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Highlights for Wednesday, Feb 16

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  • Melody
    Some highlights of postings from Wednesday, Feb. 16: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MANCHINE wrote: An interesting and difficult question. Without all the
    Message 1 of 1 , Feb 17, 2000
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      Some highlights of postings from Wednesday, Feb. 16:
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MANCHINE wrote:

      An interesting and difficult question. Without all the words that we're
      supposed to say, using the memeory of what it was really like, how did "I
      am
      that I am" feel like to you in its first moments?

      Anybody?


      JERRY:
      Thank you, Dave. It happened when I was seven years old and
      playing with toy cars on the hardwood floor of my bedroom in
      Paterson, New Jersey. I spontaneously uttered, "I Am I Am
      and I Am I Am." The question couldn't be easier to answer.
      Those first moments are always with me. It feels like
      reality. Like waking.

      Now, am I the proud owner of a thousand human frailties and
      shortcomings along with that? Yeah. It's just that reality
      never changes and there is no doubt associated with it, no
      searching, it is being.

      Since 1977, it has been as if there is only one day; that
      comes out of the permanence of the knowing of I AM. But I
      still eat too much junk before I go to sleep and that causes
      nightmares.

      Biology still goes haywire. Like my late wife Dolores said
      more than once, when her body was succumbing to cancer: "I
      can't walk anymore, Jerry. It's kind of funny, isn't it,
      Jerry?"

      She rarely was able to see that clearly, to see the humor in
      the body being born and living and giving forth healthy
      children and then decaying, but she taught me about that
      depth of humor.

      Now when something goes haywire, like my gall bladder or
      something, I say, "It's kinda funny to be in all this pain,
      isn't it, Dolores?" And I laugh with her. "It's kinda funny
      to be running to the E.R., isn't it Dolores?" It eases my
      concern and brings some relief to move from personal concern
      into the bigger picture of love and reality.

      Reality is the same, and that's the feel of I AM. Everything
      else is a joke because it changes.

      ANNIE:
      well Dave, when it first 'hit' me I went into a different
      state for a few weeks... like I was on some weird sort of
      drug... It wasn't easy all the time because it was quite
      intense...

      I also found myself with tears of joy running down my face
      quite a few times a day and was very glad that my desk in
      my office faced away from the door so that noone noticed
      my strange behaviour.

      It was an incredibly exciting thing for me...

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from YOU ARE LOVE:

      [] For most people
      when a conclusion is arrived at they forget about the
      fact that there were so many thousands of other
      possible conclusions if their thoughts had simply
      taken another course than the one it did. Thought
      justifies the particular conclusion reached by its
      reasoning, but it forgets in that justification all
      the other courses the line of reasoning could have
      taken. A person my be very appreciative of the
      subtlety and complexity of the conclusion and this can
      give a false sense of validity.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ROGER:
      Sounds like Moses was a non-dualist. Perhaps the prohibitions against naming
      God are a suggestion that we worship the formless nameless infinite: I AM.

      DAN:
      One becomes what one worships.
      If one worships a thing, one becomes a thing.
      Relinquish the worship of things or persons -
      the Name of the ultimately real cannot be spoken --
      This is clearly the nondual wisdom at the heart
      of the Jewish religion.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      BRUCE:
      "Commandments," edicts come
      from above rather true
      morality welling up from
      within.

      DAN:
      As there ultimately is no inside
      nor outside, "above" is "within" --
      Truth comes from "beyond"
      but is "right here" --

      Moses "came down" with the Commandments
      (going up and coming down is quite
      symbolic, as with Jacob's dream of a ladder),
      saw everyone worshipping the golden calf,
      and immediately broke the commandment
      "thou shalt not kill" by putting
      to death the ones who instituted
      the golden calf worship (a version of a local
      fertility cult).

      It's like the Buddhists have often
      said - when a child needs a toy
      to be satisied, its given a toy.
      When it can deal with Reality,
      a toy (prescription) isn't needed.
      It was said that one cannot see
      YHVH face to face and live.
      Jacob saw YHVH face to face and
      became Israel.

      SAM:
      Perhaps if this were written...

      "It is said that 'a persona' cannot see
      YHVH face to face and live."

      It might be easier to understand what is meant.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MARY:

      Hello everyone, I wrote the following letter to another site earlier, but
      would like your opinion about it if you are interested. Dear ---- I'd like
      to
      hear your opinion regarding compassion.. I've listened to Ken Wapnick's
      tapes
      on True Empathy and I think I understand what he is saying about compassion
      and
      "do-gooders". I've read a few of books that address compassion (Gangaji's
      You
      Are That, for example). I've also heard Carolyn Myss (Energy Anatomy) say
      that
      many if not all of us join each other by using our wounds. She calls this
      "woundology".She says we get stuck in that mode and find intimacy with each
      other through our wounds. She also mentions compassion as a separate thing.
      Isn't compassion, though, a more lofty form of woundology? Aren't we using
      or
      seeing suffering as a way of joining with each other instead of seeing the
      Christ in each of us and join at that level? How do you view compassion? .
      It
      is quite possible that I don't understand what Myss means when she talks of
      woundology. Any ideas? By the way, I'm still trying to find a way to
      post
      this vertically instead of horizontally; I keep getting a message that
      says
      Error Code (E.) after I type in the subject and push return. The only thing
      I
      can then click on is the horiZontal bar; the vertical bar is not dark. I
      know
      this is harder to read.

      GLORIA

      You are only allowed one good question a day!! Yikes!! Look at all the posts
      you
      generated with that I AM question. If only we really could archive
      compassion.
      Mostly it needs to arise in the moment as a response to someone, tho a
      person
      may be more or less predisposed or willing. Here's my understanding of
      "getting
      stuck" in woundology as a sort of permanent response to life. Rather than
      hiding
      or just keeping a stiff upper lip as was formerly expected in society,
      people
      were really encouraged to come forth and disclose "wounds" of the past. Self
      help groups were formed to assist incest survivors, battered women and adult
      children of alcoholics to finally speak up and process their painful
      memories.
      Finally they receive understanding and compassion long denied them. But the
      raft
      to the other shore then becomes like a cruise ship no one wants to leave.
      People
      become addicted to receiving what they see as support and compassion and
      hang on
      for dear life both to the problem and the support groups. If all their
      relationships become centered around this wound, how to move on? All their
      problems are seen as resulting from this wound, forgetting that life is full
      of
      problems for everyone. It's a tricky issue.

      What Myss pointed out so well with this problem, is that IF we define the
      "healed" state as totally the opposite of "needy"...no one ever gets there.
      It
      is seen as some mythical state of always happy and positive, always sure of
      oneself, and never needing anyone or any support. No one ever arrives at
      this
      shangri-la. The timing is obviously very individual and crucial. Has some
      one
      only just begun or are have they made the wound their total identity? At
      some
      point it becomes time to "let the dead bury the dead" and live in the
      present
      moment. People become afraid that by choosing to heal they will lose perhaps
      the
      only way of getting support they have ever found. They can relate to others
      only
      as a wounded person. Learning what "normal" is becomes the next task.

      Compassion is kinda a whole 'nother subject, if you want to look at it apart
      from this woundology concept. Thanks for bringing this up.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      HARSHA:
      re: The Magic Pull

      This vision is mighty because there are no creases in it
      not riddled with curiosity it avoids not tears or laughter
      The slightest meeting of our eyes will surely make you see it
      you might feel the pull of the Heart, before but not after.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JAMES offers a Rumi quote:

      "In truth everything and everyone is a shadow of the Beloved,
      and our seeking is His seeking and our words are His words.
      We search for Him here and there, while looking right at Him.
      Sitting by His side, we ask: "Oh Beloved, where is the Beloved?"
      Enough with such questions.
      Let silence take you to the core of Life.
      All your talk is worthless when compared
      with one whisper of the Beloved."

      -- "God's Whisper, Creation's Thunder," Brian Hines, Threshold

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      GLO introduces us to Theodore Melnechuk:


      SEEING AND BELIEVING

      Cezanne said, "Though the world appears
      Complex, it's made of cubes and spheres,
      Along with cylinders and cones:
      Four fundamentals that, like bones
      In flesh, uphold whatever drapes
      Variety upon their shapes."

      "They're doubly basic," Freud said. "These
      are more than just geometries:
      Your simple solids symbolize
      The organs that attract our eyes;
      The only subject of the arts
      Is men's and women's private parts."

      The body can as well express
      Our sadness and our happiness
      And even sex's mindless dance
      Portrays the spirit's circumstance
      Of oscillation to and fro
      Between the cosmic Yes and No.

      "The world," VanGogh said, "is a face
      In which I see my soul's grimace."
      But has reality become
      Merely emotion's medium?
      O universe of forms, I ask
      Are you a mirror, or a mask?

      __Theodore Melnechuk

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      MARY:

      I've come to accept that I'm the dreamer of the dream or The I Am , but
      now I'm investigating that maybe the dreamer is not real either, and that
      the I Am is an illusion also. Any thoughts? Mary

      HARSHA, SAM, and JERRY respond:


      HARSHA:

      From whom?


      SAM:
      Illusion... is that... which we seem to see.
      Delusion... is that... which we seem to be.
      'Tis all... misunderstood... Whole-ography*.
      'Tis all just Divine*... that we see... and be.

      * = whatever word the reader chooses.


      JERRY:

      See The Nisargadatta Song of I AM
      http://www.nonduality.com/iam.htm
      and The Nisargadatta Song of Beyond I AM
      http://www.nonduality.com/beyond.htm

      I believe, the highest spiritual truth is maya, although I
      could be wrong. It could actually be the highest spiritual
      truth.

      JAN:

      You could be right, Jerry. Maya is only maya for the "I"
      (LOL). Those, healed from the "I" disease will immediately
      recognize the following from the gospel of Thomas,
      irrespective of background (Buddhist, Hindu, Islam etc. or
      even atheist):

      Ode 1

      1 The Lord is on my head like a crown, and I shall not be
      without Him. 2 They wove for me a crown of truth, and it
      caused thy branches to bud in me. 3 For it is not like a
      withered crown which buddeth not: but thou livest upon my
      head, and thou hast blossomed upon my head. 4 Thy fruits are
      full-grown and perfect, they are full of thy salvation.

      also from JAN:

      Hermes Trismegistus gives some "explanation" on maya ceasing
      to be perceived as maya:
      --------------
      [...]
      Keep it not, father, back from me. I am a true-born son;
      explain to me the manner of Rebirth.

      Hermes: What may I say, my son? I can but tell thee this.
      Whene'er I see within myself the Simple Vision brought to
      birth out of God's mercy, I have passed through myself into a
      Body that can never die. And now i am not as I was before; but
      I am born in Mind.

      The way to do this is not taught, and it cannot be seen by the
      compounded element by means of which thou seest.

      Yea, I have had my former composed form dismembered for me. I
      am no longer touched, but I have touch; I have dimension too;
      and [yet] am I a stranger to them now.

      Thou seest me with eyes, my son; but what I am thou dost not
      understand [even] with fullest strain of body and of sight.
      [...]

      http://www.gnosis.org/library/hermes13.html

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas:
      52) His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in
      Israel. and they all spoke of you."

      He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your
      presence, and have spoken of the dead."


      ROGER asks:

      When he says "in your presence" he must mean the knowledge "I AM" within
      the one hearing/reading the words?


      JAN responds:

      No, only that apart from God, nothing is alive. Compare this with a
      statement by Gurdieff:

      A considerable percentage of the people we meet on the street are people
      who are empty inside, that is, they are actually already dead. It is
      fortunate for us that we do not see and do not know it. If we knew what a
      number of people are actually dead and what a number of these dead people
      govern our lives, we should go mad with horror.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      JERRY:

      I read Arjuna Nick Ardagh's new book, How About Now? Satsang
      with Arjuna. He's in the lineage of Ramana and Papaji, but
      he speaks for himself. You don't get the feeling Arjuna's
      trying to be someone else or to speak as though he were
      those guys.

      A lot of people are familiar with Arjuna's first book,
      Relaxing Into Clear Seeing. I hear it recommended all the
      time. How About Now? is another book that will push people
      to the next level.

      Here's an excerpt or two that I really like:

      "In the 1960's, when (spiritual) teachers first arrived,
      there was no way for us to have direct realization. It was
      next to impossible. You could listen to the right words and
      repeat them verbatim, but it was not possible until a few
      years ago to sit firmly in the realization that 'I am
      awareness, infinite and eternal.' Such realizations were not
      happening for ordinary Westerners, or at most very
      fleetingly. The consciousness began to shift in our culture
      in this decade, in the 1990's. Now, if we seek out teachings
      of awakening, they are mostly being shared by ordinary
      Westerners -- people just like you and me. There are very
      few Indian teachers left. These days, spiritual teachers of
      note ... are all Western people. There is a new generation
      now, and it is all up to us. The good news is that if this
      shift from the identification with form to being
      formlessness itself can happen to an ordinary Western person
      with children, a bank balance and the rest of it, it can
      happen to you, too. There is really no reason left for
      anyone to be a seeker."
      -------------------------------------------

      Question: Is it merely a coincidence that Awakening and the
      coming demise of seeking, parallel the growth of the
      Internet? It's a side question that some of us may care to
      ponder. Clearly the Internet plays a role. Without the
      Internet, it might be asked, would Awakenings spread so
      quickly and broadly?

      Here's some more from How About Now?:

      -----------------------------------------------

      "You could come up with the most extreme reason why you
      think that you can't have this awakening right now: 'Well, I
      get irritated with my kids.' So do I. 'Well, I get anxious
      about my financial situation.' So do I. 'Well, when I
      haven't had enough sleep, I get grouchy.' So do I.

      "None of this is as it seems to the mind. It has nothing to
      do with changing anything at all. There is nothing wrong
      with trying to improve things...(but)...The personality can
      be fairly neurotic and still this realization is absolutely
      available to you.... There is a way that whatever is
      happening in your life, including the worst, can become an
      invitation to go even deeper into wakefulness. Suffering is
      probably the best way to reach depths of understanding.
      Suffering cuts attachment. This is profoundly good news.
      This is the time right now...when there can be widespread
      awakening."
      -------------------------------------------------------

      TWO OM's UP!!

      I'll quote more from the book later. Andrew Macnab and I,
      topping off a five hour 'lunch' replete with good food,
      cigars, and wine (but no women, the massage parlor was
      closed [laughter]) watched an Arjuna Satsang video. It was
      good stuff. We liked it because Arjuna is a straight-shooter
      and he made sense to us. He cuts right to the bone, while
      being gentle and humorous. We give the video, entitled
      Beyond Flinching, Two OM's Up.

      Here's Arjuna's website:

      http://www.livingessence.com

      Jerry
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      < Papaji when asked about
      those he sent to teach said that many people can fool
      other people into thinking they are liberated. He had
      some other very strong words to say about that. >

      XAN:

      ~ Here's another Papaji story on this topic:
      A student came to Papaji and said, "Some people who have been here in
      Lucknow
      with you have gone back to their countries and are telling everyone they are
      enlightened. Papaji laughed his lion's laugh and said, "Well, that's better
      than saying they are not enlightened!"

      What i want to know, you who are love, is what possible difference could it
      make to you in the intimacy of your awakening, what state of purity of
      consciousness someone else is or is not?

      As my friend often said "Your own enlightenment is none of your business,
      how
      could anyone else's be?"

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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