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Tuesday/March 7

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Tony, Now I feel your Heart. I did float on a scared bubble with many here. Sharing feelings across neural webs. Immediately Knowing, whom realized. You are
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 8, 2000

      Now I feel your Heart.

      I did float on a scared
      bubble with many here.
      Sharing feelings across
      neural webs. Immediately
      Knowing, whom realized.

      You are correct, It is
      not often said, discussed.

      But we always knew each
      other, after the shield
      came down. Many on these

      And now i sense further
      change. i can no longer
      play. I was realized,
      before last week, this
      week i am no more.

      All of my sensibilities
      changed. I am suited
      now to watch and live.

      I right these words,
      not of my will.

      If you would lift me up,
      you must be on higher ground.

      My Heart is yours, Tony.




      ROGER: Touch can also be a way out of the illusion: while
      making love go totally into the sensation, become the
      sensation. (paraphrasing from memory Barry Long's book
      'making love')

      JAN: That is a matter of interpretation: escaping one
      illusion by fleeing into another one :) The illusion is the
      seemingly obliged detour for satisfaction... Self is
      satisfaction itself.

      R: The illusion is identification with thought & emotion.
      When totally present in sensation, the identification with
      thought & emotion is interrupted.

      Touch is not an illusion, touch is in the present, touch is

      J: Touch is but one of the senses and substituting 'taste'
      for 'touch' in your response has to be the best excuse for
      obesity yet :)

      Good appetite - NOW - and be one with hamburger (LOL)

      R: There's a tantric sutra something like "seeing, hearing,
      touching, tasting; become the taste of the food".

      Compulsive eating is an emotional disorder. When we place
      all attention into the taste of the food, the identification
      with compulsive emotion is broken.
      If the food is unhealthy or inappropriate the taste will
      inform us.

      It's putting consciousness fully into the act of taste,
      eating or touching as meditation. Compulsive eating is (BTW
      where are my cookies?) an unconscious act.


      I would like to put this question before you all.
      Everything that appears in your mind, appears there because
      of some form of resistance. Without resistance, we would
      not become aware of it. I am not sure if this is so,
      therefor let me know how you see this.

      In the East people have condemned the body, condemned
      matter, called matter "illusory," maya--it does not really
      exist, it only appears to exist; it is made of the same
      stuff as dreams are made of. They denied the world, and
      that is the reason for the East remaining poor, sick, in
      starvation. Half of humanity has been accepting the inner
      world but denying the outer world. The other half of
      humanity has been accepting the material world and denying
      the inner world. Both are half, and no man who is half can
      be contented. You have to be whole: rich in the body, rich
      in science; rich in meditation, rich in consciousness. Only
      a whole person is a holy person, according to me. I want
      Zorba and Buddha to meet together. Zorba alone is hollow.
      His dance has not an eternal significance, it is momentary
      pleasure. Soon he will be tired of it. Unless you have
      inexhaustible sources, available to you from the cosmos
      itself...unless you become existential, you cannot become
      whole. This is my contribution to humanity: the whole

      Osho, Communism and Zen Fire, Zen Wind, Chapter 2


      My relationship with Osho has deepened so much over the past
      few weeks, this welling up of love for him is so large.....

      I hear him as if he is 'Me' talking to 'me'.....inviting
      'me'....enfolding 'me'.....opening 'me'.....dissolving 'me'.


      "Only matter exists": this is the deception in the west.
      Consciousness is said to be just an artifact of the material

      In the east the opposite deception prevails: consciousness
      alone is said to exist and the material world is an illusion
      to be escaped. The east tells us "the whole point is to get
      off the wheel of karma, to escape into nothingness".

      These attitudes are a swing between two opposites. The
      razors edge between these opposites is love & truth.

      We can see this polarity at work challenging us every day.
      The polarity is always there, first it swings one way, then
      the other. It's all pervasive.
      In every situation. Do you see it? Steiner indicates that
      this polarity is the fundamental challenge. The inner
      versus the outer: will it be integration or separation &

      In the west our school children are regularly killing each
      other, and in the east NonDuality theory responds "it's just
      an illusion". How could a gulf ever be larger?



      The real integration is the third position which integrates
      the inner integration and the outer fragmentation.

      Your thinking was three term till you got to the sentence
      "integration or separation and fragmentation" where you fell
      into a two term framework. (I think <s>)

      If you stay in the space between the inner integration and
      the outer fragmentation rather than bouncing back and forth
      from one to the other than you will be walking the razor's


      "For the Mayans, Zero was the Death God among their lords of
      the underworld, and men adopting the persona of Zero were
      ritualistically sacrificed in hopes of staving off the day
      of zero, the time when time itself would stop. Only much
      later was zero reinterpreted as a symbol of God's power to
      create a lot out of naught."

      (contributed by Eric)

      Alan Watts supposes that most liberation acheived through
      the traditional guru-disciple was accomplished through the
      controlled art of deception by the guru.

      "But the world of knowledge may, like the earth, be
      round--so that an immersion in material paticulars may quite
      unexpectedly lead back to the universal and transcendant.
      Blake's idea that 'the fool who persists in this folly will
      become wise' is the same as Spinoza's 'the more we know of
      particular thing's, the more we know about God' For this is,
      as we have seen was the essential technique of liberation:
      to encourage the student to explore his false premises
      consistently-to the end."

      Mr. Watts wants to show that the logical conclusion of
      becoming aware of the double-bind that social institutions
      have us caught in will release us from maya. The romantics
      who say 'to hell with it, lets do as we will' are just as
      bound to the illusion by their subtle attempts at purposeful
      spontaneity. The logical conclusion of strict Christian
      doctrine is also a subtle trick, a koan, to let us see the
      double-bind by its commandment that thou MUST love the lord
      with thy whole being, not because we are told to but out of
      our own free will.

      This double-bind is disturbing. I notice now all the
      instants where i am unloving, but i know theoretically that
      love can't be willed. By theoretically i mean, i dont
      believe I let myself fall all the way into the trap, or the
      trap is forming itself on more subtler levels and avoiding
      my perception.

      Unless one has experientially FELT liberation, he is still
      involved in a contradictory situation. If one assumes he
      has an intellectual grasp of it, without the surrender from
      a complete exhaustion of all personal efforts, it will
      remain just an 'idea'

      Oh this tiresome intellect, why do I feel I must know God's

      just thought i'd share some of todays readings that touched
      me. We talk best about what we most need to learn i guess.



      Alan Watts supposes that most liberation acheived through
      the traditional guru-disciple was accomplished through the
      controlled art of deception by the guru.

      DAN: That's because Alan asssumed there is one person
      confronting another person in such a way that the first
      person leads the second person to see something. This is a
      conceptual formulation of what happens. It leaves out the
      nonconceptual reality of what happens. The nonconceptual
      reality is all important, although it cannot be stated in
      such a way that the intellect can grasp it. The
      nonconceptual is key - and it doesn't fit Alan Watt's
      formulations, nor anyone else's. The nonconceptual is
      conceptualizing Alan Watts, Alan Watts isn't able to
      conceptualize the nonconceptual!

      RICK: "But the world of knowledge may, like the earth, be
      round--so that an immersion in material paticulars may quite
      unexpectedly lead back to the universal and transcendant.
      Blake's idea that 'the fool who persists in this folly will
      become wise' is the same as Spinoza's 'the more we know of
      particular thing's, the more we know about God' For this is,
      as we have seen was the essential technique of liberation:
      to encourage the student to explore his false premises
      consistently-to the end."

      DAN: Blake went beyond simply saying 'explore false
      premises to the end.' He suggested that full present
      awareness of apparent particulars *is* infinity - infinity
      *is* the present particulars, and is the nonduality of
      "particulars, awareness, and ultimate Reality". We seek to
      avoid infinity moment by moment, in a sense to avoid being
      "torn apart" by That which is limitless (i.e., the self of
      the fixed status quo, which we've worked so hard to
      construct, wants to avoid this). The status quo self may
      try to keep itself going, after a "glimpse of no-thingness",
      by substituting its (more familiar and comfortable, perhaps)
      concepts about infinity (or about how gurus use deception to
      trick others into "attaining" liberation), rather than have
      the direct nonconceptual opening of our own infinity
      occurring infinitely (which it is). Thus, the attempt to
      claim an accurate "languaging" of infinity, or "ownership"
      of techniques that allow "attainment" of infinity, bring
      infinity into the sphere of status quo self, the realm of
      language and skills.
      Nothing wrong with this - it's natural enough. The
      construction that is self tries to subdue infinity,
      increasingly learns this can't be done, increasingly finds
      its concepts and explanations inadequate - thus increasingly
      opens right here and now (and you showed that this "event"
      can be inferred from Blake's statements). The self learns
      that it can't "language" infinity, it is infinity's
      "speaking" that has constructed the self and all its
      languages (also, body, world, universe).



      I think love is not immediately available on demand to
      everyone, but it may be willed, or (I prefer the term)
      practiced. By noticing states of love and really feeling
      them, one gets an image of them, and when one is confronted
      with non-love states, one can replace them with the
      remembered love state. This takes a lot of practice, so
      don't get me wrong that being loving in all situations is as
      easy as memorizing what love feels like, but I believe that
      I am loving more often than I used to be because I desire to
      so be and because I practice whenever I remember to.
      Remembering to is also an art which yields to practice. Of
      course, practice makes perfect, but it takes an infinite
      amount of it. I don't know too much anymore about traps.
      Everything is an opportunity to choose between love and
      fear, and love is the better choice.


      DRAWER (contributed by Pieter Schoonheim Samara -- don't you
      love typing that name? It sounds like a mantra.)

      The Metaphysician:
      An Interview with Deepak Chopra

      Amazon.com: What was your religious upbringing in India?

      Deepak Chopra: I was brought up with a smattering of
      Hinduism and Buddhism and a lot of Catholicism because I
      went to a Catholic school that was run by Irish Christians.

      Amazon.com: Irish Catholics, really? What led you into
      Ayurveda medicine and the Eastern influences in your
      spiritual teachings?

      Chopra: I had been studying comparative religions ever since
      I was a teenager. In fact, I went to medical school for
      spiritual reasons, trying to figure out the nature of human
      existence by looking at human bodies. I carried the
      questions that we all have. Do we have a soul? What
      happens after we die? Does God exist? Is there meaning or
      purpose? Is it random?

      After medical school I started getting involved in Ayurveda
      and exploring Vedanta (a philosophical system central to
      Hinduism). Suddenly all the things I'd heard from my mother
      and grandmother and from various other people who used to
      come to our house--swamis and gurus--came back to me. It
      basically became clear to me that I did understand Vedanta
      and that I could put it in a contemporary framework.

      Amazon.com: In "How to Know God," you speak of the seven
      stages, or the seven ways, that humans interpret God. Can
      you explain these stages?

      Chopra: The seven stages are found in every spiritual
      tradition. Let's just take biblical examples for the
      moment, since they're the most familiar. Stage one is an
      image of a punishing God who behaves like Jehovah when he's
      upset. He destroys Sodom and Gomorrah; he banishes Adam and
      Eve from the Garden of Eden; he sends the plague; he kills
      every newborn child in Egypt because they are anti-Semitic.
      This God is the fight or flight stage, and that is because
      the people who projected this kind of God were themselves in
      the fight/flight response.

      Amazon.com: And isn't this also the stage when people think
      of God as a mighty protector?

      Chopra: They look at God to be a protector, but they're also
      afraid of God. Much like a child looking at his parent who
      he doesn't understand. The parent punishes them when
      they're doing things wrong, and sometimes they feel unjustly

      The second stage, called the reactive stage, is a God who is
      the maker of rules. He's the cosmic policeman. And we find
      him in the Ten Commandments. We find him in the Book of
      Leviticus. We find him in the laws of Manu in the East. We
      find him in all religions. He's the reactive response.

      Stage three is a God of peace. Of course we have him in
      Butar and Lao Tzu, but we also have him in
      Judeo-Christianity with Jesus Christ--and in many of the
      psalms, such as "Be still and know that I am God." Stage
      three is the restful awareness response.

      Amazon.com: And stage four is the intuitive response, which
      seems to be a popular interpretation of God within the New
      Age movement.

      Chopra: Yes, but you also find it in the Gospel of John:
      seek and you shall find; ask and you shall know; knock and
      it shall be opened to you. Stage four is discovering not
      only that you have the still presence of the soul inside
      you, but that you can ask it a question and the answer
      exists. Because your soul, which is a confluence of
      meanings and relationships, has an intuitive intelligence
      that is relational; that is nourishing; that is wise; that
      does not have a win/lose orientation; that has a computing
      ability that's far beyond anything that exists in the realm
      of rational thought. Once we begin to understand that, we
      begin to understand ourselves. Then we project God as the
      redeemer, because He or She understands us.

      Then we have stage five, the creative response. The Book of
      Genesis is the most beautiful expression of the creative
      response. God said, Let there be light. There was light.
      The Gospel of John: First there was the word and the word
      was made into flesh. Not only do you have art, invention,
      and discovery, but you also have whole creativity with the
      divine mind in that you create and orchestrate the incidents
      of your life.

      Stage six is the visionary response. The whole New
      Testament is the visionary response. It's the God of
      miracles, 35 miracles, and everything Jesus Christ describes
      and talks about is the visionary response. When I begin to
      accept how accessible miracles and visions are, my identity
      of myself shifts from being a skin-encapsulated ego into an
      inter-being, and ultimately into an archetypal being.

      The seventh response is the sacred response. That's when I
      just slip over the event horizon and I'm one with the
      source. And by the way, in Judeo-Christianity, God says to
      Moses, I am that I am. Jesus says, Before Abraham was, I
      am. So you know, you have all the seven responses right

      Amazon.com: Do you feel like you dwell mostly in that last

      Chopra: I have glimpses of it. [laughs]

      Amazon.com: Where, then, do you tend to dwell?

      Chopra: I certainly see myself in the fourth stage where I
      can remain centered in the midst of chaos and confusion and
      I feel the presence of my soul and spirit all the time. I'm
      aware of the sacred presence in others and myself. And
      sometimes I get totally drawn into the fray--and that's all
      right. You have to be natural.

      Amazon.com: You speak of these as stages. Do you see this
      as a journey to God that begins with stage one and ends with
      stage seven?

      Chopra: Yes, it is a journey. Although, depending on
      different situations, we react from different levels.
      Somebody suddenly robs me in the middle of the night, I
      might go into the fight/flight response. Each stage
      transcends the previous stage but also includes it. You
      transcend it, but you still use it except selectively.

      Amazon.com: So how would you apply this information to
      everyday life?

      Chopra: This might come as a shock to people, but I now have
      an interactive Web site: Howtoknowgod.com. Say you're a
      mother and you open the dresser drawer of your 14-year-old
      daughter and find a diaphragm there. And you don't know how
      to handle the situation.

      Amazon.com: Oh, you are in stage four, the intuitive
      response. I happen to have a daughter that age!

      Chopra: Okay, so now you can go to howtoknowgod.com; what it
      does is help to quiet your mind. It will help you elicit
      the intuitive, creative, restful, and visionary responses.
      And then it helps you decide what is the most appropriate
      response in the situation at this moment. Because it may
      not be the visionary response. It may be the reactive
      response, it may be the intuitive response. Any response
      could be appropriate depending on the circumstance or the
      situation in that moment.

      Amazon.com: So there's no surefire prescription?

      Chopra: You've got to find the God solution that pertains to
      the situation, circumstances, and karmic relationships of
      your life, whether it be relationship problems or parenting
      anxieties. We're going to explore this on the Web site so
      that people begin to make practical use of the understanding
      of these responses.

      Amazon.com: Yet it seems like our spiritual task is to
      always rise above situations, calling upon our higher
      selves, or in this case a higher stage, to find the best

      Chopra: Yes, Einstein once said that you can never solve a
      problem at the level at which it was created. You have to
      go to at least one level beyond.

      Featured in this e-mail:

      "How to Know God: The Soul's Journey into the Mystery of
      Mysteries" by Deepak Chopra

      To find out more about Deepak Chopra's groundbreaking new
      book, visit his Web site at http://www.howtoknowgod.com

      I occasionally receive questions from the list members on
      the interplay of Kundalini Shakit and psychosis or even
      losing one's mind. There is much that can be said about it
      and Dr. Sannella wrote a book on the topic in the 1970s. I
      am not a doctor or psychologist. Based on long term
      experiential knowledge, my practical understanding is that
      Shakti is the massive force of the unconscious, conscious,
      and the superconscious. She is both the Terror and the
      Beauty that manifests from Consciousness as the Energy of
      Consciousness but not seprate from it. It is She who
      ascends to Sahasarara (brain center) and in final stages
      descends and merges the mind into the Heart and Reveals Her
      Self as Pure Consciousness.

      In many people, the Shakti becomes active unexpectedly under
      certain circumstances. Unless, one has been in the field
      for sometime, what is happening cannot be grasped at all,
      even by doctors and psychologists. Abnormal awakenings when
      not correctly understood can indeed be perceived as mental
      illnesses of various types. However, people who are able to
      somehow come out of these have the potential to develop into
      the most beautifully creative flowers of this garden we call
      the universe.

      The following link will bring you to the page that has a
      link to an old paper I wrote on Kundalini Shakti and it also
      has several poems on the Goddess as well. Thanks and



      Is anything really "off-topic" here? Why does "nonduality"
      have to be protected in a safe place, so as not to be
      confused with computer problems? Or sex problems? Or other
      personal problems? Nonduality is in how we deal with these
      problems, not in avoidance.

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