he'd say, " Consciousness is just the food essence."
He said a few days before his death, "All my
knowledge has gone into liquidation, but I
remain unconcerned." He wouldn't have said
that if he thought his knowledge would survive
in a subtle body. If such thing as a subtle body
existed and it were able to store memories,
aging would not affect memories the way it does.
To place too much importance in the future of
our memories only shows our attachment to our
identity, and our story line. No explanation,
theory, knowledge or belief can lead us back to
our true nature: The bare sensing of existing
apart from the flux of perceptions. This bare
sensing is a hairbreadth apart from unconsciousness
itself. In this bareness life and death also merge
PeteVijayanThe quote appears to suggest that the "continuity of
memory and the sense of "I am" reflected on it" does
not die, which is at variance with the non-dual
...it appears that Maharaj has bent over backwards in this instance.
VijayanJenny MundayAnd then Jenny was told, regarding 3130, that
"Consciousness is Life in its many manifestations--
subtle, physical, causal and is constant movement or
flow as an electrical wave. The higher the voltage
the greater the understanding..... and
The subtle, the Akashic, the spiritual are permanent
and are actually The Plane of Mass Information. It
is a plane above the physical where-in is contained
all imprints left by all souls throughout all
Eternity. Each soul's essence in each lifetime leaves
a deposit of so-called good & evil, but is actually
just Knowledge. How individual change and move in
their path changes as they develop but it is
Information Mass which controls destiny in a
non-personal - wisdom-way."
And in another "hearing" she heard this:
"The individual entity is an overlay of actions
repeated over eons - and the reality of the human
entity is holigraphic; that appearing as actions/and
human entities are collective thought-pictures only"
David Bohme came to this conclusion during his
studies. When one finds he/she is in the nature of
a constant repeated thought pattern, it's a great
relief - for this one anyway.
"There is no death - life and death are both
illusions - simply manifestation appearing real"
It stops appearing so real when the emotions (or
subtle body swings) are seen through.
Hello! Thanks for the posts. I'm new here, but have been dropping by
periodically. Interesting 'stuff'! :) I do have a few comments to add
to this topic. I will appreciate your responses.
So, timelessness is only experienced 'now'. When we are with the
immediacy of now...no 'pasting' and 'futuring' we are existing in the
eternity of (no duration) now-ness.
The mind and linear time are synonymous. To step 'out' of time is to
realize that all that is, is 'this', here, now...as it is.
The embracing of all that arises, as it arises, is being with 'what
is'. If one 'loses it', doesn't 'get' it, doesn't care, cares too
much, feels stupid, feels smart, has a fit, saves a nation...It is
all relative. It is life unfolding, as it will...like thoughts...life
will come and then go.
A great quote I would like to share:
"Knowing I'm the fiction I'm no longer subjected to the fictitious
continuity between consecutive pages of the book. There is no
continuity, only discontinuity. Continuity doesn't appear unless I
consent to it."
One thing I know for sure, is that the questioner has the common misunderstanding concerning 'mind - stuff' which most uneducated listeners presume is the 'grey-matter of the brain'.
I don't have my texts with me, but if my 'memory' (note: who is this I that has a body, mind & memory?) serves me correctly, mind stuff generally refers to the 'internal instrument' or antahkarana - described in Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon as "the internal organ , the seat of thought and feeling , the mind , the thinking faculty , the heart , the conscience , the soul."
Rajarshi Muni and Guruji's Textbook of Yoga Psychology have a more precise definition which I won't elaborate, but it is composed of chitti (consciousness reflected in the jiva), buddhi, anhankara, and manas. As you know, buddhi among many of its functions is the repository of 'memory', anhankara is the 'I-maker' from whence we have our notion of ego, and manas is the 'logical' processing mind similar to the left hemisphere of the bifurcated mind.
So, the listener is caught up in the Western notion of mind equals brain, and mind stuff equals grey matter, whereas the translation refers to the kernel of individual consciousness.
Furthermore, around p 221 and ff. [in I Am That], Nisargadatta refers to the precise distinctions between 'Consciousness, Mind, and Awareness"
The correct understanding of these 2 notions -- Mind & Consciousness -- will go a long way in understanding one's ultimate state beyond states which is given the word: Awareness.