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Nondual Digest: June 25

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    Hi! This selection of posts from June 25 edition of Nonduality Salon is lengthy and rich. It starts off with a few links. And this Digest includes a guest post
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 26, 1999
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      Hi! This selection of posts from June 25 edition of Nonduality Salon is
      lengthy and rich. It starts off with a few links. And this Digest
      includes a guest post from the Donmeh list, introduced by Melody.

      An easy way to get in touch with both Melody and me is to send mail to
      nondualdigest-owner@onelist.com. And remember, we each get a copy of
      your letter.

      I'm sending a copy of this Digest to the Nonduality Salon and to
      HarshaSatsangh list as well. To subscribe to this Nondual Digest, please
      go to

      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualdigest>

      To subscribe to HarshaSatsangh, please go to

      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/harshasatsangh>

      To subscribe to Nonduality Salon please go to

      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon>

      Thanks,

      Jerry
      ************************************************************************


      I know it's a band-aid, but
      it's certainly harmless and
      won't cost you dime one.

      <http://www.thehungersite.com>

      From all appearances it's
      entirely legitimate and
      tithes those who can best
      afford it.

      ---Bruce
      _____________________________________________________________________


      The Nonduality website may now be accessed through the following URL:

      <http://www.nonduality.com>

      ______________________________________________________________________


      Just in case any of you have tried to pull up my Aphorisms, if your
      browser did not show the title as a link, the URL is:

      <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/4216/humnat.html>

      OM shantih,

      Bob B.

      ________________________________________________________________________


      Photos of some of the people you have come to know here, are at the
      following web page:
      <http://www.nonduality.com/saloners.htm>

      _______________________________________________________________________


      ...reminds me of a conversation I read about between the
      Dalhai Lama and a monk who had been in Tibet all these years.
      The monk mentioned that he had experienced 'dangers.'
      The D.L. asked what dangers he meant. The monk said, "The danger of
      losing compassion for the Chinese."

      Xan

      _______________________________________________________________________


      From: Xan

      ----Papaji
      from Wake up and Roar

      Question: "When I am concentrated on no-thought the ego
      is not there, but when I return to thought the latent ego
      returns."

      Papaji: "In this particular case, when you entered into this thoughtless
      state (from ego to egoless state) you made an effort. To arrive into
      egolessness, to Self, to light, you have fastened yourself with a rope,
      with the ego, by making an effort. This rope, the ego, will pull you
      back. Now don�t tie. No effort and no rope. Then enter into this
      effortlessness. It is already there! There is no entrance and no exit
      either!

      Exist and entrance are the past and the future. So I say, break the link
      with this past and future. And how will you come out? Everything is
      truth. Who will call you back?

      There is no ego. Ego has been dumped on you by someone else. Your
      parent, society and the church. That�s all. There is no ego.
      Egolessness, freedom is your birthright. It is your inheritance of
      happiness. This is why you seek it. Everything that you do, you do for
      happiness, peace, and love."


      ______________________________________________________________________


      from Marcia:

      People who have gone ahead on the road within can lend
      me a compass and a road map. Granted the map is not the
      territory but it doesn't hurt does it? I have to travel the road
      myself. No one can do that for me.

      Five days......

      The first day I went down the road and fell in a pothole
      and couldn't get out. A friend came along and helped
      me out.

      The second day I went down the road and fell in a pothole
      and thrashed around and remembered to call for help.

      The third day I went down the road and fell in the pothole
      and thrashed around and remembered how to get out
      by myself.

      The fourth day I went down the road and saw the pothole
      ahead of time and avoided falling in it.

      The fifth day I took a different road altogether.

      ______________________________________________________________________


      Forget the roads. Stay Home. Home is where the Heart is.

      ---Harsha

      _______________________________________________________________________


      Well if it doesn't make any difference to you, then it doesn't.
      But what I am saying is that hopefully sometime something will make
      a difference to you and you will decide to do something about it. And
      until such time, it is all just intellectual. As Da has put it, sooner
      or later your life and the teaching coincide. It becomes more than just
      a hobby. It's knowing that you have really come to the end of your ropes
      and you have no alternatives. As long as you can get up and walk around
      the room, you will do it. Some day it will become important enough to
      you that walking around the room is out of the question. So until such
      time, keep walking around the room doing whatever it is that you are
      doing.

      Judi

      _______________________________________________________________________



      The major part of expectations is implicit; one isn't aware of their
      existence. When waking up the next day in an igloo at the North pole
      instead of in your bed, you 'll know what that means. The "default"
      expectation is for "life as usual" to continue. When confronted with
      discontinuity, disappointment or grief follows. Living "now" means to be
      aware, as opposed to "life as usual". Habit mind is tricky...

      Be aware,

      Jan

      ___________________________________________________________________


      Indeed, the numerous perceptions here
      at NDS, and perhaps metaphysical and
      religious thought generally, may
      reduce to:

      1.) Neti-neti, the reductionists, having
      logical conclusion in nihilism.

      2.) "Yeti-yeti" <g>, the inclusionists, having
      logical conclusion in radical pantheism.

      and,

      3.) The abiders; towards harmonious balance
      of all perception.

      JL

      ____________________________________________________________________


      Marcia:

      My friend has a t shirt. On one side it says:

      All of the Above

      and on the other side it says:

      None of the Above


      Sam:

      The thing I like about the inclusive rather than
      the exclusive is... it makes it much harder to
      step on 'an ant', kill 'a spider' or eat 'a cow',
      not to mention how much harder it makes it
      to harm 'another'... 'human being'.


      ______________________________________________________________________


      If we need to be practicing something, I'm in a world of shit. :-)

      Judi

      _______________________________________________________________________


      Truth is ...

      You can 'know' your own partial aspect of Truth ..

      Truth is fluid, continuous, everchanging ...

      The moment you put words around fluid Truth you impose a boundary, a
      separation of Truth from itself
      ... and so you have thought ...

      Thought is not Truth ... for every thought there is opposite thought ...
      for all knowledge there is a lack of knowledge ...

      Learning is the aquisition of thought ...

      The thought process is scientifically measureable

      Truth is not measureable ... because the measurement process involves
      the projection of thought which will influence that being measured ...

      Study will bias thought with the interpretative filters of the student
      ... words will create perceptual barriers according to the learned
      meanings of the words ... the word is the expression of Thought...

      Truth is ...

      Man created God ... from thought ...

      If you had the thought ... does the thought have you ...?

      The Truth always is, was, and shall be for ever more ... constant yet
      changing ...

      The door that needs a key is an illusion ...

      From one came two, from two came three, from three came ten thousand
      other things ... (Tao)

      ---Christopher

      ______________________________________________________________________


      Like a finger pointing to the moon,
      concepts of God-Realization may
      indeed be helpful, until one is ready
      to drop away all conceptualizing.

      I'm beginning to realize the essence
      of the Judeo-Christian *concept* of
      God-Realization, and the extent it
      speaks to me.

      To me, the J-C concept (and perhaps
      even Gnostic?) is that there is a seed
      of God implanted within each of us.
      (Tho 'details' of how this happens
      varies...)

      It is then the 'work' of a spiritual
      aspirant to find that seed (or spark)of God
      within, to nurture it and focus upon it such,
      that it grows and expands beyond our 'imaginings',
      and until we surrender life as we know it, to
      that Presence radiating 'thru us'...which we
      recognize to be greater than us, individually.

      And for those who dare to go further, there
      is the recognition that the Presence simply IS,
      as identification with self falls away.

      Allowing myself to simply 'sink into' this
      conceptualization, which resonates so well
      inwardly, I have been delighting in reading
      many of Yakov Leibs postings of the Donmeh
      concerning God Realization. (Many of which I
      never bothered then to read, but simply filed
      away. <s>)

      Now as I read them, I read them much like one
      who is reading a great novel....sitting on the
      edge of my seat waiting for the next chapter
      to begin. :-)

      Currently on the Donmeh list, he is beginning another
      series called, "Impediments to Knowing God."

      As a background, he sent this reposting of an
      earlier offering. I found it rather fascinating,
      which parallels my own experience thus far:

      ---Melody
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: Yakov.Leib.haKohain
      Subject: [DONMEH] Opening the Window to the Tree of Life

      Dear Chaverim,

      There is a window between the Psyche and the Ego that is shut:

      THE FIRST REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego does not
      know that it is there. This is the condition of MALKHUT, the 10th
      Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE SECOND REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego, even
      knowing that it is there, does not wish to open it. This is the
      condition of YESOD, the 9th Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE THIRD REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego, knowing it
      is there and wishing to open it, does not know how to do so. This is the
      condition of HOD, the 8th Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE FOURTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, and knowing how -- is too large to pass
      through to the other side. This is the condition of NETZACH, the 7th
      Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE FIFTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, and being small enough to
      pass through to the other side -- is too weak to withstand the forces it
      will encounter there. This is the condition of TIFERET, the 6th Sefirah
      of the Tree of Life.

      THE SIXTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass
      through, and having the strength to withstand the forces it will
      encounter on the other side -- does not know where to turn when gets
      there. This is the condition of GEBURAH, the 5th Sefirah of the Tree of
      Life.

      THE SEVENTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass
      through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter
      on the other side, and knowing where to turn when it gets there -- has
      not informed the Others of its arrival. This is the condition of CHESED,
      the 4th Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE EIGHTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass
      through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter
      on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, and having
      informed the Others of its arrival -- doubts that it is really there.
      This is the condition of BINAH, the 3rd Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE NINTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass
      through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter
      on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, having
      informed the Others of its arrival, and having no doubts that it is
      there -- hesitates to come before the Throne of Glory. This is the
      condition of CHOKMAH, the 2nd Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      THE TENTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing
      it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass
      through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter
      on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, having
      informed the Others of its arrival, having no doubts that it is there,
      and coming before the Throne of Glory -- has not yet been called by the
      Holy King, blessed be He. This is the condition of KETER, the 1st
      Sefirah of the Tree of Life.

      Omain v'Omain,

      Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D.


      ____________________________________________________________________


      To cross a wide, flowing river an ant had
      climbed onto the back of a water buffalo.
      Half-way across the ant thought, "I don't like
      having to be dependent." So he jumped off
      into the swiftly moving water.

      Non-dual theorists may tell you there is no river to cross,
      but I am a pragmatist, not a theorist. I will do whatever
      works to transform my awareness back to its natural
      original condition.

      The question is, what do you want? If you want to
      awaken to the wholeness of yourself you will welcome
      whatever comes to you for that. If you want to main-
      tain an identity that you are dependent or independent,
      then that is the loop in which you will remain.

      If you're not sure which of the people, practices, etc.
      showing up for you now will take you there, stop trying
      to figure it out and rest in your heart. The songs all say it,
      your heart does lead rightly.

      Xan


      ________________________________________________________________________


      This is how I see it: Nonduality doesn't exist. It's just a way of
      accepting that there is something rather than nothing. It's an "as-if" -
      the highest ethic. When I finally come to terms w/the fact that there's
      a 'me' out there, & people & things, & women to dance with - when
      I surrender, Nonduality happily gives way for the most unnoticed
      creature & the most meaningless event that comes my way.

      ---Toon



      Thank you for saying this Toon. I smiled and felt happy when I read it.
      I GUESS - it may depend on whether one is coming to or going from
      nonduality...and once you can give up everything else for
      nonduality..you may then easily give up the "official nonduality
      position" for anything that comes along.... I have no idea if this
      is close to what you meant, but my mind started humming along to the
      tune of "I got plenty of nothing ..and nothing's plenty for me.." It's a
      catchy tune and I like it, tho perhaps totally meaningless. It certainly
      requires nor expects any particular response.

      ---Glo

      _______________________________________________________________________


      Neti-neti has to be pursued until no further reduction is possible. This
      means even a name like Self differs from the "real", because Self can
      only make sense if there is a no-self. If a name has to be used, the
      "Unnamable" is as close as one can get; I remember it from some Gnostic
      writings.

      From another perspective, excluding all could be an effort to paint a
      picture of nirvikalpa samadhi whereas including all could be the effort
      to paint a picture of sahaja samadhi. Yet these pictures are wrong,
      because in nirvikalpa samadhi there isn't any thought and in sahaja
      samadhi the thought of "I" won't arise; "I" is only used due to the
      constraints of language. The point is, even if the pictures are "right"
      from the perspective of "realizers", they can induce false concepts,
      raise expectations etc.

      Another way to convey this is that if everything is included, the
      consequence must be that "everything included" has lost its meaning so
      "inclusion" no longer exists. There is no longer a possibility to
      verify; this possibility now is included as well. Likewise, when
      everything is excluded, the possibility to verify this is excluded so
      exclusion doesn't exist. Again, this shows both the danger and the
      relative uselessness of descriptions.

      ---Jan
      ______________________________________________________________________

      The following exchanged is repeated from yesterday, and expanded upon by
      Dan...

      It was stated:

      ...objective reality is demonstratable from the perspective of
      relationship. For example, if you gather together a thousand people, and
      they all observe a tree and agree that the tree is there, it can be
      surmised that at the very least SOMETHING is there. In fact, that is
      how human beings come by their idea of objective reality -- through
      relationship with others. Without that relationship, all would be
      subjective.


      Andrew responded:

      This is not objectivity, it's inter-subjectivity, and there are
      fundamental assumptions underlying it. -Reality is assumed to present
      itself to the individual such that the individual and the observed
      object are distinct and separate. However, the experience of many is
      that on deeper examination this subject object distinction fades away.
      -It is also assumed that underlying this apparent reality, there is a
      purely abstract rational construct, which is then called 'reality' and
      what is perceived is called 'appearance', then if many individuals agree
      about appearance it is assumed to reflect reality.

      Also there is group pressure, we learn to see things as others see them,
      and anyone who does not is considered crazy or lost in fantasy or
      hopelessly romantic and ignored. There is no logical basis for saying
      that because all agree on a thing it is any less subjective than if only
      one perceives it.


      Dan responds:

      When doing research from an intersubjective perspective, it is
      considered very useful to gather data from diverse perspectives of a
      situation. This kind of "objectivity" is called "triangulation,"
      probably because the process is similar to taking measurements from
      three perspectives to determine a position. The goal of this
      triangulation isn't to try to say what is "really there," but to form a
      more comprehensive picture of the multiple realities inherent in a
      situation. The researcher or researchers then integrate these data into
      a hopefully useful research perspective.

      Thus, intersubjectivity does have its own kind of "objectivity."
      Subjectivity and objectivity arise in relation to each other. Consensus
      plays a part in "reality formation," as does the purely individual
      subjectivity and its "reality formation." If there were no consensus
      about Ramana Maharshi, none of his views would have been transmitted and
      no one would be discussing him. For me, relationship is indeed an
      important aspect of reality formation, and Relationship and One are
      not-two. I don't take any of these relationally formed realities as
      ultimate "Reality," to me collective or individual, and objective or
      subjective - reality perceptions are always "the past." Yet, without
      the past, we would not be having this discussion, so "the past" has its
      uses, just as illusion expresses creativity of One.

      ************************************************************************

      There is only one day!
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