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#3140 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - Editor: Jerry Katz

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  • Jerry Katz
    #3140 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - Editor: Jerry Katz Nonduality Highlights - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights ... Eight more responses to the
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      #3140 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - Editor: Jerry Katz
      Nonduality Highlights
      -
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NDhighlights 
       
       

       
       
      Eight more responses to the following question:
       
      QUESTION (sender is anonymous):
       
      I am having difficulty with something that Nisargadatta Maharaj is quoted as saying:
       
      "Once you know that the body alone dies and not the continuity of memory and the sense of I am
      reflected in it, you are afraid no longer."
       
      Surely when the body dies there can be no memory as there is no instrument to cognize with. The
      brain holds the memory which is made up of mindstuff, and when that dies surely there can be no
      persistence of memory?
       
      Maybe the quote is a translation mistake?
       
      I know that we are the one beingness and always will be that, but in my experience it is a state of
      no thing,and no knowing.
       
      Are you able to enlighten me on this point?
       
      ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
       
      The question was originally posted in issue 3130: http://nonduality.com/hl3130.htm, with my response.
      The initial batch of reader responses was featured in issue 3132: http://nonduality.com/hl3132.htm
       
      What follows is the second collection of responses.
       
       

       
       
      Peter Dziuban
       
      Hi Jerry,

      Just saw the posting about memory and dying...here's a response which
      some may find interesting.  In this case, the example refers to being
      "knocked unconscious" instead of dying... This is an excerpt from
      Consciousness Is All, chap 5, "Consciousness is not the human mind."

      Best regards, Peter
       
      The following is from Consciousness Is All: Now Life Is Completely New
      by Peter Francis Dziuban:
      http://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-All-Now-Life-Completely/dp/1577332024/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427984&sr=1-1

      "If Consciousness is conscious, is present, even when the body is
      `knocked out,' then why isn't there any memory of the experience?" the
      thought may insist.

      Well, exactly what is memory anyway? Memory is entirely a function
      of thought or a sensing mentality—it has nothing to do with Infinite
      Consciousness, pure Being. They're not the same at all. Memory is
      merely the projected thought of people, objects, places, feelings;
      myriad images—all of which are mental forms.

      The capacity to project these finite mental images is what has
      stopped, not Infinite Consciousness, undimensional I-Presence. Don't
      confuse projected thought forms with formless Consciousness—just as
      you never confuse the moving images on a movie screen with the screen
      itself. Consciousness as It is being doesn't involve thinking; so It
      doesn't involve memory or project thoughts of past or future. It is a
      state of pure Is. Consciousness simply never leaves being present—and
      one cannot have a memory of the present.

      As It is present only, Consciousness Itself never jumps back or ahead
      in time, past or future. Thinking seems to project thoughts of past or
      future, but that's thinking doing that, not Awareness being.

      Awareness cannot have a memory of having been. Why? Its only
      state is that of being present. Because Awareness changelessly is, It
      can't become something that was. It can't look back upon Itself
      because It's not back—It's present!

      This Present-ness that Awareness is, is exactly the same as not being
      able to have a memory of now. It simply is not possible to say you
      have a memory of the now that is now, because it's not past—it's now!

      As further proof that pure Awareness is not in the realm of memory,
      notice that It can't be memorized.

      The would-be finite "thinking mind" based on the senses and time is
      incapable of coming up with any thought, any finite mental form to
      express this undeniable Truth. You "glimpse" or be your own
      Infinity—and the constantly running finite mind stops dead in its tracks.

      Yet You don't stop. You still are very real and present as the
      permanent Now that pure Consciousness is. Life, Being, is present. You
      simply have nothing objective to You. You don't identify with any
      form, but only as the formless Infinity of Your Self—pure unthinkable
      Being.

      This completely un-finite, unlimited "vastness" that pure
      Consciousness is, is why It is in some traditions called "emptiness"
      or "no-mind." It sometimes is called nothingness. That really means
      no-thing-ness, because that's exactly what It is—pure Consciousness
      alone, apart from finite things. Rather than being a nothing,
      Consciousness is specific vital Presence—just without a form.

      Only a state of limited thinking based on the finite senses would
      insist on experiencing some observable form or phenomenon, would
      want to be able to point to it and say, "I had that experience."
      As Pure Consciousness, You never are the same as any experience
      you appear to have. All experience would be what one appears to be
      conscious of on a finite basis. The Infinite Consciousness You are is
      not an experience that is objective to You.

      You've just shown yourself the difference between Consciousness
      Itself, and what appears. You are out of the realm of limited form. In
      Truth, Your Consciousness never was in it. So never look for, or wait
      to have the "big spiritual experience," whatever that might be. Never
      wait for any type of time-event or finite phenomenon, to verify that
      you finally have "arrived." You never will arrive at Infinite
      Consciousness because You never left.
       
      Consciousness Is All: Now Life Is Completely New
      by Peter Francis Dziuban:
       

       
       
      bryn
       
      In some versions of the ND story M's view on memeory continuation would simply be another dream. However on the face of it, it looks like he is stating it as not dream.
       
      In M's teachings it is not clear whether he regards his own statements as part of the dream. However there are some references which indicate that. The following is from memeory and not a direct quote.
       
      "Realization can be fast or slow but really there is no such thing............."
       
      From Love to Love
       
      bryn
       
       

       
       
      godszen
       
        Yes, you are caught in a quicksand of words, and the only way out

        is to abandon them altogether.
       
       

       
       
      Pete
       
      I think that you have the right take on this.
      Maharaj was addressing the personal situation
      of a particular seeker. To more advanced seekers
      he'd say, " Consciousness is just the food essence."
      He said a few days before his death, "All my
      knowledge has gone into liquidation, but I
      remain unconcerned." He wouldn't have said
      that if he thought his knowledge would survive
      in a subtle body. If such thing as a subtle body
      existed and it were able to store memories,
      aging would not affect memories the way it does.

      To place too much importance in the future of
      our memories only shows our attachment to our
      identity, and our story line. No explanation,
      theory, knowledge or belief can lead us back to
      our true nature: The bare sensing of existing
      apart from the flux of perceptions. This bare
      sensing is a hairbreadth apart from unconsciousness
      itself. In this bareness life and death also merge
      into one.

      Pete
       

       
       
      Vijayan
       
      The quote appears to suggest that the "continuity of
      memory and the sense of "I am" reflected on it" does
      not die, which is at variance with the non-dual
      teachings.

      ...it appears that Maharaj has bent over backwards in this instance.

      Vijayan
       

       
      Jenny Munday
       
      And then Jenny was told,  regarding 3130,  that
      "Consciousness is Life in its many manifestations--
      subtle, physical, causal and is constant movement or
      flow as an electrical wave.  The higher the voltage
      the greater the understanding..... and

      The subtle, the Akashic,  the spiritual are permanent
      and are actually The Plane of Mass Information.  It
      is a plane above the physical where-in is contained
      all imprints left by all souls  throughout all
      Eternity.  Each soul's essence in each lifetime leaves
      a deposit of so-called good & evil, but is actually
      just Knowledge.  How individual change and move in
      their path changes as they develop but  it is
      Information Mass  which controls destiny in a
      non-personal - wisdom-way."

      And in another "hearing"  she heard this:

      "The individual entity  is  an overlay of actions
      repeated over eons - and  the reality of the human
      entity is  holigraphic;  that appearing as actions/and
      human entities  are  collective thought-pictures only"

      David Bohme  came to this conclusion during his
      studies. When one finds he/she  is  in the nature of
      a constant repeated thought pattern,  it's a great
      relief -  for this one anyway.

      "There is no death -  life and death are both
      illusions -  simply manifestation appearing real"

      It stops appearing so real when the emotions (or
      subtle body swings)  are seen through.

      Jenny
      http://wwwcenterforawareness.org
       
       

       
       
      Eve
       
      Eve, here:

      Hello!  Thanks for the posts. I'm new here, but have been dropping by
      periodically. Interesting 'stuff'! :) I do have a few comments to add
      to this topic. I will appreciate your responses.

      So, timelessness is only experienced 'now'. When we are with the
      immediacy of now...no 'pasting' and 'futuring' we are existing in the
      eternity of (no duration) now-ness.

      The mind and linear time are synonymous. To step 'out' of time is to
      realize that all that is, is 'this', here, now...as it is.

      The embracing of all that arises, as it arises, is being with 'what
      is'. If one 'loses it', doesn't 'get' it, doesn't care, cares too
      much, feels stupid, feels smart, has a fit, saves a nation...It is
      all relative. It is life unfolding, as it will...like thoughts...life
      will come and then go.

      A great quote I would like to share:

      "Knowing I'm the fiction I'm no longer subjected to the fictitious
      continuity between consecutive pages of the book. There is no
      continuity, only discontinuity. Continuity doesn't appear unless I
      consent to it."
      –Stephen Jourdain

       

       
       
      Robert

      One thing I know for sure, is that the questioner has the common misunderstanding concerning 'mind - stuff' which most uneducated listeners presume is the 'grey-matter of the brain'.

      I don't have my texts with me, but if my 'memory' (note:  who is this I that has a body, mind & memory?)  serves me correctly, mind stuff generally refers to the 'internal instrument' or antahkarana - described in Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon as "the internal organ , the seat of thought and feeling , the mind , the thinking faculty , the heart , the conscience , the soul."

      Rajarshi Muni and Guruji's Textbook of Yoga Psychology have a more precise definition which I won't elaborate, but it is composed of chitti (consciousness reflected in the jiva), buddhi, anhankara, and manas.  As you know, buddhi among many of its functions is the repository of 'memory', anhankara is the 'I-maker' from whence we have our notion of ego, and manas is the 'logical' processing mind similar to the left hemisphere of the bifurcated mind.

      So, the listener is caught up in the Western notion of mind equals brain, and mind stuff equals grey matter, whereas the translation refers to the kernel of individual consciousness.

      Furthermore, around p 221 and ff. [in I Am That], Nisargadatta refers to the precise distinctions between 'Consciousness, Mind, and Awareness"

      The correct understanding of these 2 notions -- Mind & Consciousness -- will go a long way in understanding one's ultimate state beyond states which is given the word: Awareness.

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