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HIGHLIGHTS for Thursday, March 2, 2000

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  • Old_Hag@webtv.net
    Hello all dears: Here are Highlights from Thursday, March 2, 2000. Trying a different organization, identifying discussion threads, hopefully to make following
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 3, 2000
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      Hello all dears:
      Here are Highlights from Thursday, March 2, 2000.

      Trying a different organization, identifying discussion threads,
      hopefully to make following the threads easier for you.

      Also, onelist now has the messages from NDS listed by thread (on the
      onelist site). So if anyone would like to read more of a thread, they
      can access NDS at onelist, and have a go. (Thought: If you are not a
      subscriber to NDS, you can become one as "Web Only - no mail" and still
      have access to the NDS messages on site.)
      ,^))

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Hans Presents a Reasonable Challenge:
      **New thread: Just Reasoning**

      Hans:
      Thought as reasoning = resistance.
      Do you have reason to resist this statement ? If you have, let's talk
      about it.
      Hope to hear from you

      Dan: I'm resisting reasoning with your thought. Does that mean my
      resistance is non-resistance?

      Sarlo (to Hans):
      I'd rather think about it.

      Dutch:
      Thinking is an instrument that can be used for reasoning, without
      resistance.
      For example, to solve an algebraic problem. I would put it the other way
      around: resistance = thought as reasoning All cows are animals, but not
      all animals are cows...

      Hans:
      I had to be more precise. I meant reasoning on a psychological level
      i.e. trying to solve existential *problems*. How i see it is that we try
      to solve them by going over the *problem* in our mind because we do not
      want to deal with it in *real* life i.e. thinking about dying is not the
      same as dying. so i start trying to deal with dying in my mind because i
      am afraid to deal with it in *real life*. i can even make myself believe
      that i have solved this probem and am not afraid anymore of dying, sort
      of dreaming that i am awake.
      I agree with you that you can resolve an algebraic problem through
      reasoning, without resistance, but on the other hand, if you do not like
      the outcome of this problem, there might be resistance to it :)

      Dutch:
      That's true Hans. Thinking is *not* the appropriate instrument to solve
      the existential problems.

      Thinking itself cannot 'see' anything. You can see thinking, but
      thinking can see nothing.

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      **Chi and Kundalini thread (continues) **

      Melody: If 'yi' is not logical thinking mind, is it 'unconscious' mind?
      I ask this because I have always considered the body as linked to the
      'unconscious' mind.

      andrew: Yi is founded in awareness, sensitivity and intuition, it's
      unconscious in that thinking mind isn't used, but it's not an
      unconscious reaction. It is strongly linked to the body, its strength
      increases as chi becomes concentrated, in martial arts practise its
      definition is learned empirically but it's difficult to define in words.

      Xan:
      Non-conceptual mind, is how I conceive of it.

      andrew: (continuing)
      After reading OH and Jan's posts I'm thinking Kundalini is the
      combination of chi and spirit(shen).

      Melody: When you use the word 'combination' I was reminded of Xan's
      offering the other day of the first two hexagrams of the I-Ching....with
      the first hexagram as The Creative, masculine, and the second hexagram
      as Receptive, feminine. (Xan said, in part:) I have seen there are
      three energy forces that comprise the universe - power, love, and their
      child, wisdom.

      Perhaps Kundalini is the "wisdom" child born of the union between yi
      (love) and shen (power) ?

      andrew:
      ������For the record, I have oversimplified things a little
      in this discussion. I left out 'ching' which is sexual force or
      regenerative energy, either male or female, often translated as sexual
      fluids, but really also the subtle energy that produces them, sexual
      energy or more broadly the force that gives form to things. Conservation
      of ching leads to stimulation of chi, the interaction of chi and ching
      is symbolically represented as 'fire and water', chi heats ching which
      in turn causes chi to become active.

      Xan:
      For the record, Ching can be directed. There are tantric and shamanic
      practices for its stimulation, accumulation and use for acts of power
      such as healing, etc.

      andrew (continuing;)
      Chi, ching and shen are referred to as the essences or 'three
      treasures'.
      Together they are considered to be the essential nature of a person.

      Xan:
      Once thought, feeling and sensation are given up as the central stage of
      life, the energies of which all life is comprised become more apparent.

      �����
      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      **Chi and K thread (spin-off)**

      Melody:
      Yesterday in reading the posts to the list I experienced them as a kind
      of deja vu .... recognizing the familiar pattern of responses and
      reactions, as if I was watching re-runs on TV. I experienced the 'drama'
      in my 3rd chakra. It felt like a churning round and round in my gut.
      More than once I began to respond....started to enter the fray as I have
      done time and time again. This time I held my responses. Watched my
      'silent' responses. I could tell that the energy in the 'gut' wanted to
      move after getting excited and 'in motion'.
      The picture I had in my mind's eye was of a funnel cloud... a
      vortex....of the 'round and round the mulberry bush'.

      I could see my choices. To 'project' this energy outward knowing it
      would no doubt do violence,
      or I could channel it 'upwards'
      or I could simply let it continue to churn where it was until it burned
      itself out.
      Mostly I let it sit. � I thought yesterday that
      I was channeling it upwards to do what you say above, but I didn't. (The
      'mind' just let me believe it did <s>)

      How does one consciously channel it 'upwards'...more effectively next
      time, or is this just 'mind' just wanting to be kept busy?

      Eric:
      Your Mind is wanting to keep busy.

      Channelling it would be to Own It, inside you, through you, alive in
      you. Where it goes is none of your business.
      This is your choice. There is no Melody telling Shakti where to go. Only
      a part of Shakti playing mind games with the Heart. Intention Melody? Oh
      My God!!!!!!!
      :-)

      Marsha (replying to Melody saying "Is this just mind trying to be
      busy?"):
      This is a good question. It is not 'mind' that wishes for that. As you
      'mind' your body then the wish will be born in the emotions. Think of it
      as the affirming force is the mind and the receptive force is the body
      and the child of this union is real feeling. Use your mind to pay
      attention to your body.

      ~~Editor's Note: This thread continued in a personal vien, and a number
      of posters contributed. i have decided not to include in the Highlights,
      but if you would like to read them, you can always check the "Messages"
      in the new format, under the Nonduality Salon list.

      Here are some posts near the end of this thread:
      Melody Brings in Her Buddy, Osho and Kristi Speaks in Parable:

      Osho:
      Innocence
      ~~~~~~~
      Zen says that if you drop knowledge--and within knowledge everything is
      included, your name, your identity, everything, because this has been
      given to you by others--if you drop all that has been given by others,
      you will have a totally different quality to your being--innocence. This
      will be a crucifixion of the persona, the personality, and there will be
      a resurrection of your innocence; you will become a child again, reborn.

      Osho, Dang Dang Doko Dang, Chapter 7

      Commentary:
      The old man in this card radiates a childlike delight in the world.
      There is a sense of grace surrounding him, as if he is at home with
      himself and with what life has brought. He seems to be having a playful
      communication with the praying mantis on his finger, as if the two of
      them are the greatest friends. The pink flowers cascading around him
      represent a time of letting go, relaxation and sweetness. They are a
      response to his presence, a reflection of his own qualities. The
      innocence that comes from a deep experience of life is childlike, but
      not childish. The innocence of children is beautiful, but ignorant. It
      will be replaced by mistrust and doubt as the child grows and learns
      that the world can be a dangerous and threatening place. But the
      innocence of a life lived fully has a quality of wisdom and acceptance
      of the ever-changing wonder of life.

      Kristie:
      There once was a great pianist. She played in elegant concert halls, for
      royalty and all manner of fine people. All who heard her play were
      transported, by the lovely tones of Lizst, or the passion of her
      Rachmaninoff, to other realms, a place where the spirit could soar free
      and the heart could pound without fear of anyone discovering the depths
      of soul that such self-possessed people could feel. All agreed that she
      was a great artiste, and wanted nothing so much as to
      share in her gift.

      There came a time in her life when she decided to share her great love.
      She thought to invite children to her piano and
      to teach them how to touch the souls of others, how to find their own
      passion.
      When they came she played for them. And she cried with the poignancy of
      baring her soul to such innocence, with the sheer pleasure of exposing
      such young minds to the genuis of Mozart. Then she asked them to the
      bench where they
      lifted their timid hands to the cool, solid ivory of the gleaming grand
      piano and plunked out the first forlorn notes of "Three Blind Mice."
      Inwardly the teacher grimaced at the baseness of the sounds that
      otherwise rose in such glory
      from her own practised hands. But she pasted on a smile and patiently
      told them what they were doing wrong.

      "No, not that way," she said. "This way, like I do, here I'll show you."

      Week after week she stayed to her task, the desire to share her love and
      passion, and the wisdom of beautiful music,
      with her young charges. But the duty became wearisome. It seemed no
      matter how much she played for them, or how
      patiently she showed them the right way, or how diligently she corrected
      their errors, they still could only play
      "Three Blind Mice," or "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star." She grew very
      disappointed and irritable, and finally, one day angry.
      "You will never learn how to play," she told one of the little girls.
      "You are clumsy and you do not apply yourself.

      You must feel the music, hear it in your heart. Like I do. You are not
      trying hard enough. You must not want it. I have had enough of your bad
      efforts. I will teach you no longer." And that very day she resolved
      never to teach again.

      She returned to the concert halls, and the admiring applause of fine
      people, who wondered at her great gift.

      At another time in another part of town, lived a woman, in a small house
      with a dilapidated porch. Every evening she
      went to work cleaning the high school's bathrooms and hallways. When she
      came home late at night, she fed her cats,
      and sat down to play at the old worn mahogany upright piano that would
      never hold a proper tone again. She knew
      only a few songs, some hymns and a folk song or two. But playing those
      songs her mother taught her brought her
      peace and respite from a life that had not been easy.

      Each day, as the children walked home from school, she opened her front
      door and played her few songs. A few of
      them would venture carefully onto that old porch and peer into the room.
      She always invited them in and promptly
      gave up her seat at the old keyboard to them. Without fail at least one
      of them would pound on the keys.

      "Ah," she said, "I see you like cacophany. What great sounds you make.
      Here, let me make them with you." And she
      would come and stand by their sound and pound away with great delight. A
      little one would move over and make
      room for her at the piano. She played for them then, "Twinkle, Twinkle
      Little Star" and "Silent Night." And when
      they put their hands next to hers on the chipped and crooked keys, she
      smiled and said, "yes, that's right. I love the sounds you make."

      She was delighted when one of the children learned to play "Three Blind
      Mice." She sang with them at the top of her off-key voice and brought
      them milk and cookies to celebrate and thought what a great gift it was
      to share this time together loving the sound of an old out of tune piano
      and the laughter of a child who never knew that she might be
      doing it wrong.

      Now fearless and utterly conviced that she could absolutely play this
      thing, the child learned a hymn and then a folk
      song. They played and laughed and ate and sang and never took it at all
      seriously. .
      Many years later the woman learned that the girl had become a great
      pianist and played in the finest concert halls.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      **Gene/Jerry Specs thread (continues):**

      Gene (was responding to Jerry):
      NOW we are getting somewhere, so to speak!

      If is 'funny' how those specks can see each-other, but NOT the space in
      which they dwell.

      Thanks for the link! And speaking of specks, where are those specs? 8-)
      Noticing space,

      andrew:
      'Noticing space'...space noticing. Light noticing light. Speck notices
      specks?
      ������Speck notices light reflected from specks. Speck
      notices manifestation of light. Speck interprets light as other specks,
      then deduces own speckness from first interpretation. Closed loop.
      Secondary mode of awareness.
      Light noticing light...raw awareness, unprocessed, primary mode.
      ������Speck resists fragmentation by being fragment. By
      supressing primary awareness and running secondary mode only, speck
      establishes boundary and ensures speckness. When speck allows primary
      mode to run, speckness collapses.
      ������Running two modes at once produces dissonance, each
      requiring overriding the interference and discontinuity produced by the
      influence of the other unless succesfully merged into common process,
      this integrative ability is the human possibility.
      The discovery is that secondary mode only need run as called for,
      discontinuously.

      Speck loses ongoing speckness, is light seeing light as light, manifest.

      Gene:
      Hi Andrew...
      Hey, how did the quantum physicist know that photons are both
      intelligent and friendly?

      Because... they are very 'particular' and they 'wave'.
      ---
      Bruce:
      Excruciating, Gene.
      Thank you! :-)

      Gene (continuing):
      In this 'particular' conversation, we see that we are bi-phasic; what
      appears as matter is energy, what appears solid is ephemeral, what
      appears temporary is permanent...

      Light occurs in invisible stainless space; invisible stainless space is
      the arena in which all of this occurs. Clear as diamond, it carries us
      all; it is the stage upon which all 'enlightenment' takes place.

      Phenomenon may occur, but all occur in space; phenomenon, the world of
      'things and men', comes and goes in the blink of the eye; a flash of
      light, occurring in space.

      Invisible stainless space is the womb which bears us, is the midwife who
      catches us, is the breast we suckle, is the path we walk, and it is the
      undertaker who takes us into emptiness... yet the whole time, we see it
      not...
      Open to space,

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      **New thread: Is It Fair?**

      Mark:
      Is it fair to paraphrase Nelson Rockefeller?

      "Gentlemen, set the thing straight once and for all. The Ego is not
      there to create separation, the ego is there to preserve
      separation..."

      Dutch:
      No, the ego IS separation!

      Gene:
      Like a neutral bookmark, ego is there to preserve. Imagine, an ego which
      preserves our conscious awareness. Now, is that an upgrade, or what?

      To assume: "I am not as I was" is to predicate 'how I am now' upon 'how
      I was'; this strategy necessitates having both 'states' (how I was, how
      I am) "in order to" be 'as I am now'.

      To let go of 'how I was' is to let go of 'how I am'; now, there is no
      state.

      This is the problem with 'changing' or 'growing'; in change, what 'was'
      persists, as the foundation upon which 'what is now' must rest. If there
      is not 'what was', there is no 'what is now'.

      With no 'what is now', there is only the living nondual observer,
      observing 'nondually'. This living nondual observer may make use of any
      means to communicate this neutrality; any trickery, which leads to the
      falling away of the assumption of the reality of 'what was', may be
      employed, for the purpose of connecting our disparate nodes.

      Change or no change is in the changeless; and it is the changeless which
      is never seen. Form mutates, time seems to occur, and it is the job of
      ego to reconcile all of this complexity. It is the job of mind to
      catalogue the particulars, and thus generate generalities; mind calls
      great generalities 'truth', and thus enlists ego to the task of
      preserving particulates.

      The energies of Being are thus diverted to the maintenance of what is
      transitory; it is then that ego is seen to be a 'problem'.

      Reverting to basic nature, is reversion to an unknown future, to
      formlessness; reversion to basic nature is thus openness to the unknown.
      Unknown is what is unseen, when space is filled with preserved
      particles, all of which stand for truth, none of which will survive, all
      of which are subsumed by the changeless.

      Give up changing, to survive.
      Space never changes.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      **New thread: The freeheart Story**

      freeheart (Eric):
      Well....I am losing a wife, probably the role as primary father to 4
      children, I hurt from an Hernia of past 10 months, considering leaving
      my home of 6 years, ending my profession of 18, am a little scared and
      have a moment to compose an actual letter, So...

      We all have a choice. Somewhere, god is a living god, a dance more
      beautiful than
      beauty. I don't know about that. But in
      my little life's wanderings, I have watched something else beautiful.
      People.
      Choicelessly, people dance. Sometimes in love sometimes in war. Mostly
      somewhere inbetween. Always to me, the most beautiful Thing.

      And I loved them for it. All of it. Still do.

      By the time I was 19, I was living in San Francisco, just three years
      from a broken dysfunctional USAF family, and a year into a relationship
      with a 29 year old scorpio. I had chosen to stay with her, moving away
      from my mother, to care for the child she was carrying. She had been an
      brief encounter earlier, but convinced me of a parental
      obligation for what ultimately turned out to be another Man's daughter.
      At the time of rebeginning our relationship, I knew not of her
      pregnancy, only that she was under police protection from a powerful
      cocaine dealer, who had thrown her out of his Compound in Palm Springs;
      with two black eyes, and a promise to return and finish the job. In the
      next year up north,
      Judy shared many things esoteric, including the invitation to take her
      place in the ongoing group work, began by Alice Bailey. I had no
      interest in this. Within a year this relationship would end entirely.
      What happened one afternoon, while chatting casually with Judy at our
      apartment, became the unknown center of my life up until yesterday.

      While discussing my then growing awareness of the plight of Man - and
      the folly's of His religions - a thought appeared, an allowance I had
      always resisted. It was that God might only be in the imagination of
      Man. Man that I Loved, Man notably incapable of much more than tying his
      own shoes. Man with violence in his heart, Man with a certain button in
      his greedy hand. It was 1982, and I realized that if there was no God,
      then it would be up to this same Man, to avoid Nuclear Armageddon.

      I am not stupid. I knew exactly what this meant.

      So there I was, suddenly really panicked, spinning all the wheels,
      attempting to save the world in my own perceptions. Nothing. Nothing
      came. It was real, and I must say, I could see no hope. Petty Man.
      Struggling Man. Beautiful God like Humans. Bombs, to justify christian
      prophesy.

      And Eric Laing, always the optimist, understood finally the frivolity of
      hope. I gave up to what was so obviously... Fate.
      (hang tight, one of three... still writing:-)


      Part II:
      It was sad. So we sat for awhile. And then I went back to fixing, well,
      researching all my thoughts. Three things came to me:
      A picture from a few weeks earlier in the New York Times, of an Indian
      Guru, didn't read the story beside it- just remember
      his eyes: emormas, oval shaped.
      The Bible's Phrosphey: ..."and at that time, He shall speak
      simultaniously, to each and everyone of his Children, in Their own
      tongues..."

      And about the movie "ET The Extraterestial", currently being played, and
      dubbed into native languages, all around the world.

      Me: still busy 'fixing'. Scant materials, two tools, no hope.

      I remember turning to Judy, and saying:
      if there is no God, then why is the movie E....(i tried again),
      E...E....

      Total Implosion.

      It came down first, bounced really low,
      and then shot straight up. Light -
      Fountains - Colors - Feelings - Birth
      Death - Math - Laughing People - Wonder - Mystery - Love. Yes Love. And
      it was
      warm, and good, and soft, and fuzzy.

      Later, Judy commented that for the first several minutes, (tears,
      uncontrolled
      sobbing) that she thought I was releasing some surpressed early
      emotions. But after a half hour of it changing into my softly swaying
      iditots grin eyes sealed shut
      routine, that something terrible had
      probably happened with my body's chemistry.

      When I opened my eyes finally (hell no, I didn't want it to stop!) the
      room was
      empty. Since to me it had seemed to take only seconds, I could not
      figure out
      where she had gone, I thought "I would have heard her get up".

      I sat there a long time, by myself. Judy came in eventually, and asked
      if things were going OK? I tried to explain, so confused about all this.
      She did not want to talk much. I let it go.

      Funny thing that.

      So life went on. And I never thought much about it. Every then and
      again, amazing
      people and friends of mine would hear this story from me. Some seemed a
      little interested, many not.

      Life went on.

      (to be continued)

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      Mark Brings the Highlights to a Close:

      Waves, waves, waves, waves, waves... water.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

      love to all,
      oh


      _______________________________________THE THREE ANSWERS:
      Go Anywhere.
      Do Nothing.
      Love Everybody.
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