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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    MANCHINE The Universe, a construct of conscience, seen in consciousness the result of focus. A dog has consciousness, but of self perhaps not. We have
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 27, 2000

      The Universe, a construct of conscience, seen in
      consciousness the result of focus.

      A dog has consciousness, but of self perhaps not.
      We have consciousness, but of self perhaps not.

      Both see the veil, not all recognize it.

      They call it the veil. Why? Those that have recognized it

      We recognize it finally when we learn to look through a
      different eye.
      This "eye" is a point of focus that directly perceives the
      construct of conscience.

      I speak of a construct of conscience, of the Physical
      Conscience, pure energy in the here and now. I choose
      Physical Conscience instead of Human Conscience, considering
      that it is possible that there may be other intelligent
      physical life forms. I presume as well that there are
      Non-Physical Consciences, and in keeping with Infinite
      Granularity, these are "sub-elements" of THE Conscience.

      In the "dual" sense, our eyes along with the other four
      senses see mass, objects, due to their limitation as
      physical sensors. Scientists know that mass, like the desk
      for instance is made up of atoms. If one were the size of
      an electron, the next nearest object, possibly a proton,
      would seem to be as far away as a star. Like in space. The
      desk is mostly empty space, a web of energy. The desk seems
      solid because when the electrons and protons of our finger
      comes close to the electrons and protons of the desk, there
      are nuclear forces which repel. This is not fiction. It is
      a "dual" fact.

      Without getting lost in dual detail, the Physical Conscience
      forms a construct of pure energy. The light of
      consciousness is our gift, and with a touch more of the gift
      of Grace than the dog, we more clearly perceive the
      construct of conscience.

      The veil is recognized and therefore available to be lifted
      when we begin to perceive the construct directly,
      illuminating it with our consciousness, looking past the
      eyes, feeling the intent of the energy weaving the detail of
      every twig, every pebble. Feeling it too weaving in your
      walk, feeling the effect the light of your consciousness has
      on the construct. Things give and take, move and respond.

      The light of your consciousness may illuminate a thread of
      energy that is perceived as a star, or another that is
      perceived as fear or another that is perceived as doubt, the
      ego focuses the light around knots of particular fibres
      therefore loosing vision of the greater picture. A
      beautiful view provides a feeling of peace, but it veils the
      incredible construct at its root. A cruel murder provides a
      feeling of rage, but it veils the powerful construct at its

      May we all see that every detail is a reminder of the
      incredible conscience of Being that is behind the veil.


      Roger: Mira, NonDuality has nothing to do with hypnosis or
      belief. Yoga ( that is Surya Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Laya Yoga,
      Gyana Yoga, Karma Yoga, Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Tantra,
      etc.. ) is NOT about belief, it's about the REAL experience
      of discovering the knower beyond the surface levels of
      thought & emotion.
      Belief is on the level of memory, projection, mind, emotion
      & ego. The various purificatory procedures of Yoga take one
      beyond projective belief to the actual experience of
      stillness. A still mind then discovers it's source.

      Mira: Verbally, I could respond in two different ways to
      your words:
      1) Your statement that NonDuality has nothing to do with
      hypnosis or belief, indicates a duality.
      A duality where hypnosis and belief are something different
      from"nonduality", thus having nothing to do with them.
      You indicate an experience of discovering the knower beyond
      the levels of thought & emotion, thus splitting them into

      Roger: Sorry Mira for delay in responding... I'm not sure
      I'm addressing the discussion:

      If we are unrealized, then thoughts about non-duality or
      Realization are just thoughts, not really much different
      from other thoughts.

      NonDuality or Realization is a PERCEPTUAL REALITY that can
      never be created by any thought. So how to move beyond this
      barrier of thought?

      My primary 'way' is: to notice when identification is
      present, and following the discrimination "NOT this!" be
      aware in the stillness that follows, and encourage this
      process with increasingly constant vigilent watchfulness.

      But there are many other ways too.

      Mira: 2) Your statement that NonDuality has nothing to do
      with hypnosis or belief, reflects your nondual view and
      understanding of the nondual nature of all things. The
      emphasis on the discovery of the knower as the real
      experience, indicates the nondual unity of that which is
      knowing all things known, like memory, projection and

      Roger: My "understanding" is _very_ limited. For me
      personally, the highest activity I can engage in as a 'doer'
      or one who claims volition, is to notice when there is an
      "I" engaged in speculation, or some emotion, of a doer
      projecting some favored "view"... and this very observation
      that awareness is identified with something limited has the
      effect of interrupting the identification. Even this
      process of negation must be negated. Why even think at
      all? Thoughts arise when they are useful, but other than
      that, why think at all?

      Mira: I know, trying, capturing in words, words remain in
      the realm of dualism.
      I indicate, point, explain, confirm, deny, and then there is
      always that response post that indicates that I didn't
      manage to phrase it completely.
      Such is the nature of that which cannot be said, our own
      simple nature.
      Then, I smile, I laugh and look at ourselves again in
      I am so glad that I have the entire world to be complete.
      Thank you for your comment Roger.

      Roger: Originally I believe I had the thought that you might
      have been entertaining thoughts about non-duality rather
      than resting in alert stillness. But that was just a

      My way is to distinguish
      thought/emotion/attachment/projection/identification from
      stillness. All that need be done is to notice the
      attachment and understand "Not this!".
      Resting in stillness transforms. I'm not very fond of
      thoughts about nonduality, unless somehow they facilitate
      the transformation.

      Like death, it comes when it comes, and like death, certain
      things are more apt to cause it.

      I agree with the first part of your statement, but the
      latter half is more of a leap than I'd care to take.....

      It may appear ....on the surface....that certain things
      *cause* death, but I suspect that a deeper look would reveal
      that there are greater forces at play than the 'apparent',
      grosser ones.

      For example, I'm told that both the great sages,
      Nisargardatta and Ramana Maharishi died after bouts with
      cancer. If this is true....then to say that cancer was the
      *cause* of (or reason for) their shedding their physical
      forms ....would be to miss seeing the 'bigger picture'.

      Dying with cancer, being hit by a car, having a heart
      attack, jumping out of a 12 story building, are all simply
      the 'mechanisms' thru which the 'death transitions' can

      Skye: I'm discovering that one can bounce into the grave
      without having the body violated by these chemicals in our
      carcenogenic environment by returning the body to it
      original immunological strength via correct dietary
      nutrition. The Hunzas and many races who's immune systems
      have not been damaged by our 20th century lifestyle DO NOT
      get cancer. Here's an excerpt from an interesting site


      Cancer cells differ from healthy cells in that they are, in
      effect, immortal. Whereas healthy cells live a short while
      and then die, cancer cells continue dividing. The program
      for cell death is never activated.

      Most cancer experts believe each of us develops cancer
      hundreds if not millions of times during a lifetime. Given
      the trillions of developing cells, the millions of errors
      that can occur in the differentiating (maturing) process of
      each cell, and our constant exposure to carcinogenic
      substances (smoke, car fumes, radiation, etc.), the laws of
      probability dictate that mis-developing cells must occur
      frequently in the life of every person. It therefore stands
      to reason that a healthy body has a corrective system to
      "reprogram" newly developed cancer cells into normal
      differentiation pathways before cancer can take hold.
      skye: And that corrective system is supplied by the food you
      eat out of love for you body. So guys, the time to fight
      cancer is before you get it by making sure you nourish the
      body well with all the much needed vitamins, minerals and
      the as yet massive number of undocumented nutrients within
      real unprocessed food. The body doesn't need to suffer,
      cancer is a immunological disorder.

      Andrew: "When there is no attention (in coma or dreamless
      sleep) there is no individual. Individual mind is the way
      awareness appears to itself when it is active."

      Xan: Yes. The way I would say this is: In the process of
      creation indivisible awareness becomes individualized. Your
      experiences - events and forms in your awareness - are not
      identical to mine, either sensory or subtle. The *fall*
      occurs when the individual is taken to be the whole of
      oneself. In awakening, individual attention was previously
      centered on forms and their movements, and a shift occurs to
      awareness without center or boundary and realization of this
      as original self. Yet even then your experiences are not
      identical to mine because our attention is in different
      places and from different reference points.

      Not that it matters what-so-ever. ^,^

      If something in me begins to notice that I am suffering in
      one form or another, instead of beginning to suffer about my
      suffering, it can become a springboard to wake up. Or if I
      am resting in pure awareness and I notice my attention
      beginning to wander, I again can use that friction or energy
      to wake up.

      What is Satsang? I assume it's sort of a "church like
      gathering"? It's a particular day(Sunday?), or like
      whenever? How does it work?


      LOL! Yes, you are totally right :-))))))))

      Satsang literaly means 'meeting with the truth'. It means a
      gathering of people who want to ask questions about
      nonduality. The one that answers the questions is called
      the guru. If all goes well, everybody realizes his/her true
      nature :-)))


      "Sat" means "being" and "sang" means "with." So satang means
      being with.
      Usually what happens is a bunch of people get together and
      "be" with someone who is "Being" there, or better "Being"
      THE there. They get a chance to see what "Being" looks like
      and ask questions on how to do it.
      You would think there wouldn't be much to say about how to
      be, but luckily there's a lot.


      Sat means truth, sang means gathering. Satsang is people
      gathered together for the sake of truth. Generally there is
      a teacher and the style depends on him/her. It is not
      primarily ritualistic or ceremonial as church is. At
      various times there may a talk/discourse given, questions
      and answers, sitting in silence, music. A genuine satsang
      is full of life and discovery ... in my experience.


      Is there any difference between being the observer and being
      the witness? -- Mary

      LARRY: Osho makes a distinction between witnessing as
      practice (meditation) and awareness as fruition of that

      "The important thing is that you are watchful, that you have
      not forgotten to watch, that you are watching ... watching
      ... watching. And slowly slowly, as the watcher becomes
      more and more solid, stable, unwavering, a transformation
      happens. The things that you were watching disappear. For
      the first time, the watcher itself becomes the watched, the
      observer itself becomes the observed.
      You have come home."
      --from Meditation: The First And Last Freedom

      KRISTI: I have a question about the watcher. I have become
      aware that the watcher in me...is also the same "i" that
      under conditions of stress wants to order my thoughts or
      frantically searches for thoughts that will relieve stress
      or "suffering". I have a watcher who watches this process
      also. This aspect of my self...I experience as separate
      from the part of my self that is "suffering." So, I have a
      watcher who watches and wants to organize the thoughts of
      the suffering parts...and then there is another level of
      watching that observes this entire process. How many layers
      of watchers are there? I'm tired of meeting all these
      watchers and I just want to be done with this process!

      LARRY: Hi Kristi, one way of sorting this out is to say that
      there is no sufferer, no feeler, no thinker. There is
      suffering, feeling, and thinking but they're just stuff that
      happens. The main thought is "I"
      and it usually comes with a certain feeling but it doesn't
      actually refer to anything even though there is a terrific
      centrality to it. In order for it to mean something it has
      to be combined with another thought or feeling. This
      results in identifying WITH as opposed to simply
      identifying. If I stub my toe I can identify it as a
      painful sensation, but if there is a certain feeling in my
      stomach, I AM hungry.
      However, what makes all this work is awareness,
      consciousness, mind.
      Witnessing is a way of getting the WITH out of identifying.
      You could say it is being "I" rather than thinking "I". "I"
      thought can't witness anything but awareness can and
      awareness has an even greater centrality than "I" thought.
      Actually, awareness is bigger than "central"; it is all, but
      that's something for the jnani to worry about. Awareness as
      witness IS central; so when you look at "I" you are being
      looking rather than a thought that needs an adjective. I
      think that's more or less the gist of it.

      Self Enquiry (Vicharasangraham)
      Of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

      A new translation by Dr T. M. P. Mahadevan, M.A., Ph.D.
      >From the original Tamil


      The present work in prose consists of forty questions with
      answers covering the entire range of spiritual disciplines
      required for the gaining of release (moksha). The
      questioner was Gambhiram Seshayya, one of the early devotees
      of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi. He was a Municipal
      Overseer at Tiruvannamalai about 1900. Besides being an
      ardent Ramabhakta (worshipper of Rama) he was interested in
      the study and practice of Yoga. He used to read Swami
      Vivekananda's lectures on the different yoga's as also an
      English translation of the Rama-gita. For resolving the
      difficulties which he came across while studying these books
      and in his spiritual practices, he approached Bhagavan Sri
      Ramana from time to time. Bhagavan, who was only twenty-one
      years old, was then living in Virupaksha cave on Arunachala
      Hill. As he was keeping silent at the time not because of
      any vow taken but because he was not inclined to talk - he
      wrote out his answers to Seshayya's questions on bits of
      paper. These writings over the period 1900-1902 were later
      copied in a note-book by Seshayya. The material thus
      gathered was published by Sri Ramanasramam under the little
      Vichara-sangraham which literally means 'A Compendium of
      Self-Enquiry.' A digest of the teaching contained in this
      work was later printed in English bearing the title
      'Self-Enquiry'. In that English version, the questions were
      omitted and the substance of Bhagavan's teaching was given,
      classifying it in twelve short chapters with appropriate
      headings. The present English translation is of the entire
      original text Vichara-sangraham as it is in Tamil. The
      Vichara-sangraham has unique value in the sense that it
      constitutes the first set of instructions given by Bhagavan
      in his own hand-writing.

      A careful study of the instructions given by Bhagavan here
      will reveal that they are based on his own plenary
      experience as confirmed by the sacred texts which were
      brought to his notice by the early devotees and which he
      perused for the purpose of clearing the doubts that arose in
      the minds of the devotees. In the course of his
      instructions, Bhagavan makes use of such expressions as,
      'the scriptures declare', 'thus say the sages,' etc.; he
      also cites passages from texts like the Bhagavad-gita and
      the Vivekachudamani and once he mentions by name the
      Ribhu-gita. But it is quite clear that these citations are
      offered only as confirmations of the truth discovered by
      Bhagavan himself in his own experience.

      The basic teaching is that of Advaita-Vedanta. The plenary
      experience of the non-dual Self is the goal; enquiry into
      the nature of the self is the means. When the mind
      identifies the self with the not-self (the body, etc.),
      there is bondage; when this wrong identification is removed
      through the enquiry 'Who am I ?' there is release. Thus,
      Self-enquiry is the direct path taught by Bhagavan Ramana.
      The 'I'-experience is common to all. Of all thoughts, the
      'I'-thought is the first to arise. What one has to do is to
      enquire into the source of the 'I'-thought. This is the
      reverse process of what ordinarily happens in the life of
      the mind. The mind enquires into the constitution and
      source of everything else which, on examination, will be
      found to be its own projection; it does not reflect on
      itself and trace itself to its source. Self-discovery can
      be achieved by giving the mind an inward turn. This is not
      to be confused with the introspection of which the
      psychologists speak. Self-enquiry is not the mind's
      inspection of its own contents; it is tracing the mind's
      first mode, the 'I'-thought to its source which is the
      Self. When there is proper and persistent enquiry, the
      'I'-thought also ceases and there is the wordless
      illumination of the form 'I'-'I' which is the pure
      consciousness. This is release, freedom from bondage. The
      method by which this is accomplished, as has been shown, is
      enquiry which, in Vedanta, is termed jnana, knowledge.

      True devotion (bhakti), meditation (dhyana), and
      concentration (yoga) are identical therewith. As Bhagavan
      makes it perfectly clear, not to forget the plenary
      Self-experience is real devotion, mind-control, knowledge,
      and all other austerities. In the language of devotion, the
      final goal may be described as the resolution of the mind in
      its source which is God, the Self, in that of technical
      yoga, it may be described as the dissolution of the mind in
      the Heart-lotus. These are only different ways of
      expressing the same truth.

      The path of Self-enquiry is found difficult by those who
      have not acquired the necessary competence for it. The mind
      should first be rendered pure and one-pointed. This is done
      through meditation, etc. So, the various paths, in their
      secondary sense, are auxiliaries to the direct path which is
      Self-enquiry. In this context, Bhagavan refers to three
      grades of aspirants: the highest, the medium, and the
      lowest. For the highest type of aspirants, the path
      prescribed is Vedanta enquiry; through this path, the mind
      becomes quiescent in the Self and finally ceases to be,
      leaving the pure Self-experience untarnished and
      resplendent. The path for the medium is meditation on the
      Self; meditation consists in directing a continuous flow of
      the mind towards the same object; there are several modes of
      meditation; the best mode is that which is of the form 'I am
      the Self'; this mode eventually culminates in
      Self-realization. For the lowest grade of aspirants, the
      discipline that is useful is breath-control which in turn
      results in mind control.

      Bhagavan explains the difference between jnana-yoga (path of
      knowledge) and dhyana-yoga (path of meditation) thus: jnana
      is like subduing a self-willed bull by coaxing it with the
      help of a sheaf of green grass, while dhyana is like
      controlling it by using force. Just as there are eight
      limbs for dhyana-yoga, there are eight for jnana-yoga. The
      limbs of the latter are more proximate to the final stage
      than those of the former. For instance, while the pranayama
      of technical yoga consists in regulating and restraining
      breath, the pranayama that is a limb of jnana relates to
      rejecting the name-and-form world which is non-real and
      realizing the Real which is Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.

      Realization of the Self can be gained in this very life. In
      fact, Self-realization is not something which is to be
      gained afresh. We are already the Self; the Self alone is.
      It is ignorance that makes us imagine that we have not
      realized the Self. When this ignorance is removed through
      Self-knowledge, we realize our eternal Self-nature. One who
      has gained this realization is called a jivan-mukta
      (liberated while living). To others, he may appear to
      continue to tenant a body. For the benefit of those others
      it is stated that the body will continue so long as the
      residue of the prarabdha-karma (that karma of the past which
      has begun to fructify in the shape of the present body)
      lasts, and that when the momentum is spent the body will
      fall and the jivan-mukta will become a videha-mukta. But
      from the standpoint of the absolute truth, there is no
      difference in mukti. What needs to be understood is that
      mukti or release is the inalienable nature of the Self.

      This, in substance, is Bhagavan Sri Ramana's teaching in the

      University Of Madras.
      T. M. P. MAHADEVAN November 15, 1965.


      The essence of mind, the discriminating thoughts, and the
      emerging appearances are all devoid of any separate,
      independent substance. They are the diverse manifestations
      of the innate power of awareness, the way rays emanate from
      the sun or the waves rise from the ocean. Whatever thoughts
      or appearances emerge in the self abiding nature of the mind
      are devoid of intrinsic goodness or evil. Apart from
      recognizing the identity of an outflowing thought when it
      arises, or the identity of the settled mind when it is
      settled, as well as recognizing the identity of an emerging
      appearance once it arises and then maintaining it through
      mindfulness born of innermost awareness, one need not alter,
      divide, or modulate each experience. Je Gampopa comments:

      Whether one is absorbed in a nondiscriminating state,
      neither affirming nor rejecting anything, or cognizing
      diverse thoughts, if one is able to maintain a tranquil
      mind, unmodulated by dualistic discrimination, and if one
      realizes the inner sense that this state is
      nondiscriminating awareness, one has discovered the essence
      of the mind, its inmost disposition, and mode of abiding
      nature. When such an understanding is dawning, one need not
      make efforts in meditation. It will come automatically to
      him so that he can neither stop nor abandon it.
      Similarly, as diverse thoughts arise without his being able
      to obstruct them, so does nondual awareness arise in the
      same manner.

      Je Gomchung gives a similar comment:

      This intrinsic nature of lucid awareness remains
      inseparable, undistractable, and uninterruptible. Every
      emerging memory and thought contains the same intrinsic
      identity as awareness if ordinary awareness remains
      undistracted; every memory and thought is identical with
      awareness. Do not view this as deficient.


      An American attorney had just finished a guest lecture at a
      law school in Italy when an Italian lawyer approached him
      and asked, "Is it true that a person can fall down on a
      sidewalk in your county and then sue the landowners for lots
      of money?"

      Told that it was true, the lawyer turned to his partner and
      started speaking rapidly in Italian. When they stopped, the
      American attorney asked if they wanted to go to America to
      practice law.

      "No, no," one replied. "We want to go to America and fall
      down on sidewalks."








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