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HIGHLIGHTS for THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2000

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  • Old_Hag@webtv.net
    Highlights for Thursday, March 9, 2000 Hello all dears: Sorry these late. The raccoon ate the first draft. Hoping to still get smiley face.
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 11, 2000
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      Highlights for Thursday, March 9, 2000

      Hello all dears:
      Sorry these late. The raccoon ate the first draft. Hoping to still get
      smiley face.

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      JERRY STARTS US OFF
      WITH TWO QUOTES ABOUT BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF "EM:

      JERRY: two of several quotes posted by K on Allspirit:

      "Looking at the stars always makes me dream, as simply as I dream over
      the black dots representing towns and villages on a map. Why, I ask
      myself, shouldn't the shining dots of the sky be as accessible as the
      black dots on the map of France?"
        -- Vincent van Gogh

      "Look at the stars! Look up at the skies! O look at all the fire folk
      sitting in the air!' The bright boroughs, the circle-citadels there!"
      -- Gerard M. Hopkins -- The Starlight Night

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "Who are you kidding," OR
      MATTHEW OPENS HIS COHEN FILE AND FEW ARE SHOCKED:

      MATTHEW:
      Excerpt from an interview with A. Cohen

      Question:I'm very confused about this matter of ethical conduct and its
      relationship to the enlightened understanding that you speak so much
      about. Why is it that so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same
      weaknesses as ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had
      died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as people who did
      not claim to be enlightened."

      Andrew Cohen: "Maybe in the cases that you are speaking about, the ego
      didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a fully intact ego coexisting
      with a profound realization. Most people don't realize that ego and
      profound realization can coexist. It is for that reason that so many
      people have gotten into trouble."
        the last two sentences are the point of this little post. I think
      that for most of us though, it doesn't mean getting into trouble, just
      staying terribly deluded about where we think ourselves to be at. Which
      i suppose is trouble enough.

      DAN: I submit that it's we ourselves who create these problems by
      dividing the world into "realized" and "unrealized," "ego's" and
      "egoless".

      Why do we search for egoless people?
      What do we hope to gain? Is not our search driven by ego, are not our
      evaluations of "others' realizations" largely evidence of our own ego,
      that is, our attachment to a process invested in an outcome and
      dependent on identification with a "seeking entity"?

      Why do we strive to be more egoless
        than we are? Are we not simply deceiving ourselves in the process
      of our own "search"? Why do we project onto "others" our desires for an
      "egoless state"? Do we not construct a split awareness in the process of
      trying to find or achieve an egoless state from our present position
      which we label "ego-centered"?

      Unsplit awareness cannot be the product of evaluation and comparison.
      Once we begin comparing and evaluating the ego-centered and the
      ego-less, split awareness has occurred.

      Why not simply be with ourselves, as we
        are, without evaluation and splitting of awareness?

      Can we not relinquish this entire search, and the need to classify and
      evaluate
        "others"?

      The air is egoless.
      Why not simply breathe in
        the egoless air, that is giving
       itself for free, and be content?
      Why not rest in egoless space,
       provided unselfishly, and rest there?
      Why not be Original Awareness, the
       Unknown itself?

      Then, being fully Unknown, knowing
       All as All - we won't be deceived, we
       won't seek, we won't look
       "outside" for an "egoless realizer".
      Why do we believe we need to find
       an "egoless realizer" in order for
       all to be right with the universe
        (which is ultimately an egoless universe)? Why not be freedom
      rather than seeking to evaluate which people are the truly free ones?

      The universe already is egoless.
      Does it really need an "egoless realizer" to be added to its already
        "empty" Being?

      Does "emptiness" identify itself
       to itself as "emptiness"?
      That is, does It state to everyone
       "I am truly egoless, so learn from
          me?" Or does it simply go
       its "empty" Way - not drawing
       attention to itself, freely
       giving Life to All?

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "The True Hearer must hear, and in Hearing it outs"
      OR PIETER OFFERS SIMPLISTIC PROFUNDITY:

      PIETER: It may sound too simplistic to say this, but we are already that
      which we
      are trying to give a Name to.
      It's somewhat like the story of the seven blind men, each holding a part
      of the elephant and saying "The elephant is..." and they describe their
      experience.
      That Light that is our True Self, our very being, That through which we
      see, enables the mind to provide a description of what this Self must
      be.

      "The Light shineth in the darkness (mind) and the darkness comprehendeth
      it not." John Ch I:5.
      Thus we are all blind, and while holding to the Elephant Self, we are
      each
      describing our own experience and say "The Elephant (Self) is ......."
      ("I am this and that..")

      All the practices and all the psychic, pranic, mystic sensory and extra
      sensory and Kundalini experiences we all try to convey in trying to give
      a Name to the experiencer by referencing the experience are not the
      Experiencer.

      There is nothing that can be done, no practice to be engaged in that
      will result in this awakening.

      The True Hearer, the True Seer is always already awake. Relinquishing
      the grasping of attention, relinquishing the need for naming the
      experience, we abide singly as Self. It's as though we are all on a Path
      that we cannot see. Each of us crawling along the roadway feeling in the
      darkness and calling out to others we feel will call back to us with our
      mutual descriptions of like experiences that give us the sense that we
      are all in some way on track. So, if all the attempts to describe and
      give a name to the experience are ultimately of no use whatsoever, like
      blind leading the blind by road maps they cannot see, what is the
      solution? There is no solution, only relinquishment. Alternatively,
      there are those on the Path that do see, as Christ said in a prayer to
      the Father in John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou has
      given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which
      you have given me: For you have loved me from before the foundation of
      the world."

      Reading such books with the words of the Illuminated, such as those that
      can be found for example on the website
      http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ with the single attitude of an "earnest
      quest" and without trying to name or wrap any impression with a thought
      or attention, that which is True begins to shine of Its Own accord,
      Itself dissolving the fog that now fills the mind. Others include "Faith
      Mind" of the Third Zen Patriarch or Ch 26 of the Ribhu Gita.

      By such rereading, the True Hearer hears Its Name and shines forth the
      Truth of Its own accord.

      Or for those that believe in the Light a that illumines the Way from the
      Bible, reading and rereading the First and Second Commandments of the
      Nameless God "I AM" to Moses. These Commandments are forceful statements
      against having any images before the sense of "I AM" and commanding
      against the use of the word "I" in relation to any impressions regarding
      a self-identity (which Christ calls the sin against the Holy Spirit -
      the unforgivable sin). Unfortunately, these Commandments have
      degenerated into the vague idea that they referred to idols and cussing.
      When this single seer (the subject "I") is realized to be ones Self,
      there is an automatic "Enlightenment of the Whole Body."

      "The light of the body is the eye (the seer/subject "I"): Therefore,
      when thine eye is single, thy whole body will be filled with light...."
      Luke
      11:34

      "The way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views are
      fearful and irresolute." ----   "When thought is in bondage, the Truth
      is hidden" (from Faith Mind - Third Zen Patriarch) The Way involves the
      relinquishing of all impressions.

      "Go first to God ("I AM") and all things will be added unto you." Luke
      12:31

      For those with the view that all religions are teaching a single Truth,
      if we could somehow hear it, the rereading of
      http://www.nonduality.com/pieter.htm is also a help in disengaging the
      habit
      of the mind towards attention.
      "Those that have ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit has to
      say..."
      In hearing, we abide singly as Self - "empty, clear, self-illuminating,
      with no exertion of the mind's power." from Faith Mind.

      Having read this text above, don't you feel the outshining? the
      Transfiguration in the Singularity of the Heart?

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "What goes around..."
      OR NEXT TIME YOU GET BOGGED DOWN, BE SURE A SCOTTISH FARMER IS AROUND.

      PIETER: I thought this is such a great historical story, really
      worthwhile to pass it on. The story goes...

      His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish farmer. One day while
      trying to make a living for his family, he heard a cry for help coming
      from a nearby bog. He dropped his tools and ran to the bog. There, mired
      to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy, screaming and
      struggling to himself. Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have
      been a slow and terrifying death.

      The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the Scotsman's sparse
      surroundings. An elegantly dressed nobleman stepped out and introduced
      himself as the father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved. "I want to
      repay you," said the nobleman. "You saved my son's life." "No, I can't
      accept payment for what I did," the Scottish farmer replied, waving off
      the offer. At that moment, the farmer's own son came to the door of the
      family hovel. "Is that your son?" the nobleman asked. "Yes," the farmer
      replied proudly. "I'll make you a deal. Let me take him and give him a
      good education. If the lad is anything like his father, he'll grow to a
      man you can be proud of." And that he did.

      In time, Farmer Fleming's son graduated from St Mary's Hospital Medical
      School in London, and went on to become known throughout the world as
      the noted Sir Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin. Years
      afterward, the nobleman's son was stricken with pneumonia. What saved
      him? Penicillin. The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill. His
      son's name? Sir Winston Churchill.

      Someone once said: What goes around comes around. Work like you don't
      need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's
      watching.  
      Pass this on and brighten someone's day. Nothing will happen if you do
      not decide to pass it along. The only thing that will happen, if you DO
      pass it on, is that someone might smile (because of you).

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "Dan L/the road," OR
      WHERE ARE THE TIN MAN AND SCARECROW WHEN YOU NEED THEM?

      DAN L: Detachment. I feel sometimes that there is Nothing At All! And I
      go
      about whatever Im doing with a detached feeling for people and events as
      I have never before. In my Heart I feel I love everyone but it seems to
      be a distraction to always pay attention to them as before. a small
      instance. Walking down the block and smiling to everyone or always
      putting on a pleasant face in the neighborhood. It seems meaningless to
      me now. But I will help anyone if I can. Am I on the wrong road with all
      this?

      MARCIA: The personality strutting and "paying attention" is meaningless
      but a heartfelt look into someone's eyes where there is an essence
      connection is not meaningless at all.

      DAN (PrettyhipDude responding to Dan L):
      The detachment is to identification.
      Become passive to your identifications not to what is real between
      people. What you wish for is real feeling which can't happen when the
      ego is in charge.
      How can you be on the wrong road?
      The road you walk is yourself.
      Your road is walking "you".

      To be honest, you sound like you
        are dealing with a lot right now.
      Perhaps you are finding the right
        balance, the right way to deal
       with things that fits for you.
      Experience as is, experience
       exactly as that which arises
       here now, not picking or choosing.
      Who is in a position to criticize or
       to say it should be another way?
      The key things for me are openness, learning, noninvestment in a
      particular outcome. Detachment, attachment, and a balance "in between"
      which is simply "being".

      To every thing there is a season, a season to detach, and a season to
      find support from others, sharing one's experiencing with others. Too
      much detachment can be imbalance, as can overinvolvement be imbalance.
      Forcing oneself is useless, what Life brings naturally forth from one is
      correct for one.

      Each has his or her own Way, each has
       his or her own balance. Find the
       balance that is you, walk the Way
       that is true to you.

      HARSHA:
      Beautifully put by Adi Dan!
      You are path, the way, and the light!
      You will come to Your Self
      through your self!
      And then,
        It Will Be Now!
      As It Is Now!
      in Heaven and Earth!

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "Knowledge and phil...."
      OR MANCHINE AND PHIL'S EXCITING ADVENTURE.

      DAN L: I want to tell you about a friend of mine. His name is phil. He's
      been around forever or at least since when I stuck the nail in the light
      socket at some early age.
      At first I didn't see him, but he was there and was always showing me
      stuff.
      He comes from a different place. Recently in trying to show someone I
      AM,
      I was reminded of how I began to get to know phil. I really haven't
      known
      him personally for very long, maybe 2 or three years, but once I got to
      know him
      I realized how long I had known him, and became very thankful for all he
      has
      done.

      Phil is not at all like us, but he is very real. The link between his
      world
      and ours lies most strongly in the subconscious. He exists predominantly
      in
      another dimension, that is non-physical. For this reason, our conscious
      mind
      is not very receptive to his presence. The conscious receives background
      message
      from the subconscious which feeds them to the ego, from there were O.K.,
      but
      we receive the messages as "our creations". Phil is very patient. The
      first time I saw him I was preparing for a controlled dream adventure
      with my wife. We had been working together so that she could learn how
      to control her dreams. She had never done it, but was keenly interested
      in trying. We prepared
      before bedding down, where she would key in to being vigilent for me and
      when I
      entered into the dream, I would gently touch her arm and we would move
      together in the dream.

      I sensed the dream lifting my head looked around the bedroom, obviously
      dark. Slowly I looked at her beside me and she was facing away. I began
      to
      reach for her, and
      the I sensed the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I looked up
      toward
      the ceiling and saw a faint patch like static electricity moving. It
      made a couple of
      rather quick moves and then raced out through the ceiling, I had a
      tremendous
      desire to follow, but my attention returned to my wife, who was not
      there. I
      woke up.

      When I woke up she was awake and a little agitated. She said she had
      woken
      up in
      her dream and tried to get out of bed, but her body had no mass
      whatsover
      and
      she ended up bouncing off of the walls. I had to laugh, couldn't get the
      picture
      out of my mind. She didn't think it was so funny though. I didn't tell
      her
      she was
      lucky the walls contained her.

      Well anyways. Later that day, it dawned on me, that I had seen phil.
      Aside
      from the
      initial "hair on the back of the neck" feeling, I had sensed "the way to
      knowledge".

      I made it a task to wait for him, but he didn't come right away. I felt
      him
      more
      in waking life, but he is flighty and I was too clumsy and slow to
      follow
      him,
      although he always left little goodies.

      He came a couple of other times, but again, the "hair on the back of the
      neck"
      sensation or his strange transmorphic activities would distract me, and
      he'd
      be gone. Finally one time I had the awareness to put it together, he was
      just
      about
      ready to leave, like flash, flash I screamed "wait take me!" Then, I
      have never moved like that in my life before, I felt like I went
      zig-zagging over
      100,000,000 miles in seconds. Then dead stop... silence.... energy and
      anything I wanted to know was there, surrounded by a kind of spongey
      grey-brown web of
      energy.

      I feared to enter, feeling as though I would never come out. I still
      haven't
      gone back, but phil brings me tidbits every now and again. He's at the
      interface between the conscious and the subconscious, and only
      when you
      are receptive and open. When the being is stripped of all preconception,
      will he
      touch your soul and share a piece of I AM.
      P.S. I'd tell you about agnes, but she's downright dangerous!  

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "A Whiff of Scent will do it!" ALSO KNOWN AS EAU DE RUCUS:

      TONY'S POST: The passing scent of perfume can cause a rebirth. No matter
      how intellectually 'realised', we are if the
      senses are not fully under control, it is all for naught.

      JODY: Wrong. There is no such thing as "intellectual" realization. There
      is the movement of experiential
      identification away from the idea of 'me', but this
      is not an intellectual or emotional phenomena.

      TONY'S POST: Desire is what prevents 'realisation', for Who is the
      enjoyer? None but the ego! Desire and attachment can
      be channeled into love for the Self, or an image of
      the Self, or Love itself.

      JODY: Desire for realization prevents realization. Expectations
      about realization prevent realization. Ideas of self
      loathing prevent realization. Normal desires for food,
      comfort, etc. are components of the body/mind and will
      not in and of themselves prevent realization.

      TONY'S POST One thought/desire will prevent a final release from
      illusion. This is the problem with misdirection of
      intellect, more refined thoughts more refined desires.

      JODY: Wrong again. I'm afraid you simply don't have a clue
      Tony.
      I'll say it again. The body/mind continues to function
      after the blessing of realization has occurred. While
      realization does not happen *to* the mind, the mind is
      present for the event, and therefore can form impressions
      about the event and it's ongoing existence in the life of the jiva.

      TONY'S POST: I see people write about non-duality in most
      magnificient terms, that I couldn't emulate, and yet
      turn around and describe a pleasureful experience. Who
      enjoyed?

      JODY: Shakti enjoys.

      TONY'S POST: This is why it is necessary to purify, body, mind and
      intellect.

      JODY: You're speaking from outside your station again.

      TONY'S POST: Somebody said that I was obsessed and that I was
      ignoring advice being offered. I'm sorry if I seem
      rude but my obsessions are in the words of accepted
      Jivanmuktis, I see no reason to modify or question
      their advice. My experiences so far bear out what they
      have said. I don't write here for approval or non-approval.

      JODY: Your misinterpretation of the words of your Jivanmuktis
      have become your biggest hindrance I'm afraid.

      ~~ROGER RESPONDS TO TONY:

      TONY'S POST: The passing scent of perfume can cause a rebirth. No matter
      how intellectually 'realised', we are if the
      senses are not fully under control, it is all for naught.

      ROGER: Who is it that is concerned with rebirth? Why is rebirth seen as
      a problem?

      This is false Hindu escapist doctrine!
      The senses are not the problem. Trying to escape from the senses, or as
      you
      do in this post, condemning the senses will not release you. (noting
      that
      withdrawl seems useful on some paths or at some times)

      Recognize the egoic identification at work here. The tell-tale smoke of
      ego
      identification is the process of trying to gain security and trying to
      avoid
      the opposite.

      The Hindu escapist doctrine trys to avoid rebirth, trys to avoid the
      senses,
      trys to avoid the ego. This "trying to avoid" is the ego identification
      itself contracting away from what is deemed unpleasurable.

      The senses report the beauty of life, they report God as creation. By
      condemning the senses you condemn God and remain in the cycle of endless
      identification with pleasure/pain. Why not see God in existance, why not
      recognize God within you and around you? Can realization occur without
      recognizing God as creation.

      This Hindu condemnation of the senses and of manifest creation is a form
      of
      masochism. See it as it is. Don't we love to condemn our natural
      impulses
      and glory in this condemnation, and place ourselves superior to those
      who we
      deem corruptly sensual. See how this is just the animal survival
      instinct
      trying to gain something over others?

      The problem is not the senses, the illusion is the identification with
      thought/emotion. Put your attention totally on the sight of some object.

      What is there? Stillness! If you put your attention totally on the smell
      of
      the perfume, thought must stop, emotion must stop, and consequently the
      false identification is interrupted. (noting that tantra or using the
      senses
      is only one way and not for everyone)

      TONY'S POST: Desire is what prevents 'realisation', for Who is the
      enjoyer?

      ROGER: Desire is also what leads to realisation. Desire is the
      evolutionary
      impulse. Identification with desire is the illusion, and desire will
      assist
      in the eventual destruction of the illusion.

      TONY'S POST: None but the ego! Desire and attachment can be channeled
      into love for the Self, or an image of the Self, or Love itself.
      One thought/desire will prevent a final release from illusion.

      ROGER: Doesn't thought continue as appropriate after release? Doesn't
      desire
      continue after realization but then as a servant rather than master?

      TONY'S POST: This is the problem with misdirection of
      intellect, more refined thoughts more refined desires.

      ROGER: Discrimination as "not this" is an effective spiritual tool (but
      not the
      only tool available), intellectualization is just more of the problem.

      TONY'S POST: I see people write about non-duality in most
      magnificient terms, that I couldn't emulate, and yet
      turn around and describe a pleasureful experience. Who
      enjoyed?

      ROGER: Good point. But you seem to be pointing outward at the behavior
      of others
      failing to note the Chinese axiom: while one finger points outward be
      aware
      that 3 other fingers point back at yourself.

      TONY'S POST: This is why it is necessary to purify, body, mind and
      intellect. Somebody said that I was obsessed and that I was ignoring
      advice being offered.

      ROGER: Passion is admirable. But we have to understand when egoic
      identification
      stains pure silent passion.

      TONY'S POST: I'm sorry if I seem
      rude but my obsessions are in the words of accepted Jivanmuktis, I see
      no reason to modify or question their advice.

      ROGER: You fail to note that there is endless diversity in the words of
      the wise.
      Any problem must be examined from several different positions. You seem
      to
      place your favored opinion against diversity.

      Find reality in your experience (ie knowledge by identity) rather than
      smugly fondling the dead thoughts of others!!!

      TONY'S POST: My experiences so far bear out what they have said. I don't
      write here for approval or non-approval.

      ROGER: If in your experience you still compulsively think, then why? Are
      the static
      passions of accepted authority leading beyond thought? Or are they just
      providing a smug secure yet putrid illusion?

      ~~MELODY RESPONDS TO JODY:

      JODYR'S POST (TO TONY):
      Your'e speaking from outside your station again.

      MELODY:
      And again. And again. :-)

      "It's the same old story,
      Same old song and dance my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old story same old song and dance.
      Fate comes a knockin',
      Doors start lockin',
      Your old time connection,
      Change your direction,
      You ain't gonna change it,
      Can't rearrange it,
      Can't stand the pain when,
      It's all the same to you my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old song and dance my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old song same old song and dance.

      JODY: What, are you bored or somethin'? ;)

      MELODY:
      Just felt like singing! :-)

      "It's the same old story,
      Same old song and dance my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old story same old song and dance.
      Fate comes a knockin',
      Doors start lockin',
      Your old time connection,
      Change your direction,
      You ain't gonna change it,
      Can't rearrange it,
      Can't stand the pain when,
      It's all the same to you my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old song and dance my friend.
      It's the same old story,
      Same old song same old song and dance."

      ~~HARSHA RESPONDS TO TONY AND ELICITS MEA CULPAS:

      TONY'S POST: I do not seek approval or disapproval.

      HARSHA: We approve! We approve! Honestly Tony, I think you are totally
      authentic. Yes, the mind does merge in the Heart. Love,

      ROGER: Harsha, you never fail to invoke warmth in me. And if Tony
      stimulates that
      impulse in you then, well, what else can be said.

      I am touched by love, but my style is "not this!, not this!, not this!"

      I can hardly speak without the words somehow having a "not this"
      character.
      I am saying: Love is NOT condemnation of the senses, NOT condemnation of
      desire, NOT celebration of authority, NOT even approval or confirmation
      of
      an individual etc...

      Tony & Harsha, please accept my comments as one perspective. My intent
      is to take aim at what appears to me to be illusory. I am sincerely not
      intending
      to attack any personality. I might accidentally step over the line
      occasionally and I remain watchful for this

      JODY: I hope Roger doesn't mind my appropriating his apology for myself
      as well. I certainly don't mean to attack anyone's person with my
      cutting words. I'm trying to wield the sword of discrimination (Roger's
      neti, neti) and separate the truth from the assumption.

      My displays of impatience are just that.

      The one I'm being impatient
      with is myself of the past. I held all the same assumptions that I
      now attack so vigorously. At the present moment Tony is the one
      who is reflecting my previous ignorance, and so therefore his posts
      get my immediate attention.

      Tony, whether or not you believe me, you are wrong in your assumptions
      about realization. They are based on your *interpretation* of your
      reading of the jivanmuktis. Unless one is realized, one cannot
      comprehend with much clarity what the jivanmuktis are saying, as
      one's foundation for viewing their words is murky with ignorance.

      When one is blessed with realization, one understands how all
      assumptions about realization fall woefully short of the actual
      experience. It cannot be interpreted, only experienced. Until
      the experience is had, all words, whether read or written, will
      fall well short of being adequate

      MELODY: Jody, I appreciate this statement very much. Very much, indeed.
      You have peaked my curiousity, as well as my appreciation:

      If, as you say.... Tony is reflecting your previous ignorance, which is
      the reason you respond to his posts as you do -
      how do you square that with your earlier statement to Tony,

      JODY'S POST: There is no such thing as "intellectual" realization.
      There is the movement of experiential identification away from the idea
      of 'me', but this is not an intellectual or emotional phenomena.

      MELODY: In order for you to be impatient with Tony....seemingly based on
      your feelings and thoughts about being 'ignorant' in the past....
      wouldn't you still have to be identified with the idea of
      'me'.....wouldn't you have
      to be hearing Tony thru the 'me' lens of the past?

      JODY: Yes, in a way. I hear Tony through the 'me' memory.
      Realization does not obliterate the memory of 'me'.
      What I'm calling the idea of 'me' is the *essential*
      bondage that ties us to knowing ourselves as individuals
      *exclusively*. Upon moksha, this essential bond is broken.

      The sense of identity is no longer bound in ideas of meness.
      Ideas of meness still exist, but the jiva is cut loose
      from them.

      MELODY'S POST: If the truth be told, don't many of us still do that?

      JODY: It's called projection. I would say that almost all of us
      do it to some degree at various times. It's a very natural
      tendency of the mind.

      MELODY'S POST: I wonder if that is what Tony means when he says
      maybe only 1 or 2 people in the U.S. are enlightened....

      JODY: It could very well be.
      Realization comes, enlightenment follows. I can imagine
      that one who has been realized for a long time, practicing
      intense sadhanas both before and after realization, may
      eventually lose all traces of meness. And as Tony suggests,
      these folk probably don't have much to say.

      MELODY'S POST: maybe he is estimating that only a couple can see so
      clearly....so cleanly in the here and now....unencumbered
      .....that their 'past' no longer drives their 'nows'?

      JODY: Well, there are moments of great clarity in realization,
      and the difference between the enlightened and the
      realized may be the duration of them.

      Great saints are
      famous for relating stories from their past to illustrate
      their teachings, so memory exists for the enlightened
      as well.

      My "mission" is to eradicate all that I perceive to have
      stood in the way of my realization. These were my
      expectations about realization, and my assumptions about
      the necessity of asceticism. My hot buttons if you will.

      When I see them expressed in others I attempt a correction.
      For whatever reason, it makes me feel better to do so. Who
      is feeling better? Shakti, in the form of my personality,
      is enjoying the enterprise. Who am I to refuse her? ;)

      ~~HARSHA COVERS THE BASES:
      I know you are totally genuine Roger.
      Roger & Tony & Jody & Marcia & Mke & Michael, Sarlo and others. I enjoy
      the perspective that you share and they all make sense to me. I guess
      love is blind :--). By the way, I like the word putrid that you used
      Roger in your post. It had a certain whiff of fragrant humor for me!
      Having perspectives implies differences. Differences are differences and
      nothing more. Sameness is Sameness and nothing more. Jan could beat both
      Sarlo and Dan in bowing. Who can compete with a Fruitarian! And Marcia,
      you do sound different. Did you get a hair cut?

      ~~TONY GETS THE LAST WORD(S)I(S)(S)(S):

      TONY: The definition of realisation obviously meansdifferent things to
      different people. To me it means Self-realisation. NO MIND. To avoid
      misunderstanding
      in what I write I will use the word Moksha, (or moha kshaya, destroy
      illusion.)

      The levels are also interesting whether it is kosas, or lokas, or Mind,
      super mind, higher mind, illuminated mind, over mind etc. Then we have
      the mind
      of Saguna Brahman which operates when the mind of a mukti is dead, but
      only whilst the mukti looks out,
      when the mukti looks in, it is to nirvikalpa samadhi.

      Vedantic thought doesn't despise the world or the senses, they have
      their place in development.This is a
      common misconception in The West particular.

      The senses are not denied but 'attachment' to the fruits of them. It is
      the original impediment or are
      Sankara, Buddha so wrong? What else can turn the attention outward
      instead of inward but the senses?

      With regard to rebirth, notice my choice of words. I didn't say
      reincarnation, which infers a personality.I am talking about rebirth of
      the ego and its
      samskaras or tendencies.

      Every desire has to be risen above and burnt to a seed, check Patanjali.
      Ramana I believe was programming his mother's desires and samskaras out
      as she was dying, unfortunately she sneezed and left the body, no doubt
      for rebirth.

      With regard to desiring food, yes it is a legitimate desire and in this
      yuga people die quickly without fuel. So the eating of food will not
      bind one but
      desiring a pepperoni pizza, alcohol, tobacco etcwill.

      Having a close to non-dual condition in the mind doesn't necessarily
      eliminate desires of the senses.

      Unless one is using the word mind to mean sakti, mahat, or Saguna
      Brahman etc.

      One may achieve certain samadhis but samskaras and attachments will drag
      one back.

      With regard to the statements of Jivanmuktis, I find they are clear and
      understandable---no gobbledook!
      Much clearer than on these lists in fact. I keep hearing Churchill's
      statement that the best English is that which everyone understands.

      Sankara said that death is a separation from our desires. However if one
      has achieved moksha there is
      no birth or death.

      I'm sorry if you still like sense pleasures, you won't or we won't make
      it, it is as simple as that. How do
      you think we are here???

      A whiff of perfume will do it, create a samskara! As Jesus said be ye
      perfect as my father in heaven is,
      and not one jot or tittle may be left all must be paid, or words to that
      effect.


      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      THREAD: "Realization and NonDuality" OR LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

      ROGER: NonDuality has absolutely nothing to do with realization
      !!!!!!!!

      JAN: The perspective that it has, it that realization (defined as
      "recognizing who you are and always was") could be called a
      "start" for "factual" nonduality.

      ROGER'S POST: People on this email list (NDS) fall into 2 groups: the
      realized and the
      non-realized. One might think that NonDuality is the "way",
      but this is
      absolutely not the case.

      JAN: When fully engaged in a certain task, who is thinking of name,
      family and friends? They are temporarily forgotten. Likewise,
      one's real nature is temporarily forgotten due to
      identifications. That doesn't classify for a different group:)

      Regarding ways, there are thousands of proverbial ways, all
      leading to Rome. "Rome" reads "factual" nonduality and if it
      were dependent on a path, it would be worthless.

      ROGER'S POST: For an unrealized person, NonDuality theory points to the
      highest truth,
      however, thoughts about nonDuality can be misleading, digressive,
      distracting, obstructive. Identification with thought/emotion is the
      barrior
      to realization. Therefore, thoughts about NonDuality are the barrior
      dressed
      up in different clothes. "Exchange unprofitable speculation
      for actual God
      Realization" [Yogananda from probably inaccurate memory]

      JAN: Some time ago in a usenet news group there was a thread on
      "watering down", that is, once a teaching having settled on
      North American soil, it will change according to the law "time
      is money" so preparation / practice is left out. Jokingly
      expressed, it is boiled down to detached enjoyment.

      ROGER'S POST: Realization is a particular stage, Osho describes it as
      level 4, Maharishi
      M. Yogi as level 5, Barry Long as level 4... Steiner,
      Gurdjieff, Aurobindo:
      all have similiar descriptions.
      Stages are always from the perspective of the mind. Regarding
      the modifications the mind (and body) will undergo, it has a
      certain value and probably was used in ancient cultures as
      well, for instance the Sumerian hats with a certain number of
      horns on it. The "recognition of Self" would count as 1 :)

      Nonduality is a more advanced stage, Osho suggests it
      becomes a possibility
      at level 5, MMY at level 6-7, BL describes levels 5-7.
      (quotes available on
      request but I don't have the books handy now)

      Unless this is specified in terms of modifications of mind, it
      has no practical value. Remember that in Jainism nonduality
      becomes "factual" when the first 4 karmas have been burnt,
      leaving 4 others.
      NonDuality or Advaita Vedanta is the 6th System of Indian
      Philosophy. If you're unrealized the appropriate system is the 4th
      System
      of Indian
      Philosophy called Yoga. (not just Hatha yoga but all the
      other types & tantra too).

      JAN: There has been an era when there was no division in various
      kinds of yoga and philosophy; it was when recognition of
      "Self" was much more common and easier than it is today.
      If ya put the cart before the horse yer not going anywhere!
      Before there were metaled roads, a trained long distance
      runner could outperform a horse in a 24 hours race - who needs
      horse and cart?

      ROGER'S POST: MMY says something like: the actual experiential reality
      of
      NonDuality is
      entirely & totally & completely incomprehensible by the
      ordinary mind. So,
      if one is unrealized, it's just a pointing. The work to be done is to be
      still. "Stillness is the Way" [BL]. Drop
      intellectualization, drop thoughts,
      ¤all thoughts, especially those about NonDuality !

      JAN: MMY is right; "factual" nonduality could be said to end
      experience once and for all. The most effective pointing is
      DEATH and DYING. It is unavoidable and when fully realizing this, how
      can one enjoy "business as usual?" Pleasure and pain are but the two
      sides of the same coin, one isn't possible
      without the other and both have to be given up once. "In order
      to find Life, one has to lose life first", the Kathopanishad,
      "dying while remaining alive", it all points to same: the
      "sour apple" comes before the nectar. The "nectar of
      immortality" will flow spontaneously whereas the "sour apple"
      has to be processed in (inner) solitude.

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Twinkle, twinkle, little star
      How I wonder what you are.
      Up above the sky so high,
      Like a diamond in the sky.
      Twinkle, twinkle little star,
      How I wonder what you are.

      love,
      oh
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