Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Hightlights from the NDS for Saturday, March 4

Expand Messages
  • Melody
    Here s some of Saturday s highlights: -=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--*=--=*=--=*=--=*=--*=- Offered by JOHN: The man in whom Tao Acts without impediment
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 5, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Here's some of Saturday's highlights:


      Offered by JOHN:

      The man in whom Tao
      Acts without impediment
      Does not bother with his own interests
      And does not despise
      Others who do.
      He does not struggle to make money
      And he does not make a virtue of poverty.
      He goes his way
      Without relying on others
      And does not pride himself
      On walking alone.
      While he does not follow the crowd
      He won't complain of those who do.
      Rank and reward
      Make no appeal to him;
      Disgrace and shame
      Do not deter him.
      He is not always looking
      For right and wrong
      Always deciding "Yes" or "No."

      Thomas Merton, The Way of Chuang Tzu

      to which DAN responds:

      Another beauty, John.

      Just a man with no title,
      walking down the road.

      Following no one,
      thus critical of none.

      No doubt of his way,
      not bothering about others' ways.

      With no thought of high and low,
      he didn't seek the wise nor avoid the ignorant.

      He seemed to know not much,
      so others took little notice.

      He was so unobtrusive,
      sometimes it was as if he were invisible.


      Here is a taste of the thread titled "The Search/Addiction".
      To read the full discussion, go to

      Dave "Manchine" responding to Greg and Roger:

      Greg: Yes, this is the pre-quantum physics view of scientific realism.
      According to it, the world really exists, and really causes our ideas of it. In
      short, perhaps inaccurately so, this view says that mind activity is the
      result of brain activity, which is the result of biological and physical
      processes. This view itself is being abandoned by scientists these days,
      partly because of results of quantum mechanics. Scientists are seeing
      that the process of observation itself actually affects the observed

      Quantum physics refers to the fact that measuring methods use probes
      albeit energy probes like light pulses or electromagnetic fields, which tend
      to effect the reaction of the observed phenomena therefore leading to
      uncertainty in the result.

      With the direct measurement procedure leading to uncertainty one can fall
      back onto direct observation of un-probed phenomena, but that to has its
      uncertainty. Also being unprobed there are many phenomena which are cloaked
      in their natural states.

      So "our quest" is more a quest of the second kind. Observation and deduction
      of naturally occuring phenomena. Untouched but with some core factors
      cloaked for lack of methods to probe further.

      Another thing that quantum physics is trying to do is remove "time" from the
      equations. This is being done to come closer to a Unified Theory, a general
      theory that explains everything, sort of like E=mc2 but more accurate.

      Roger: I'm interested in experiential reality: does one percieve that
      one's essence is limited to the body or coincident with the body? Who cares about
      scientific opinion: what is our perception? Most people will have
      to answer yes to this, even if they believe otherwise. The reality is that nearly
      everyone lives the illusion of being confined in a body.

      But, is this identification with the body the truth? If it's our
      perception we'd be foolish to deny it, but is it the final truth? We can discover the
      reality perceptually. Talking about it conceptually is not very interesting,
      I expect, compared to the perceptual reality.

      The problem we have is like you said, our sensors are limited. And so we
      have to extrapolate. All of the scientists do that, and it has been proven,
      at least in the physical realm to be absolutely valid.

      That's what we do in trying to get further in to what's "really" going on.
      In doing so we get to places many of us, as was the case with freeheart and
      with myself where our logic shows us that there are incongruencies.
      Freeheart came to an incongruency with his perception of God, I with an
      incongruency in the reality of infinity. What happens is a unified theory
      enters that explains everything.

      Christiana offered a review of a new book related to the topic Dave mentioned
      as well as to the nondual awareness that 'life is just a dream' through space
      The End of Time: The Next Revolution in Physics by Julian B. Barbour see review at

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-

      I was looking thru my books trying to find something on "emptiness" in
      the sense of meaning "not inherently existing" and I found this. To my
      surprise it actually made sense. What a relief!

      This is the opening paragraph to Session 10 of the Dalai Lama's
      commentary to the auto-commentary of the First Panchen Lama's "A Root
      Text For The Precious Gelug/Kagyu Tradition Of Mahamudra: The Main Road
      Of The Triumphant Ones" from the book "The Gelug/Kagyu Tradition Of


      Once we have gained conviction in the lack of true and inherent identity
      on the basis of our own "self," we turn to the basis of other persons or
      individuals and then to the massive collection of all other phenomena.
      We examine voidness itself and all pure and impure phenomena. When we
      investigate and search, we cannot find any of them. None of them can be
      established as a true and inherent reality. Everything is simply what
      can be dependently labeled. We need to know this well. When we see this
      devoid nature with respect to all phenomena, from forms of physical
      phenomena up to an omniscient mind - namely, this total lack of anything
      being established as a true and inherent reality - then as it says in a
      sutra, "This not finding is the supreme finding. This not seeing is the
      best seeing."
      L: This chapter is not only a clear exposition of emptiness itself but
      also of the emptiness of mind/awareness/consciousness, the nonduality
      thing. It acknowledges "mind's uncontrived or primordial nature" which
      "cannot be extinguished like the dousing of a flame, but is an awareness
      and clarity that has continuity with no beginning or end." Then it goes
      on to show that "Mind is something that is labeled by relying on its
      numerous factors and parts. But when our mind gives rise to an
      appearance of mind, it appears as if it were something existing through
      its own power, by virtue of itself, not dependent on anything other than
      itself, not needing to rely on any circumstances or conditions in order
      to establish its existence. The apprehension of it as existing in the
      manner in which mind fabricates an appearance of it is the apprehension
      of true and inherent existence focused on mind. The implied object of
      this apprehension of true and inherent existence - a mind that is
      actually established as existing as some true and solid reality - is
      what must be refuted and nullified." In other words, not only is samsara
      not inherently existing, but nirvana also is not inherently existing.
      This makes sense to me, but I need a better understanding of what
      "inherent" means. Any clues, pointers, directions or links?

      More from Larry:

      Revisiting the debate over who is enlightened and who can recognize an
      enlightened one, it occured to me that if we can only know our own
      "level" or below, then as far as I am concerned everyone is enlightened
      because I don't _know_ anyone. So please teach me oh e-muni. I have a
      thirst for knowledge. Don't hide or pretend. Sing your song. Fill me
      with your sound.

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
      From: Michael

      Before enlightenment comes awareness.
      To become aware seek your awakening.
      Once awakened you will stop seeking.

      You may continue your education - enlightenment.

      Dave responded:
      Not in my humble experience.

      Michael continues

      So what the heck is awakening? What does it mean to be awake? Who is
      it that is/becomes awake? The answer is very simple and most difficult
      to accept or understand. Why this is so has become the subject of
      many volumes of conjecture and scripture! But who cares about that?

      In December of 1999 I was overwhelmed with the need to KNOW something
      about buddha. I spent a week of intense study on buddha and buddhism.
      Most of the so-called scripture seemed empty to me. It not only made
      little sense, it also seemed wrong, incorrect and misleading. Only
      the words of Gautama seemed to hold any meaning.

      As I studied and thought and thought and studied I began to
      experience a twofold energy. This was the energy of expanding and
      contracting at the same time! :-) These words of buddha were the
      focal point for me. "There is nothing to realize. There is no
      enlightenment! There is nothing to do. Marvelous marvelous!" There
      are two responses of buddha to the question of his identity that also
      had a profound impact on me. They were "I am That" and "I am
      Nothing". What a Contradiction! It is like Meher Baba's - I am
      Everything and I am Nothing. I was also aware of the words of jesus -
      "rejoice, the kingdom of heaven is within!"

      So there I was contracting into the question of who am i and
      expanding into the answer of I AM! What a surprise it was. What a
      revealation (sp) too! That I Michael Alois Read am a buddha! That the
      conciousness looking out of these eyes is the same that looked out of
      jesus's eyes. buddha's eyes, hitler's (yes even bad people are one)
      eyes - all six billion plus humans share the one and the same

      At the moment I awakened the funniest thing occurred. I was pissed
      off! I just had to LOL! It was too too simple! To be alive is to be
      god in the flesh. To be alive is to be buddha. To be alive is
      marvelous marvelous! I can see the I AM in all of us. What a blessing.

      So, now I continue my education - my enlightenment.

      As far I can tell, there are no levels. To speak of levels is to
      speak of ignorance. It is very difficult to recognize an enlightened
      one. It is very easy to recognize an elightened one. Don't spend too
      much time worrying about it. You are already there. :-)

      Do that which is beneficial and compasssionate.

      One last thing: I found this out on the net after doing a search on

      Question: What is buddha? Answer: this mind is buddha.
      Commentary: Those who understand this shold be careful least they
      commit the sin of formality. Those who understand this will cover
      thier ears and run away after hearing 'this mind is buddha'! Those
      who understand this will wash out their mouths for three days after
      saying the word buddha!

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-


      I may be just connecting things that don't connect but
      I was thinking about the core wound and how it might
      mold our thoughts. No matter what was coming in or
      going out would be molded by these forms. In the
      Gurdjieff work it is called chief feature. The central
      axis around which our personality rotates. Like is sieve
      with holes structured a certain way.


      Yes, the ongoing impact of core wound/chief feature.
      I've also heard it called the core belief and the personal law.
      Does that exist without thought?
      Is there belief without thought?

      This is how I look at it. Thought is structured by words or has
      it's basis in language. At least ordinary or one-centered thought.
      Our beliefs we got before language and they form our thoughts.
      Or are the forms through which the energy of our existence take
      form in thoughts. Our beliefs are unexamined. Thoughts we introspect
      all the time.



      So you are saying, Marcia, that belief is thought at an
      unconscious level of mind?

      Unconscious as well as conscious mind functions as
      sounds and words, images and body sensations.
      Even as pre-verbal memory, a sense of worthlessness
      is an evaluation, an interpretation, an identity. These
      are thoughts, are they not?

      I have discovered that the information which remains with us,
      as the result of wounding (most especially when we are children) is
      indeed in the forms that Xan and Marcia point out; sounds, words,
      images, and body sensations. However (and this is a big however!),
      this residual information of wound, is stored in a _compressed

      Non-wound information is stored in uncompressed format; we have the
      ability to easily access and endlessly ruminate this non-compressed
      information. Most of what is shared here, is in non-compressed format.

      It is useful to know something about data-compression; the easiest
      examples to know, are the common data-compression formats used to
      convert large files into smaller files, for transmission over
      electronic networks, like the internet.

      Filenames which have the suffix of [.zip, .tar] for PCs, or [.sit,
      .bin, .hqx] for Mac, indicate that such files are compressed; they
      have been rendered into smaller size by the rearranging of certain
      bits of data. Such files can be uploaded/downloaded much faster than
      their uncompressed versions. Each file must be uncompressed before it
      can be used; but sometimes, such files are made simply for the reason
      that they take up less disk space than their uncompressed versions.


      Psyche reacts by stuffing (archiving) information which threatens identity.

      The chief characteristic of these stuffed archives of wound-data, is
      that *although* they are available for our access, they 'play back'
      at such a tremendous speed, that they are literally incomprehensible
      to the conscious mind. As they play back in us (usually experienced
      as an undesired event in itself), the speed of the playback induces a
      physical vertigo; this is often experienced as a 'veritable blow' to


      Exposure to this instant/incomprehensible information _again_
      threatens identity; shockingly instantaneous feelings of
      _depersonalization_ occur, along with a cascade of emotions and the
      concurrent physiological flooding of the brain with the neurohormonal
      byproducts of psychological association.

      During high-speed playback, compressed data-files deposit or inject
      certain _subliminal_ cues; these cues prompt emotional reaction of
      _desire_ and _aversion_. Although the specifics of the information of
      wound are still unseen, the consequence of triggering the instant yet
      incomprehensible playback of this compressed data, may be experienced
      as _violence_.

      MARCIA adds:

      This is why being able to stay aware in my body is vital. I can feel
      the neurological changes and know that feeling inside out of having
      my buttons pushed and know that an old tape is being played again
      and again and again. It is stored in the body, laid down in the
      neurological systems.


      The skilled psychotherapist can actuate the 'algorithm of
      decompression', to allow the real-time playback of the information of
      wound. A human system which is capable of compressing and archiving
      information, is also capable of uncompressing that information.
      Uncompressed, the information of wound is available for real-time


      Yet, it remains unaccessible to the conscious mind. Searching the
      memory for significant points of attachment may trigger high-speed
      playback; the vertigo, the 'blow' to oneself, and the concurrent
      feelings of aversion and desire, serve as a punishing conditioning to
      keep us OUT of our own information-archives.

      Although the information of wound is indeed composed of the same
      comprehensible 'thought-forms' as any other datum of thought, it is
      'a lot in a small space'; it is kept compressed and in pressurized
      format. Consider that this entire post could be reduced to the size
      of a single period (.), but also that considerable energy would have
      to be continually expended to keep it compressed.


      The energy required to keep information hidden from ourselves, is
      subtracted form the pool of energy available for us. This effect is
      noticed as fatigue and diminished immunity; the other more obvious
      effect is that of being 'on-edge', irritable, and defensive.


      The unconscious activity of repression (compressing unwanted data)
      creates pressure which results in the spontaneous and automatic
      phenomenon of _projection_. In this way, we surround ourselves with a
      'virtual reality field' of our own making; it is composed of the very
      factors which we least want to confront. Fear, resentment and blame
      are the most common reactions to our own projections. It is very
      common for a person to see themselves as perpetually suffering the
      slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, while the entire time
      remaining unaware that they are interacting with a reality of their
      own making.


      It is possible to _learn_ to allow the uncompression of repressed
      information of wound; it is possible to adopt the practice of
      _abiding_ the storm of effects which occur during this decompression
      process. It is possible to learn to let go of the reactions of
      aversion and desire which inevitably are triggered during either
      high-speed or real-time playback of memory-contents; it is possible
      to categorize every reaction as either aversion or desire, and thus
      to become aware of _attachment_ as it exists as a primary mechanism
      of the human Being.

      'Attachment to outcome' is what underlies every strategy; to let go
      of attachment to outcome, allows the falling away of strategizing as
      a way of Being. Releasing strategy sets us up to free-fall into Self,
      with no 'escape route' or 'back door' retained 'just in case'. This
      _radical_ release of attachment is without penalty, yet, it is the
      most difficult of all acts to perform. To perform this act, requires
      practice of abiding, carried out as a 'walking meditation' 24 hours
      per day, 7 days per week. It is when we finally realize that our
      reality is our own, that we are able to own our reality; it is at
      this point, that resentment, blame, and revenge lose their powerful
      grip on our selves.


      There is only SELF; there is nothing to contrast with Self.
      Therefore, there is nothing for Self to be 'like'; thus, Self is
      'like nothing'.


      All versions of self are Self. Self has the power to forget about
      Self, and to remember Self. Identity is a defacto hypostasis, a
      crystalization of information, a hardness comprised of compressed
      nuggets of wound-information. Reaction is to projected contents of
      memory. All of what is known, is what has been known. All of what is
      known, is not Self, it is a version of Self known as identity. All of
      what can be known, is Self, but Self masquerades as the Unknown, and
      the future is the unknown; thus, we are "all going to meet ourselves"
      as Self 'in the future'. Anticipating this event, which is felt to to
      be release from suffering, we are impatient and thus do not abide.
      Nonabiding Beings do not abide Beings abiding...

      Summary: Compressed information of wound, informs, guides and shapes
      our world; the violent flashback-effect of high-speed playback of
      compressed data, calls for that data to be uncompressed and
      experienced in real-time. Avoidance of unwanted information is the
      primary strategy which supports the continuance of identity. To
      abide, is to slow the playback of compressed data, and to tolerate
      the effects of our own attachments as they are activated as either
      aversion or desire.


      Upon the dawning of the realization that we create our own reality,
      the fight comes to an end. Projections are withdrawn, and resentment
      is no longer used as fuel for action. We acquire a deep understanding
      of our own nature, and see that compassion is the highest power; we
      appreciate that we are designed in such a way as to punish ourselves
      for nonabiding, and that the key to abiding is compassion for oneself.


      Life is momentum and momentum is movement. As long as we live, we
      move. As long as we live, we will either be reacting to our
      unwanted/projected 'contents', or we will be in understanding of our
      human nature, and abiding it in all of its complexity and simplicity.
      Such abiding of oneself, is compassion for oneself. Compassion can
      inform the inevitable movement of life.


      Well said. Thank you. It is perfectly descriptive of the boucing back and
      forth I see myself go through. Being aware of the process doesn't always
      make it easier while you're in it.....but I think it does insure that each
      session with de-compression effectively sculps away some material.

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
      From HARSHA:

      It is my experience that spontaneous awakenings in certain circumstances can
      lead to much suffering. Over 25 years of observation has led me to believe
      that gentle, nonviolent and nonforcing methods of meditation and Shakti
      awakenings are suitable for most people. Although mild pranayama has its
      uses, without proper care and guidance, the advanced breathing exercises
      with retention can be problematic for some people and even dangerous as they
      directly impact the brain and the heart.

      I wrote extensively on this topic some years ago but have not emphasized
      that recently. Almost three years ago there were quite a few conversations
      on Kundalini and Pranayama that I engaged in on the k-list offering the
      lessons of practical experience. Over the next 3 months or so, I will add
      the essential content of those conversations to my existing paper on
      Kundalini which has been on the web for well over two years or so. The
      revised paper should be even more informative and useful for people
      interested in Kundalini Yoga, Tantra, and Pranayama in the context of

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
      JAN on acquiring wisdom

      Eric: You are a wise man: "So be sure that identification is a very tenacious one..."

      Thanks you: there is a saying that often, wisdom comes from
      the piles of dogshit one meets "on the path" and by
      contemplating the dogshit, it is converted for "general use".
      >From this perspective, the 8 major forms (comments within
      brackets) of wisdom are:

      1. Convincing you dogshit isn't smelly or slippery (belief
      2. Providing shovels to clean the path from dogshit (lots of
      3. Advising to stilt walk through it so one's shoes keep clean
      (lots of practice)
      4. Advising to keep a hungry pig that eats dogshit (but the
      pig will shit)
      5. Providing skis to slide through the shit effortless so the
      journey is sportive and fun (lots of practice too)
      6. Buying you a pair of binoculars so only the goal is seen
      and one won't notice the shit (do nothing)
      7. Giving a recipe to dry and process the shit so it can be
      sold as fuel to lighten the path (love the light of $hit)
      8. Advising to become a member of ASSHOLE (Associated Shit
      Sweeping Holy Ones Loving Enlightenment) (Holy Shit!)

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-

      ==Gene Poole== to JERRY on Objectified Space

      JERRY wrote (in part):

      of the specks dancing in a beam of sunlight,
      that if each represents a universe,
      the whole sunlight will represent the Supreme Being.

      When attention is profoundly brought to the Source, the
      whole sunlight is recognized. One may describe the
      Enlightened condition as recognition of Source even as
      attention moves from speck to speck.

      It is achieved through equanimity, the freeing of attention
      to its Source, and the persistence in the process of
      recognition of Source in all movements of attention until
      existence or the realm of infinite specks is fully outshined
      by Source, or until it all becomes Source.

      That's the game. Who doesn't want to play?

      p.s. Notice I left the issue of space out of the discussion,
      except at the very beginning when it was said that attention
      moves from speck to speck as though there were nothing in
      between. Because And, really, its only the
      speck of attention. When finally settling into that one
      speck, we can, via equanimity, resolve attention at its
      Source, as Da Free John would say, and recognize Source
      whenever we have spex.

      GENE replies:

      May I respectfully disagree with this statement: "... the moment
      space is mentioned, it becomes a
      speck. We can only talk of specks."

      I take your meaning, and do not disagree that we 'can talk only of specks'.

      Space is not stained by any meaning which we tend to put upon it;
      stainless space remains free of our meddlings and assumptions.

      Is it possible to know the 'suchness' of space?

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-


      People are as free as atoms are :-)


      And Space is Aware!


      Anything less than complete unpredictablity ultimately
      results in stagnation. We have a kind of molecular
      consciousness that percieves only what it finds significant
      even though we and our cellular structure is capable of
      handling quite different sequences of events from a massive
      framework of unbelievable gestalts awareness that are so
      interwoven that each particle (consciousness) is dependent
      on every other. Within this complete freedom of motion
      'ordered' motion is possible and . The energy of one
      recreates the whole, the strength of one strengthens the
      whole, the weakness of one weakens the whole, the striving
      of one increases the potentiality of everything that is.

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-

      LARRY asks:

      Does anyone know what the "knee" in "The Knee Of Listening" refers to?
      Does it have anything to do with why the Greek goddess rubs the god's
      knees before asking for a favor?

      ERIC (FREEHEART) responds:

      Bless you for your passion, Larry.
      I am on my Knees in full respect.

      I felt: Prayer,
      then: Prayer onto the Self,
      then: Original Sin.
      She touching Him, His Refusal.

      Repair of Original Condition
      has required long Prayer.
      Eric (Freeheart)

      -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-

      From: Kristie From ACIM:

      "The alertness of the ego to the errors of other egos is not the kind of
      vigilance the Holy Spirit (awareness; my substitution) would have you
      maintain. Egos are critical in terms of the kind of "sense" they stand for.
      They understand this kind of sense, because it is sensible to them. To the
      Holy Spirit it makes no sense at all.

      "To the ego it is kind and right and good to point out errors and "correct"
      them. This makes perfect sense to the ego, which is unaware of what errors
      are and what correction is. Errors are of the ego, and correction of errors
      lies in the relinquishment of the ego. When you correct a brother, you are
      telling him that he is wrong. He may be making no sense at the time, and it
      is certain that, if he is speaking from the ego, he will not be making
      sense. But your task is still tot ell him he is right. You do not tell him
      this verbally, if he is spekaing foolishly. He needs correction at another
      level, because his error is at another level. He is still right, because he
      is the Son of God. His ego is always wrong, no matter what it says or does.

      "If you pointout the errors of your brother's ego you must be seeing through
      yours, because the Holy Spirit does not perceive his errors. This must be
      true, since there is no communication between the ego and the Holy Spirit.
      The ego makes no sense, and the Holy Spirit does not attempt to understand
      anything that arises from it. Since He does not understand it, He does not
      judge it, knowing that nothing the ego makes means anything.

      "When you react at all to errors, you are not listening to the Holy Spirit.
      He has merely disregarded them, and if you attend to them you are not
      hearing Him. If you do not hear Him, you are listening to your ego and
      making as little sense as the brother whose errors you perceive. This canno
      be correction. Yet it is more than merely a lack of correction for him, It
      is the giving up of correction in yourself.

      "When a brother behaves insanely, you can heal him only by perceiving the
      sanity in him. If you perceive his errors and accept them, you are accepting
      yours. If you want to give yours over to the Holy Spirit, you must do this
      with his. Unless this becomes the one way in which you handle all erros, you
      cannot understand how errors are undong. How is this different from telling
      you that what you teach you learn? Your brother is as right as you are, and
      if you think he is wrong you are codemning yourself.

      "You cannot correct yourself. Is it possible, then, for you to correct
      another? Yet you can see him truly, because it is possible for you to see
      yourself truly. It is not up to you to change your brother, but merely to
      accept him as he is. His errors do not come from the truth that is in him,
      and only this truth is yours. His errors cannot change this, and can have no
      effect at all on the truth in you. To perceive errors in anyone, and to
      react to them as if they were real, is to make them real to you. You will
      not escape paying the price for this, not because you are being punished for
      it, but because you are following the wrong guide and will therefore lose
      your way."
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.