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NDhighlights - THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 10, 2000

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  • Old Hag
    NDhighlights for Thursday, February 10, 2000 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Discussion of Sir Jerry Hillary s Spilling Cremora While Climbing Mt. Meruego
    Message 1 of 2 , Feb 18, 2000
      NDhighlights for Thursday, February 10, 2000

      Discussion of Sir Jerry Hillary's Spilling Cremora While Climbing Mt.
      Meruego During Inclement Weather - Was It Carefully Planned

      ~Matthew: that was a fine post on ego preservation
      by uarlove. I am surprised there hasnt been more response. I suspect he
      hit the nail on the head. EVERYTHING we do is ego's attempt at
      preserving itself because ego doesnt realize that it doesnt have to do
      anything to survive. It cannot die. It has its natural place, its just
      that it has sort of overstepped its boundries and needs to be relegated
      back to its given duties.

      There is an excellent book recently out called "Halfway up the
      Mountain,the error of premature claims to enlightenment" by mariana

      One thing it addresses in some detail is the ways in which mind/ego can
      lead one to believe they are fully awake, after having had simply a
      glimpse ot the nondual reality, and even create that false awakening in

      "The path of seeking spiritual guidance, or becoming a student of ones
      own"heart" or "intuition", may risk a lesser chance of being manipulated
      by a spiritual authority figure, but does not minimize the possibility
      of being manipulated by owns own ego"
      -Irina Tweedie.This is a must read for the "realized"

      ~Harsha: Good points. Probably there are no "must reads" for the
      Realized or the unrealized. Consider the possibility that a fixation on
      anything, including the ego and ego preservation strategies, is not
      essential to realization of the Truth.

      ~Hans: I read the post of UARLOVE and I fully agree.
      My ego simply forgot to respond :)

      But I too do feel we have to be exetremly careful by making any
      statement on awakening and the like. So I better stop here !

      ~Jerry: I don't feel I have to be careful. Instead, I feel I need to be
      extremely careless.

      I'll say whatever I want. "I am fully enlightened."

      ~Mira jumps in: No, no Jerry, that must be your Ego manipulating you
      while being halfway up the mountain. You should really check with a good
      description of Enlightenment before making any such claims! I think you
      should go see a realible authority before it is too late. Hurry!

      ~Jerry continues: And/Or, "I am not enlightened."

      ~Mira: Now Jerry! Haven't you heard what all those reliable authorities
      have to say about Enlightenment? Everyone already is Enlightened!
      Tssss.... making claims about not being Enlightened! Must be your Ego
      manipulating you, Jer. I think you should go consult a reliable
      authority on this; you will find that you may are mistaken about not
      being Enlightened. Hurry!

      ~Jerry continues: What's the big deal. Lightning didn't strike me down.
      Although a bottle of lightening for my coffee did fall on my head.

      ~Harsha: Yesterday, I was sitting with with a group of colleagues,
      fellow professors. Very nice and highly advanced group intellectually.
      Wise and funny. One of the older colleagues, a distinguished professor
      from France who knows me said in his jovial manner, "Well you have
      attained the Zen state of emptiness. "

      I had to laugh. "I cannot say that I have attained emptiness as I am
      Emptiness," I said smiling.

      "Oh, I am sorry", the other gentleman said, "I was trying to be prudent
      in my remark and did not wish to be presumptuous." So we were laughing
      and I said we are all empty in a way, emptying our selves all the time
      one way or another.

      So I agree with brother Jerry. We should be at ease saying whatever we
      want when whatever we say points to everything being easy. When
      everything seems hard and all we can talk about is how hard everything
      is for everyone, including enlightenment, then what is the point of
      saying anything.

      ~Hans: (to Jerrry) I am afraid you took me very literaly. I did not mean
      at all that a person should not think or say whatever he wants.

      What I meant is that we should not take very seriously what we think, so
      I meant exactly what you say.

      Ed's Note: Here's hopin' he didn't say anything exactly.

      Mary Responding to the Gospel of J:

      Mary: I was thinking yesterday, after reading this how funny it was that
      I had so much work to do that I couldn't find time to respond to this
      exquisite post. You had me between laughing out loud and tears of peace
      the whole day.

      The last sentence,
      "Reality is the same, and that's the feel of I AM. Everything else is a
      joke because it changes."

      No one thing is greater than I AM.
      Everything else is within it. If the Sun exploded or the Universe turned
      itself inside out, that would merely be a scene within the marvel of I

      Your descripction reminded me of something I had never connected. I have
      always felt that my first sight of I AM was at age 12, still do, but
      maybe a couple of years before, in one given moment I realized that I
      would die. I went running to my mother and told her I'm going to die, I
      don't want to die. She did everything to hide her horror, wondering what
      had happened, until she realized that it wasn't "imminent". She tried to
      convince me that it was OK, I had lots of time yet. I said, no, that's
      not it, I'm going to die someday.

      Then she knew she had a problem! But persistently, she fixed it with
      hugs and caring stroking of my hair and I let her convinve me that I had
      lots of time yet.
      I hadn't related this with the more "cosmic experience" later,
      completely different sense. I felt a reality, a sense of being that was
      not possible! I think I said, My God! I am.. it can't be. I couldn't
      look it in the face, it was so powerful I had to shake my head to make
      it go away. From then on, I knew that there's nothing bigger than I AM.
      I call it from time to time to recharge my batteries, and I think that
      every time I see it I say "My God" and then my wife will find me there
      with tears.

      Judi Tells Will How She Dood IT:

      Will; OK, you did it Judi. Now how do I do it?

      Judi: I got honest with myself one night and saw that I was suffering,
      as though I had been lying to myself. And at that point, there was no
      more *going on* for me. In other words, instead of looking to the future
      and to someone else, (God included), I looked inside myself to see what
      was the actual cause of my suffering and what, if anything, I could do
      to bring it to an end. I grabbed myself by the throat so to speak. And
      what I realized was that I was creating it myself, not in some condition
      alone, but it was the identity of the seeker itself that was *itself*
      And in that process, in that direct insight, the seeker vanished, fell
      away, and what was left was *me*, consciousness only, not a separate
      *one*. And then understanding started flooding thru me and I *knew*.
      And that's *me*. There is only and simply *here*, the "Self", which is
      no *Self* at all. And this is *where* I live and have my being.


      Dan (PrettyhappyDude) On NDS "Religions," With Responses From Mira, Judi
      and Roger:

      ~Dan: There seems to be some kind of new religion forming around
      nonduality and Arjuna Nick is placing himself as one of the gurus, along
      with > Gangaji, and many others.

      ~Roger:I think you're on to something very significant here Dan.
      NonDuality is an advanced teaching. A prerequisite is the ability to
      move into mystic stillness by intention.

      And some [PB] say that simply staying in vigilent stillness increasingly
      at all times is the essence of this stage.

      However, if one can't still the mind sufficiently, then NonDuality
      teaching will be useless, it will become just more & different activity
      of thought rather than transcendental reality. In fact NonDuality
      teaching can be less useful than religion because religion at least
      instills (or should instill ) respect for moral & ethical behavior. ND
      is conveniently misinterperted by some as justification for ignoring the
      consequences of one's behavior.

      IMHO teachers who teach ONLY a NonDual approach are ineffectual. Most
      people first need to master the subtle effort of vigilence or devotion
      or service or energetics etc.. as found in the many different yogic
      paths. Then having stilled the mind, NonDuality teaching is

      ~Dan (continuing): It's apparently very reassuring.

      ~Mira:Errrr..... isn't that what religions are for?
      I mean, would you know of an example of a religion that is not
      reassuring? I don't believe it would be very appealing?

      ~Dan (continuing):
      You don't have to do anything.
      Just learn the lingo.
      Talk the talk.
      It's very complacent.
      You can be your neurotic self.

      ~Mira:Wait a minute.
      You can only be your self.
      "Neurotic" is one of many adjectives.
      The self can be coloured with infinite adjectives, these change over
      yet self remains unchanged.

      By telling yourself, and making yourself believe to be pure awareness,
      is making yourself believe to be the very concept that has appeared as a
      result of hearing this word. To tell yourself you are enlightened, is
      making yourself believe to be the very concept that one has of what
      being enlightened looks like.

      Mira, NonDuality has nothing to do with hypnosis or belief. Yoga ( that
      is Surya Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Laya Yoga, Gyana Yoga, Karma Yoga, Raja
      Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Tantra, etc.. ) is NOT about belief, it's about the
      REAL experience of discovering the knower beyond the surface levels of
      thought & emotion.

      Belief is on the level of memory, projection, mind, emotion & ego. The
      various purificatory procedures of Yoga take one beyond projective
      belief to the actual experience of stillness. A still mind then
      discovers it's source.

      [PB] = Paul Brunton, read his comments on these issues in a book titled
      something like "Notebooks, Advanced Contemplation"

      ~Dan (continuing): Just tell yourself no effort is involved,
      so why change anything?
      Just tell yourself you are pure awareness. Just say you're enlightened
      because everyone
      is enlightened just as they are.
      Then go on the same way.

      ~Mira: By telling yourself, and making yourself believe to be pure
      awareness, is making yourself believe to be the very concept that has
      appeared as a result of hearing this word. To tell yourself you are
      enlightened, is making yourself believe to be the very concept that one
      has of what being enlightened looks like. There is no harm in this, for
      one still is what one is anyway. The only harm may be in the persistent
      feeling of discomfort. The warning lies in a (sometimes faint and hardly
      noticed) discontentment. This is the longing of the hart, and everyone
      is free in trying to still it with whatever means possible.

      You can try to still this longing by making yourself believe to be
      ".........." (fill out the latest Satsang Word, I believe "THAT" has
      gone out of fashion), but this will not succeed in fulfilling this
      longing. This longing is the only true ally, and it will appear time and
      again, for as long as anyone hasn't succeeded in finding its roots.

      ~Judi (responding to Dan): ***Yes, I fully agree Dan. People convince
      themselves somehow that they are not really seeking, not seekers, when
      who's kidding who? Sad. I'd rather see someone scream and bounce off
      walls, than to stop short and put themselves into

      Dan (continuing:)The new religion has a lot of potential.
      It's great for people who want an easy
      answer. They can learn key phrases
      like "I am That" and go on their
      way, reassured that all is well.

      ~Mira: Yep.
      Until the next disaster hits the fan.
      Doubt starts to creep back in....
      Chanting I am that, I am that, "I" suddenly do not feel so reassured any
      Now, did "I" really get it or not.......???
      (I just love how this works, "I" just cannot do anything but undermining
      its own reassurances)
      I find such reassurance limiting.
      And from what I've seen of life,
      such answers don't ultimately "answer"
      anything, not even for the ones offering them.

      Dan (continuing): My perception: easy answers don't appeal.
      Neither do complex answers.
      Only questions that deepen until
      questioning turns into something else...
      silent reverberating beyond questions or answers. And this yet

      The neurotic patterns that I observe
      are endless repetitions of reactions
      and beliefs.
      Saying "I'm enlightened" while
      continuing to repeat the patterns
      of perception in terms of the past
      is meaningless.
      The past is inherent in the body-mind.
      Its effect isn't ended by talking the talk
      or by ignoring it.

      The work of awareness is ongoing
      throughout the body-mind system.
      Although this work is effortless
      and involves no "me" center, it's
      urgent and involves all of who one is.

      Until the next disaster hits the fan.
      Doubt starts to creep back in....
      Chanting I am that, I am that, "I" suddenly do not feel so reassured any
      Now, did "I" really get it or not.......???
      (I just love how this works, "I" just cannot do anything but undermining
      its own reassurances)

      ~Dan (continuing):Easy answers become an avoidance of the
      "repetition of thought forms"
      that is the complacent status-quo.
      Replacing an old status-quo with a new
      nondual status-quo doesn't resolve the pattern.

      ~Mira: There are no means to resolve the pattern.
      Only the experienced urgency to resolve the pattern can resolve it.
      Indeed merely changing underware doesn't resolve anything, if one has no
      clue about what is beneath it. (What a stupid example).

      Dan (continuing):Perhaps because it is so easy to talk,
      people can convince themselves
      that by talking the talk, that's
      all that's needed.

      ~Mira: Nah, not really. Only for a while. Like the rollercoaster. It is
      nice for a while, but it eventually does stop and it didn't really get
      you anywhere.

      ~Dan (continuing;)No - a real breakthrough is involved.
      Something breaks through the boundaries, shatters the expectations,
      the repetitive cycles invalid.
      It's challenging and with depth, not
      superficial and complacent.

      ~Mira: Oh indeed. It shatters ones entire world as it used to be. It is
      not for the faint of heart!

      ~Dan (continuing): Breaking with the past involves
      one's whole being, and isn't
      something that can be taught.
      It's the movement of Life itself.
      I'm sorry for talking about this so much.
      My apologies.
      All that is expressed is another opinion,
      another point of view.
      No point of view is ultimately "right" or "correct".
      ~Mira: Saves me from defending 'my' point of view.

      ~Dan (continuing;)
      It's exactly as Lao Tzu said,
      the more one talks, the further off one is.

      ~Mira: I'm sure there must be an opposite saying to this one somewhere
      in the same book :-)


      A Couple of Unconditionally Acceptable Swells: Melody and Osho
      lala....they stay at the best hotels...lalala:

      What Osho says below meshes with my own experience.
      It was my material successes that showed me that happiness does not lie
      in wealth. When I 'achieved' what I was taught was the "American Dream"
      I became so depressed I couldn't drag myself out of bed in the morning.
      My world as I had known it ended when that depression arose, and I began
      psychotherapy in the 80's.

      "In a poor society religion cannot be meaningful, because people have
      not yet failed. Their search still carries meaning, the outward search.
      They think if they can get a good house everything will be okay; they
      think if they can get a little money then everything will be okay. A
      poor man can live in illusion, but not a rich man. And if you see a
      rich man living in illusion, remember well, he is still poor, he has not
      succeeded yet.

      A Buddha leaves the palace, a Mahavira leaves the kingdom. They
      succeeded, and success failed them. They became alert that the whole
      direction had been wrong, so they took an about- turn. They moved into
      totally the opposite direction: they were kings, they became beggars;
      they were clothed in the costliest clothes possible, they became naked.
      It became a conversion: success fails, and failure becomes a conversion.

      Buy why does success fail? It fails because you were searching not for
      wealth, you were searching not for power, you were searching not for
      security and safety; you were not searching for a house, you were
      searching for something else. You were searching for the eternal home,
      from where there is no going away. You were searching for eternal rest,
      you were searching for a peace which lasts forever, nontemporal. That
      is what the search is: a search for the home. It is not a search for any
      house outside, it is a search for a state of being where you are at
      home. You were not searching for wealth, you were searching for
      protection against death; you were searching for a life which no death
      can destroy"

      Reading this I also realize that when my seeking for 'reputation and
      material success' ended, the era of a seeking in a different direction
      began. I began seeking love and acceptance. I began seeking
      "unconditional" love and acceptance.
      (Knowing, of course, that I was telling myself to take a deeper
      look....to find a 'me' that was deeper than material and social

      Acceptance and admiration had before that always been automatic, because
      I was always before 'succeeding' academically, in business,
      materially, socially. When I got off the Track though.... I, for the
      first time, began experiencing my 'unacceptability'. I was finally
      without "power"....no financial power, no sexual power, no social power,
      totally power-less.

      And in that powerlessness I became very angry. Angry because I was not
      'home', and at the same time no longer 'loveable' to man. I began
      essentially "demanding" love and acceptance.

      (Demanding, of course, my own unconditionality.)

      What I'm starting to 'get' now is that as long as I was seeking love, I
      could not experience it....could not taste it. And as long as I felt
      love and acceptance was being denied me, I would keep seeking after it.

      The other day I felt unconditional love and acceptance. I really felt
      it. And I loved it.....for just a short while. Because as soon as I
      felt it, tasted it, wallowed it, bathed in it.....I knew it was not
      And so once again my success has 'failed', and a conversion....a 'turn

      Thank you, HarshaSatsangh and friends for giving me what I asked for,
      even though you knew it wasn't *It*. Thank you all for helping me to
      taste the "failure of success" even faster.


      (To Be Continued)


      _________________________________________"The Three Answers: 'Go
      Anywhere. Do Nothing. Love Everybody." Neem Karoli Baba
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