Would wish all a Happy St.Patrick's Day, tho it appears now he may be one of
those intolerant missionaries the Pope was apoligizing about last week. Whether
the snakes were literal or symbolized Kundalini Serpent of Goddess worshippers,
today we wish he'd found a kinder, gentler response. So bless you if you are
Irish and bless you if you are not, and bless the snakes and Druids too.
Continuing the thread of responses to the Ramana quote about "removing
samskaras" or remove the untruth, Dan and Jerry weigh in their opinions about
the nondual diet for moi, Glo. Tony and Xan wrap it up to go.
From: "Dan Berkow, PhD"
>>Some things? You mean like ... everything?
>>Now, that's a hell of a diet!!
G:>Yeah, it was a silly example..
D: I thought it was a good example - I just took it
a bit further :-)
G: diet happens to be on my "to do list." I admit
>I'd love to find a "weasel clause".. who wouldn't?
D: The weasel clause is:
"I love you exactly as you are" :-)
G:And not to say that is what
jody is doing and I don't know exactly how jody really means "only
disidentify"...but still I would find it difficult to know I had even
begun to disidentify with my innate tendencies without some sort of "Reality"
D: Debates over the difference between "disidentify" and "release tendencies"
isn't worth the effort for me. Disidentification with no change in
tendencies doesn't seem like full disidentification, as tendencies
to perceive lack, need, to try to protect self, etc. all *are*
Sometimes on this list we seem to get caught up in definitions and
explanations, and "tend" to go back and forth. Meanwhile, there is "That"
which depends not in the least on our definitions and explanations. The main
thing for me is that we "don't lose sight of That" by getting "too
identified" with our positions or "too involved" in our tendencies to want
to be right, be seen as knowing something, etc. ;-)
G: Self deception itself being one of those very innate tendencies.
The only way to truly be beyond self-deception is when there is
no "framing of reality" by words, ideas, or sense-based images.
Words, ideas, and senses can be used as needed, they're just not
assumed to be the basis of reality. Then, one won't be deceived
by one's own or others' words, ideas, or images. :-)
G: It's a tricky
business this giving up. .. and I'm in no place to be amending Ramana myself.
Sometimes tho, the Self does seem to shine through no matter what..and for
that I am grateful.
D: Yes! That is my experience. When "IT" shines through, it is shining
through itself to itself. It "reveals" to itself its own nature -
which is "all there is" -- this is awesome -- nothing intereferes,
it is indeed "no matter what". Funny that there was the impression
that there could be something blocking it. But that impression
has somewhat of a "life of its own," that will "run its own course"
as it cycles itself like a washing machine that will eventually
"run out of energy" - that is, if there is awareness such that
the cycle doesn't continually reinforce itself. Call the cycle
"identification" or "tendencies" - the main thing is that awareness
interrupts the self-perpetuation of the cylce - the explanation
and language used are secondary. ;-)
G: What exactly are all these samskaras?? My understanding of untruth undergoes
D: Reactive tendencies. Tending to construct an illusion of
separated awareness. I'm no expert on this concept, as it's
from another cultural context, and I'm certainly open to hearing
about it from someone whose studies and practice have been
focused on it. :-)
For me, when people use words from other cultures and schemes of reality,
I stay open, learn about them, and see how and where they apply in
"my" scheme of reality. However, I am not under any illusion that any
scheme of reality is a substitute for Reality. The scheme of reality
is mainly a means for the "relative mind" to formulate discussions,
plans, explanations, practices, observations, etc. The value of
all of this is ultimately for the "relative mind" to prepare
itself for "giving itself away".
Our strategies for ending mind-body anchoring are far secondary to the
"Shining Through" you discussed above. The "Shining Through",
called by different names (Grace, Original Awareness, Clear Light)
isn't the result of a body-mind strategy, not dependent on
thought and language. My observation is that "Shining Through" doesn't
depend on how I understand reactive tendencies, karma, identification,
atman, Brahman, anatma, no-thingness,
trisna, love, Self, God, infinity - and all the
wonderful concepts we use as we share our "journey into Now"...
All this wonderful sharing, yet the "Beyond" is here fully Now,
and *is* Now, and none of our words add or subtract :-)
And that takes it back to the original quote from Ramana
that started this little thread. He said to throw out the
innate tendencies, all the things tugging a person in every
direction. I think he meant to do that 24/7. (In fact, I
believe Ramana was the first person to use the term '24/7'.
I've since modified to .25/3, but that's another story.)
Many fall into Jan B.'s camp of having had a glimpse, a
look, perhaps that of having a barely obstructed vista, and
then finding an authoritative word in the voice. With that,
a person has to remember that they are not the obstructions
or the tendencies, which means its necessary to inquire, Who
Who I am isn't my tendencies. Knowing who I am does see the
tendencies fall away. But suddenly everything seems like a
tendency now: the tendency to inquire, the tendency to watch
tendencies appear and move, the tendency to throw tendencies
away and to watch them re-appear, the tendency to enjoy
having few tendencies. The more I think about it all, the
more it agglomerates into one dark obstruction called
I know I'm not that.
And then suddenly, seeing it that way, it's gone. And a
clear silvery vista opens up for a moment and there's no
room for fatty food or addiction, or tendency at all, in
that vista. And, via that clearing, I'm guided toward what's
right, and sometimes I follow that guidance.
It all reminds me of a favorite cartoon that I kept until it fell into shreds.
This guy was saying, "I am going to give up one bad habit a day until they are
all gone." And this old crone, who come to think of it was a lot like our Old
Hag, says, " I am sorry I will not live to see the victory celebration."
So maybe the point of all our spiritual practices that struggle with innate
tendencies is to finally see the hopelessness of ever winning. I'm pretty sure
that skipping over that struggle and taking someone else's word for it does not
have nearly the same effect. In the way that a Zen master, or any good teacher,
knows it is far better to let the student discover his own answer rather than be
handed one, a second hand realization is no realization. I am not talking about
this stuff to debate anyone's definitions, Dan, tho I like to hear other's
thoughts on the quote. I am saying that even knowing it's pretty much impossible
to remove all these innate tendencies, (that's one hell of a lot of digging!) I
still want to "make the effort" because freedom beckons. I don't just throw in
the towel and let myself and everyone around me suffer because of them, all the
while saying that ultimately none of this matters. This seems to be what
Buddhism is about after all, ending the suffering here and now. The "Reality"
check is that this is not a hypothetical discussion or debate, it is real life.
I happen to have been blessed with enough experiences of "on earth, as it is in
heaven" or "nirvana is samsara"...to know its mostly a matter of my own vision
being clouded. I have seen the Light shine and felt the Love in enough strange
and unexpected places to know this. It is always here.
Dan, I got this far and started to write something about how to remember more
often...when suddenly it came to me. :)
So I may as well go pick some daffodills before the freeze tonight kills them.
That How is a killer too, isn't it? Right up there with Why?.. Ha!
Jodyr wrote>The point I'm trying to make is that
samskaras will continue to exist after Moksha has occurred.
It isn't the samskaras themselves that get in the way, it is the
identification with the samskaras that occlude.
I am not sure that we identify with samskaras as they
are the fuel of the moving mind. However Patanjali
says burnt to a seed, unable to sprout. Traces I
suppose, non energised and not fed any more. Useless
and not attached? There is no ego to energise their
potentiality. They are left in akasha.
Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.
~ As Ramana said,
like a burnt rope,
it looks the same
but you can't tie anything with it.
From: James Bean spiritualawakeningatonelist@...
This week on Spiritual Awakening via the Wisdom Radio Network: "Quantum
Physics Meets Mysticism -- Finding the Missing State of Being:
This program makes the case for the need to explore inner space via a
contemplative meditation practice, "the research tool of spiritual
scientists." I make use of a new book by Brian Hines called "God's Whisper,
Creation's Thunder -- Echoes of Ultimate Reality In The New Physics,"
In this study, Hines demonstrates the parallels between the discoveries of
the new physics and the revelations of the great mystics, whom he describes
as "spiritual scientists." One of the mystics he heavily quotes is
Jalaluddin Rumi, the great 12th century Sufi poet, who by the way has become
America's most widely read poet in recent years.
FROM THE PROGRAM INTRODUCTION:
"After years of being concerned that too few voices, too few points
of view were getting heard when it comes to spiritual paths, that the wisdom
of the great Saints and Mystics was nowhere to be found, that the radio
airwaves were not reflecting the diversity that really exists -- I started
producing my own programs exploring the world of spirituality, comparative
religion, mysticism, books, and music. Spiritual Awakening brings to the
airwaves: the gentle voices of Saints, the wisdom of Masters & Mystics,
world scriptures, and the great spiritual classics of the east, and the
BROADCAST SCHEDULE AND REAL AUDIO URL'S:
Wisdom Radio: http://www.wisdomradio.com
click onto "live;"
Sundays at 9 a.m., Eastern Time, repeated 2 a.m., E.T./11 p.m., P.T.;
(For archived editions of Spiritual Awakening -- click onto "shows on
Radio For Peace International: http://www.rfpi.org/webcast.html
click onto "live streaming MP3," & http://www.boinklabs.com/ifpi.html
Sundays at NOON, Eastern, repeated eight and sixteen hours later:
8 p.m., Eastern Time, Sunday evenings, and 4 a.m., E.T. Mondays;
RFPI also broadcasts on worldwide shortwave on 15.050, 6975, & 25.930.
Every Thursday afternoon at 12: 30;
Every Friday morning at 9, E.T.;
From: "Melody" more from Osho's "I AM THAT"
"The enlightened person has reached the highest
peak of consciousness; his abode is on Everest.
Now it is his freedom to speak according to the
peak, the sunlit peak where he is, or to consider
the people who are still in the dark valley, who
know nothing about the light, for whom the peak
of the Everest is only a dream, only a 'perhaps'. "
"I speak in terms where *you* are, I consider you,
because if I am speaking to you, you have to be
taken in consideration. I have to lead you towards
the highest peak, but the journey will begin in the
dark valley, in your unconsciousness. If I talk about
*my* experience, absolutely inconsiderate of you,
I am right, but I am not useful to you."
"For thousands of years you have been told that the
ego does not exist. Has it helped you in any way?
There have been people who have told, in this
country particularly, that the whole world is illusory,
maya, it does not exist, but has it helped India in
any way? The true test is there: whether it has
helped, whether it has made people more authentic,
more real. It has *not* helped at all. It has made
people more deeply cunning, split, schizophrenic;
it has made them hypocrites."
"All the religions have done this, because they don't
consider you. And you are far more important
than the ultimate truth, because the ultimate truth
has nothing to do with you right now. You are
living in a dreamworld; some device is needed which
can help you come out of it. The moment you are
out of it, you will know it was a dream - but a
person who is dreaming, to tell him it is all a dream
"........no enlightened person can ever be wrong, but
only few enlightened persons have been of help. The
majority of enlightened people have been of no help
at all, for the simple reason they have never considered
And a bit of Osho's humor
"The army recruit from the country was being given his
physical examination. 'Well, that's everything but the
urine test', said the doctor. 'I want a specimen of yours
in one of those little bottles on that shelf down at the
other end of the room.'
'What did you say, Doc?' asked the young man.
'Just urinate in one of those little bottles down there,'
repeated the doctor.
The recruit still looked doubtful. 'Do you mean all
the way from here?' he asked.
"Sister Mary was taking tea to Mother Superior.
When she reached Mother Superior's room she
bumped the tray and spilt the tea.
'Oh, shit!' Sister Mary said. 'I spilt the tea..........
oh, damn, I said shit............oh Christ, I said damn
...............oh fuck, I said Christ!' "
From: "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)"
El, an incredibly brilliant person and artist who has shared much on her
Kundalini experiences wrote the following on the K-List in response to the
"usual spiritual posts". It reflects such a completely spontaneous burst of
humorous creativity that I felt it deserved a wider audience. :-).
The Meister speaks:
"For every dolt there is a corresponding antidote. Dolt and antidote collide
to form a substance similar to silly putty, thus having slight socially
Cremating the Meister
One of the half-baked ideas is that if what's-it is created from whatever,
then there is likewise created a generous portion of who-the-hell-cares.
If I take a croissant and crumble it, forming a mess of crumbs on the table,
those crumbs attract vermin, much like maggots which have opposite ends also
known as mouths and butts.
In other words, you cannot make a mess anywhere without attracting something
that actually thinks it's fit to eat.
Holes can be reversed when entropy is squared by armadillos times the speed
Now, let us take this a step further.
Bugs and pesticides.
Is a concept that most will be familiar with... but have you ever looked at
an ant with the perspective that it just might be your reincarnated
"a vaguely specified load of bull... some pretence of actual communication."
as in the concept or phrase "get a life" i.e. "your mind is on vacation and
your mouth is working overtime"
Now manure is also defined as that which occupies bandwidth and has a certain
So where, within this concept, lies the antidote -- that which pours like
molasses and kills time... that which is too stupid to think about and is of
no concern to anyone
To put this into further convoluted double-talk, a quirk, a clink, a slurp, a
skunk are words I "created" by lifting them from the dictionary. What we do
is, because of a perception of utmost crud, seek to hit our delete buttons in
The mindless and the meaningless.
Where the mindless and the meaningless are perceived as one of the signs of
the apocalypse, it follows that if dolts are spewing nonsense, then those
with the sense of an onion will ignore them.
In other words, your recipe for linguine will turn into slime mold (unless
baked at the royal unification altitude), causing a dispersal of your dinner
All too often, for most people, most of the time -- or most often, for all
people, for much of the time -- or often too many people mostly for all time
-- whatever could have been, should have been, and vice versa, according to
the whims of inverse conundrum and Murphy's law, part 12.
Recreational spittoon polishing done without due process and failure to pay
the parallel universe tariff collectors leads to heavy fines directly
proportional to the strength with which you hold onto your hat.
What matters most to your mental foot is that which will also provide the
greatest gravitational redundancy within the infrastructure of your spiritual
It follows from this that hidee-hidee-hi and hodee-hodee-ho, the greater one
conspicuously implied the opposite to the contrary, the more the aorta
reverberates like a renegade sonata.
The seeking of hokem with the left ventricle will, therefore, induce
aneurysms in all who have tried to make sense of this inanity.
The Meister you fear most is probably running for public office somewhere,
and you fear him/her only slightly less strongly than you fear reading
further posts of this nature, hopefully not allowing yourself, the blather
and idiocy to become one.
(Any resemblance of this post to any other post or list member, living or
dead or in some kind of vegetative brain-dead coma, is sheer coincidence.)