Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

HIGHLIGHTS of Fri/March 10

Expand Messages
  • Gloria Lee
    Jerry provides the solution to all problems and of course someone finds a problem with his answer.:) How is nonduality involved in dealing with ... Thanks for
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 11, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Jerry provides the solution to all problems and of course someone finds a
      problem with his answer.:)

      How is nonduality involved in dealing with
      > > personal problems. For me, it means seeing what can't be
      > > influenced or changed. It also means knowing that that which
      > > cannot be influenced or changed -- the stainless space of
      > > Gene Poole -- is infinite potential, which means you can
      > > always start over from a position of strength. There are no
      > > problems if one abides in the unchanging. There's only humor
      > > and a looking forward to death. I know I'm expressing an
      > > ideal, but it can be approached, if one meditates and
      > > focuses on who they are.

      > There may be no problems but there is no life either.
      > How about abiding in the space between the unchanging
      > and the ever-changing?
      > Marcia

      Thanks for coming back. You seem different, Marcia, very,
      how do you say? ... Salon .... very, how do you say? ...
      nonduality chic. In other words, great posts from an
      individual being.

      Yes, I'm agreeing with you in my own way. That is the gift,
      to be able to abide the craziness, the swing from unchanging
      to changing. At some point the swing or pendulum stops for
      an instant, stands perfectly straight and free.


      Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote:

      > And Marcia, you do sound different.
      > Did you get a hair cut?


      Now this is what I was looking for yesterday when you
      went all soft on me. :-)

      (Editor notes:Of course, this is what all women are looking for, a guy who
      notices her new "look" AND takes out the garbage! See below, as Jerry continues
      to solve everyone's problems with nothing more than those little twisties and
      gives a whole new meaning to airbags.)

      > >Jerry: [snip]
      > >It's a terrible thing to believe what people tell you. Maybe
      > >that's what lies at the heart of everyone's problems.
      > D: What a useful observation, Jerry!
      > How much unnecessary tension, conflict, and distress
      > is the result of believing what others tell me,
      > *and* what I tell myself is "believable"?
      > These "minds" are programmable - we're all entranced
      > and entrenched in programming - yet
      > perhaps also able to relinquish our programming.
      > What a useful practice - simply to discard any
      > unnecessary reference to beliefs about
      > anything - including the belief that I need
      > to discard beliefs!
      > Love,
      > Dan

      Hi Dan,

      Thank you. And yet it seems tools are needed to accomplish
      the discarding. Like garbage bags, garbage pails, those
      plastic ties kept in the little drawer with old batteries,
      trucks, men, landfills. One can imagine the electronic
      equivlant. In time the amount of garbage decreases, and the
      day it stops, maybe that's when a person is identified as
      self-realized or enlightened. Who knows? Maybe the
      enlightened one is throwing out garbage bags filled with
      air, just to hang around the pile. Now we know what O.H. is
      doing there.


      DAN: Could be, could be, Jerry.
      There are all kinds of tools in this world. Sometimes, a tool may not
      look like a tool.

      For example, bacteria may be a very useful tool. Who do you think breaks
      down all that garbage in the garbage pile? Bacteria help return
      everything to its original state - Nature's little helpers.
      Most people don't like bacteria much,
      but if it weren't for bacteria, we
      wouldn't be here talking.

      So, truly, bacteria are the angels
      of this planet.

      We all have something to learn
      from bacteria about the breaking down
      of garbage. We need to find our
      "inner bacteria" to break down
      our "inner garbage piles"
      to "original substance".

      ~~Hey, you know my little friends!! They come for tea often. They grieve
      for all of us who drag around our mind-made garbage and do not throw it
      on pile! If you look very closely, you can see the drops of compassion
      rolling down their little spines. That is why they are called,

      (i know, i know, very bad. smack those wrinkled fingers!)

      i sure appreciate ramblings from you two Wise Guys (meant in most
      positive manner imaginable.) Maybe you stop by pile sometime, share pot
      of Airbag Tea and Angel Scones - very fine.

      love you, dears,

      Re: Marcia/Self and Other and Sharing

      > But now that you ask I have to admit I have questions around
      > the topic. Experiences I am unclear on. So bear with me as
      > I poke around from various positions.

      Gene: OK

      > Well, first I was meeting for awhile with someone who supposedly
      > could help me come to understand some things. And he did actually.
      > The first time I met with him I was talking allot but I felt this tug
      > coming from somewhere else. Then for a moment or two we
      > were talking on two levels at once. I felt my lips move and heard
      > myself speak and go on about whatever it was I was talking about
      > and at the same time I was totally "caught" in his gaze almost like
      > a rabbit in headlights. We even smiled at each other from this
      > position while I kept talking. I felt like I was being "fed".

      Gene: Yes. I am quite familiar with this 'phenomenon'; I can induce
      it myself, in others.

      It does happen that we are able to 'entertain' more than one
      'identity' at the same time. This is a virtually untapped aspect of
      human nature, but one which the most ancient of Shamanistic
      practices, that of Nepalese 'Bon-Po' is quite familiar with, and upon
      which the various derivations of Bon-Po expound. I refer to both
      Hawaiian Huna, and the 'Teachings of Don Juan', as expounded by
      Carlos Castenada ("The Way Of Seeing") IE, 'Nagualism'.

      To experience this simultaneity of awareness from two subjective
      points is entirely possible; it can be inflicted by one upon another
      (and this is common between parent and infant child), it can be
      taught, it can be learned. The 'easiest' way, though, is to be in the
      presence of one who is powerful in that talent, one who has learned
      that it is 'just another value-neutral aspect of Being'.

      Have you ever gazed at the movements of eel-grass in a tidewater pool?

      > We continued to meet for about six months and it became
      > clearer that I was being "fed" something.

      Gene: Yes. Your 'egoic operating system' was being 'updated'. Your
      friend desired to delete several historically important infoviruses
      from your system as well. Your friend wished for you to join him in
      his dimension of sharing; he was feeding you, so that you would be
      able to do that and to have that; he was also teaching you how to
      'feed' others, by allowing you to perceive that he was doing that
      very thing as he was doing it. Your friend desired to enroll you in a
      certain growing tribe of free sharers. All of these free sharers
      experience simultaneous point of view of all sharers, all the time;
      not only that, they also experience the actuality of what author
      Phillip K Dick named as 'PLASMATE', in his ground-breaking book_
      VALIS_ (hint, hint).

      > I experienced several
      > things which he said was a much finer or higher energy than I was
      > ordinarily in. For instance once while we were saying good-bye
      > I was looking at him from a distance of about three or four feet
      > and for a moment or two I was inside his eyes looking at me and
      > inside my eyes looking at him. It was as if we were looking from
      > the same place at the same thing only the same thing we were
      > looking at was ourselves.

      Gene: Yes... this is a fine awareness to have, to cultivate, and to
      share. It is harmless. But it can be jarring... it can lead to rather
      traditional paranoia, which itself is nothing more than the fierce
      clinging to individual identity. Consider: If this experience was
      more or less commonly had, individual identity would be 'optional'.
      People could have immense fun and pleasure, 'playing in each-other'.
      Sometimes, young children do this. You may remember doing it, as a
      young child.

      > But something about the relationship
      > did not feel right. He also made noise about "mixing influences"
      > and I would have to choose between the group of people I meet
      > with regularly and him. I agree that mixing influences can dilute
      > things and perhaps I made a mistake in choosing not to choose
      > him (perhaps fear, don't know) but something wasn't right. Too
      > much of a power thing.

      Gene: Yes, that was an error on his part. There is nothing wrong with
      'mixing influences'; in fact, I advocate it 'as a way of life',
      myself. But, I think that what he was struggling to share, was the
      danger of "mixing LEVELS". Each level is discrete unto itself; the
      commonality of 'truths and realities' that are universal for all
      levels, should not be used as an excuse for sloppy perception or
      thinking. This is especially dangerous when there are goals or
      attachment to goals involved.

      We can find similarity (genetic and behaviorally) between a fruitfly
      and a man, but we are foolish to treat one as the other.

      Each level is/has 'classes of objects', and each object and each
      class (category) is found in extension on all other levels, but this
      does not make them equivalent. The holographical/fractal patterns of
      such extension forms the basic grid of possibility, and is as far as
      I know, unalterable. The function of the human brain/mind is to allow
      or provoke ('to key') complete collapse of particular
      object-extensions; this is referred to (Fred Allen Wolfe, Q Theorist)
      as 'collapsing quantum waveforms'. To have this 'inverse telescoping'
      effect is to have 'understanding'; further, if and when this occurs
      for any person, it seems that the entire universe now shares this
      knowledge of what was just now understood. In this way, we can see
      that 'knowledge' exists in potentiality. Your friend wished to share
      with you the key to conscious use of this innate human function.

      > Second, there are several people who I know that contact me
      > to ostensibly just hang out but we always end up talking about
      > the more inner side of things. They are hungry and without
      > much volition on my part I end up feeding them. I talk to them
      > about my inner work and they appear to be satisfied. Sometimes
      > I feel drained afterwards.

      Gene: What comes through here for me is that you are dealing with
      'concrete', not vampires. Your job, when confronted with concrete, is
      to allow/provoke it to liquify, flow, and eventually become the
      volatile fuel for your (and 'their') 'work'.

      > Third, I work with a group of people. We do ordinary things like
      > eat allot of meals together and tell jokes and blah, blah, blah.
      > Mostly our eyes are veiled but sometimes the veils come down
      > and there is a real energy exchange just for a moment or two.
      > Usually cause of a minor shock of some sort or another.
      > And we hold hands in a circle before each meal and there
      > is an energy circle which I can feel passing around us. This
      > is mutual feeding. And we meditate together and on occasion
      > when I am blocked coughing or whatever I can feel a hand
      > come out and lift me up. Not a real hand of course but this
      > is a feeding of sorts.
      > So what do you think?

      Gene: I appreciate your description. I point out that there is a
      difference between affirming tribal affiliation, and feeding.

      To give is to feed another, if the other can receive. To take is to
      feed oneself; approval of other is optional. To share is to openly
      give and receive, simultaneously. Our nature is to be in constant
      sharing; this is what is missing from 'the family way', and this is
      why we all long for community.

      To take the affirmation of another, be it 'good' or 'bad', is to move
      in the direction of the sharing of multiple identity, as in my
      discussion above. Isolation is the unfortunate byproduct of 'psychic
      rape', which is virtually the blasting of flame down the 'sharing
      channel' of Shushumna-Nadi; this shocking and traumatic event sets
      the stage for the human world 'as we have known it'. The fact that
      this channel is so tightly closed that 'Kundalini' is a rare
      occurrence is the real tragedy of our human community; true
      communionication/sharing can be difficult to initiate as long as the
      virtual invasion of one person by another is allowed to continue.

      This is why it is important to realize the reality and importance of
      _boundaries_; this is what 'ego' is designed to do, but we have a
      world of ego-disabled persons, most of whom are participating in the
      tacit conspiracy to further the disabling of ego in very young
      (preverbal) children. It is the powerful contraction of Being,
      induced by parent to child, which is the stumbling-block to universal
      sharing; and it is our task to make this essential science of Being
      known to all, in whatever terms they can understand.

      Imagine a planet of relaxed and aware people; nothing is wrong.

      Imagine a planet of relaxed and aware people; nothing is wrong.

      Imagine a planet of relaxed and aware people; nothing is wrong.

      I will be happy to expand on any of these ideas/concepts; please
      state specific detailed questions.

      ==Gene Poole==

      [Universal Sharing: Consider the alternative]

      From: xanma

      " Learn to witness and to wait. Becomes as one, you and your camera, clear
      as glass and selfless. The more still, the more open and clear you are -- the
      more will come. Believe me: more will come that you could dream or dare."

      quotation from a photograph book by Nell Dorr


      All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,
      perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back
      into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean,
      all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does
      not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is.
      Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee
      relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into
      It Self. Welcome all to HarshaSatsangha.
      Tony's request for a dictionary evoked many answers. Please bear with some
      repetition of his questions, as sometimes the replies only refer to certain
      parts of his question, they make more sense that way.

      >From: Tony O'Clery >>
      >Namaste All,
      >Could somebody please sort out the gobbledegook, and
      >please tell me what the words, 'realisation',
      >'enlightened', mean, to these lists?

      >My understanding, up until now was that they meant the
      >same thing as Moksha/Liberation/No Mind/Merging with
      >the Self etc. It is confusing to my mind, yes I still
      >have one.
      >Here is where I am at, perhaps someone can tell me
      >which slot I am.ha ah a aha. That comes from ekagratha
      >or practising one-pointedness.
      >I have a mind, somewhat dysfunctional, sometimes
      >happy, sometimes depressed, like many who quietly
      >living their lives. Not in quiet desperation as
      >someone said, Lincoln?

      >I have some spiritual and K experiences, also some
      >kind of 'samadhis'. Also some kind of non dual,
      >oneness type happenings. I know I am part of a whole
      >and that really I am an illusion.
      > I see that all is the universal everywhere, my dog,
      >the tree everybody. So I am enlightened to that
      >extent, and I realise my situation or illusion.
      >I find the teachings of Ramanashram to be true for me.
      >Also other Jnanis like Jesus, Sankara, Maharaj etc.
      >All Adwaitic. However I have a Bhakti dimension as
      >However I still have a mind and I still see the world,
      >that means to me that I haven't finished the journey.
      >So what do these words mean? Realisation,
      >Enlightened.I know what Moksha, Maya and illusion
      >Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

      From: Greg Goode


      Like Harsha (I think) said, you are unique and authentic. And I love you,
      feel your power and passion in all this. You are going to get a lot of
      answers on this!!

      It was Thoreau, in Walden I think, who said "The mass of men lead lives of
      quiet desperation."

      Here is my concept of enlightenment/nirvana, etc.

      Samsara is seeing a difference between nirvana and samsara.
      Nirvana is not seeing a difference between nirvana and samsara.

      There is really no individualized entity to be the possessor of
      enlightenment or unenlightenment. Enlightenment or its lack cannot reside
      in any of the 5 koshas, because the koshas are not more than appearances in
      consciousness. There is no real "X" and "Y," where we can say "X" is
      enlightened and "Y" is not enlightened. If one truly believes that some
      real "X" are enlightened and others are not, then there's a sticky belief
      in some kind of jiva or lifestream that is the holder of enlightenment.
      And what exactly would that holder be? Instead, all is light. This of
      course is consistent with your traditional definition of sahaja samadhi, no
      mind, no samskaras, etc.

      In a conventional-teaching sense, however, enlightenment is often used as
      an encouraging and motivational term. It is an inspirational way to
      recognize great world-teachers, and there are many of us who would like to
      emulate them. (Like Jerry, I don't have the hair for it!!) But oddly
      enough, these great teachers never say that people must be vastly
      influential and famous like they themselves are. No, often they rather
      say, just BE. And another purpose of the term "enlightenment" is like the
      ultimate goal-of-goals for the sadhaka, and interpreted each to her own.
      This keeps one on steadily the path. It functions like this until it falls
      away. I think Osho said, "Enlightenment is a concept for the
      unelightened," a phrase which paradoxically mixes both the conventional and
      esoteric levels. And then, as you know from scripture and literature,
      there is often that irreversible non-moment outside of time when the whole
      thing is intuited, and laughter results. I don't have the citation, but I
      heard it attributed to Buddha this saying. Another saying that mixes both
      the conventional and esoteric levels:

      "When I was enlightened, I saw that the whole
      world had always been enlightened.

      With love,


      Your idea of "no mind" is assumptive and not accurate.
      There is no "merging" with the Self as we are already
      *are* the Self.

      There are states where mind is inactive, but these are
      not and cannot be permanent. We can as beings "see"
      between our thoughts, and this would be "where" one
      could find "no mind" perhaps.

      Moksha is the moment where Purusha withdraws identification
      from Prakriti, resting in It's own nature forevermore.
      This event can and does often occur in the context of
      a living, breathing body/mind, with all the functions
      of the body/mind, including desire, intact.

      (snip repeat of questions)
      > However I still have a mind and I still see the world,
      > that means to me that I haven't finished the journey.

      You will continue to have a mind until your body/mind
      expires. You are welcome to hold on to the incorrect
      assumption that mind must cease before realization
      begins, but you do so at the peril of your own moksha.

      I contend that while you may have a limited understanding
      of these terms, your assumptions about them hinder a more
      proper understanding.

      Realization = The event whereby the Self recognizes the
      Self in the context of a body/mind, permanently erasing
      the essential delusion that we are only individual beings
      as defined by our life experiences.

      Enlightened = The continuation of the realization experience
      over time in the life of a jivanmukti, whereby the mind has
      been modified from within the context of realization, thereby
      resulting in the accumulation of ever greater levels of clarity.

      Moksha = see realization.

      Maya = The world or manifest universe. Maya is the creation
      of Shakti. Shakti is the manifesting principle inherent in
      Nirguna Brahman. Ramakrishna used to say "Brahman and Shakti
      are like fire and its power to burn." Maya can be said to
      be the theatre of Shakti's lila, or play. Shakti's lila is
      the manifesting principle behind each, every and all
      phenomena in the manifest universe, including each, every, and
      all our own thoughts, feelings, sensations, and desires.

      Illusion = First, the essential attachment to the idea that
      we are only our individual persons as defined by our memory,
      conditioning and life experiences. Second, the activity of
      our perceptual systems that renders the universe as a set
      of objects in motion distinct from ourselves as Self.


      We all have a mind and we will always have a mind. It is our thinker
      and often our stinker! Suffering comes about in large part due to
      our attachment to our thinker. Suffering also arises when we try to
      become mindless or to somehow destroy our mind because we think that
      we must in order to become enlightened/realized/awakened. Accept your
      mind as a part of the eternal all. Don't fight with it. Don't fear it.
      Use it to solve problems. That is its function. Niether embrace the
      mind nor reject the mind.

      But you know what? I'll never convince you or anyone of that. What I
      would like to suggest is a nice little book by Pema Chodrun. She is
      the director of the buddhist monastary in Nova Scotia. The book is
      'The Wisdon of No Escape and The path of Loving Kindness'. On pp 74
      she talks about not prefering samsara or nirvana.

      > I have a mind, somewhat dysfunctional, sometimes
      > happy, sometimes depressed, like many who quietly
      > living their lives. Not in quiet desperation as
      > someone said, Lincoln?

      Yes after awakening/enlightenment/realization you will still have a
      mind. It will be as important to you as your big toes. You never
      think about them, but they keep you from falling on your face! You
      only become aware of toeness when you stub your toe. The mind will be
      like your toes. It will be in its proper place, but the occasional
      migrane may develop! ;-)

      > I have some spiritual and K experiences, also some
      > kind of 'samadhis'. Also some kind of non dual,
      > oneness type happenings. I know I am part of a whole
      > and that really I am an illusion.
      > I see that all is the universal everywhere, my dog,
      > the tree everybody. So I am enlightened to that
      > extent, and I realise my situation or illusion.

      This is to me a major sign of an awakened person! So, stop your
      @^&*%$# whining and get on with life! ;-) Love you!

      > I find the teachings of Ramanashram to be true for me.
      > Also other Jnanis like Jesus, Sankara, Maharaj etc.
      > All Adwaitic. However I have a Bhakti dimension as
      > well.

      And the heavens parted and the great voice said, "ALL DIMENSIONS ARE
      And I squeeked out, 'holy shit'.
      And the great voice said, "THAT TOO!"

      > However I still have a mind and I still see the world,
      > that means to me that I haven't finished the journey.

      Who has? Each spark of us will glow until we expire. That is our
      journey. Do you suppose that you get to know everything all at once!
      DO YOU WANT TO EXPLODE! Just kidding. Take it easy. The universe
      existed long before you manifested as Tony O'Clery and will continue
      to exist long after you lay Tony's bones to rest. :-)

      > So what do these words mean? Realisation,
      > Enlightened.I know what Moksha, Maya and illusion
      > mean.

      You are the real in realization. You are the light in enlightened.

      The illusion that you know what illusion is - is the joke you keep
      playing on yourself.

      'I am you and you are me and we are one together! Come together right
      now over me!' The Beatles

      The short answer to the above request is: You are IT!


      Peace - and Love Abiding - Michael

      MS Bookshelf gives for enlightenment:
      Buddhism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends
      desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.
      And for self-realization (small s):
      Complete development or fulfillment of one's own potential.

      With a capital S, Self-realization is "recognizing one's real
      nature": recognizing "It" as the source of joy, all issues
      like attachment, detachment etc. are moot although onlookers
      will perceive asceticism. This sudden recognition is the boon
      Nachiketas wanted and Yama was reluctant to bestow
      (Kathopanishad). Ramana could be called a spontaneous visitor
      to Yama and received the same boon.

      So these terms can have a different meaning.

      ¤My understanding, up until now was that they meant the
      ¤same thing as Moksha/Liberation/No Mind/Merging with
      ¤the Self etc. It is confusing to my mind, yes I still
      ¤have one.

      Moksha is the "end" and "goal" regarding nonduality as the
      pronoun "I" no longer is felt (and consequently, won't appear
      in one's thinking). It is identical with nirvana (substratum
      remaining). The substratum here is equivalent with "causal
      body" or the anandamaya kosha. In Sufism, non-I is symbolized
      by "lover is annihilated in the Beloved" and in Christianity
      it is called "resurrection from the dead". The term "merging"
      is a misnomer, there is nothing to merge with, rather,
      something has to be removed (the sense of "I", "doer"). The
      issue with "mind" had better be forgotten as it invites a lot
      of speculation: thinking remains possible and the sensory mind
      remains intact (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling
      remain possible for a jivanmukta). In Rosicrucianism, the
      "resurrection" is said to be the end of transmutation (of base
      metals into gold) and transfiguration will start and Kundalini
      will "stay" too, until transfiguration is completed (identical
      to nirvana without substratum).

      So "mind" isn't the issue per se: the issue is "I, me and

      ¤Here is where I am at, perhaps someone can tell me
      ¤which slot I am.ha ah a aha. That comes from ekagratha
      ¤or practising one-pointedness.
      With spontaneous K. awakening, it is difficult to say. The
      first "common denominator" (experience all will have) that is
      mentioned in Rosicrucianism (there have to be such descriptors
      in other paths too) is piercing the knot of the heart and it
      is called "the holy grail". The piercing of knots is a useful
      descriptor of "where" and unless veiled, can be recognized at
      one glance. But as a rule, the chakra where sensations are
      felt strongest is the one "being acted upon"; only when the
      next one (in ascending order) contains a knot, that can be the
      chakra "being acted upon".

      Hi Tony,

      Good list question. A person who is realized may know the I
      AM continuously. A person who is enlightened may have
      transcended I AM. At least that might be one way of looking
      at it.


      Realisation = seeing
      Enlightenment = being

      Realisation is coming to an intuitive understanding of the fundamental fact of
      human existence, which is that everything, forms, feelings, perceptions,
      thoughts are
      no more or less than consciousness itself and that consciousness itself is
      Living according to that understanding is enlightenment. It's living simply in
      fullness of the moment without being driven and without resisting, which
      everyday life into pure wonder and mystery.


      Tony I hope everyone responds to this. If not, re-post it during the
      week. I'm sure everyone will have many answers. For me the most
      important word to decipher is "I". It's like scooping up a handful of
      ocean. Nothing to it but here it is. Very puzzling. Maybe the answer is
      to just relax the headache. Or dive deep until you run out of air and
      are forced to swallow it. :-)

      From: "Melody"

      Hi everyone...

      Were you all aware that Onelist has provided each
      list with their own chatroom? I have just been
      made aware of it, and was rather impressed.

      Not only was it 'quick', but a listing of all the
      lists you are subscribed to appears to the side,
      each showing how many chatters are in each
      room at a given time. So it would appear to be
      be possible to move from room to room rather

      In addition, it offers the ability to privately chat with
      selected individuals signed into the 'active' room.

      Has anyone tried it yet?

      Here's the address:


    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.