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NDhighlights for Wednesday, January 19, 2000

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  • Old Hag
    ~~This is oh s first time at Highlights so have taken liberties. Now don t be calling the ACLU on a helpless old woman! __________________________ Dan Trying
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 20, 2000
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      ~~This is oh's first time at Highlights so have taken liberties. Now
      don't be calling the ACLU on a helpless old woman!


      Dan Trying To Explain Very Simply To Michael About Not Using Words

      M: If we are to stop using words to define concepts, to understand our
      life and our existence..... why is this list here?

      D: We are not to do something, such as stopping using words to define
      concepts. Seeing beyond and through concepts is "primal seeing" where
      knowing is being, and what is known is no "other". Such seeing is
      "already the case".

      Taking your question as "why are words exchanged here if "That" is
      beyond any of the words?" : Words are exchanged as love, as a form of
      touching, as gesture from "here" to "there", knowing that "there is
      already here" and gestures are manifesting Love itself, in Itself. Other
      reasons why: curiosity, to confirm, to assert, to display doubts, etc.

      Without words all posts�would be empty.

      D: If seeing is now beyond words,
      �all posts are empty, as are all
      �perceptions "within" space-time.
      �Such emptiness is simply "nowness".
      �Nothing needs to be done.
      �Space-time events apparently "unfold"
      �as pure nowness, and nowness is
      �ever undisturbed.

      M: Please help me to understand.

      D: It is obvious from your posts that
      ����you will receive as you give -
      ����from who you are. This is already the
      ����case and needs no "help". Nonetheless,
      ����a response to your query:
      �����Understanding comes from "who I am".
      ����"Who I am" and "Who You Are" is
      �����originally, essentially, truly
      �����"not-two" - appearances don't
      �����disrupt this "primary not-twoness".
      >>>The appearance of a
      �����"believing mind" that exists
      ������in this body or that body seems
      ������to obscure. Therefore, relinquishing
      ������beliefs appears to be useful
      ������in this "understanding" you
      ������ask for help with - an
      ������understanding that has no
      ������objects, and thus is not "other"
      ������than this immediately here -
      ������(with no objects, it has no space,
      �������so where "else" could It be?)
      ������Only beliefs/perceptions create
      ������the impression of any "something
      ������other" than That which is always >>>>already the
      case (no-thingness).
      ������-- Love --

      Roger Replies to Petros Also About Words But With a Berry Twist

      P: Yes, you raise a very valid point, I think. It is indeed important to
      address the particular needs of individuals, as you note.

      R: A favorite example about this:
      Imagine you are eating a strawberry and someone is sitting with you who
      has never tasted a strawberry. Is there any way that you can transfer
      the essence of your taste experience verbally to your friend? No way!

      This points out how concepts & words always fail to capture essence. The
      written or even spoken word is always very limited because information
      content is lost when the boundless experience is reduced into concept,
      and then more information is lost when the concept is reduced into word.

      Most or all of us on the quest rely, at first, on information from
      various Sages. But we have to _realize_ (pun intended!) that this
      information is very limited. At some point we have to take this earnest
      search for the Ultimate Reality beyond reliance on authority, even the
      beyond the inward authority of our own memory & past experience.

      If I had to choose one word to describe this process for me it would be:
      stillness. The title of one of Barry Long's books: "Stillness is the
      Way". But while advertising that book I should probably say that I like
      "Meditation: A Foundation Course" better. And because there are many
      different approaches to Spirit, I'd expect that only a percentage of
      people will share my particular interest.


      Phil Expreses His Allergy to Berry Verboseness

      P: I am lately getting the unmistakable impression that the purpose of
      all this "nonduality talk" is to induce vomiting. Most of it is truly
      indigestible. Perhaps that's the point: the Wordless.

      After hurling: great Peace. ;)


      Jan and Neo on Love - Where's Phil?

      J: When love is, "I" is not; this is probably the most frequent
      experience that yet escapes attention.

      N: Love is the core of I. All is love.


      Larry With a Link to the Yoga Sutra Translated by a Stripper, Bruce with
      a Surprise Answer

      L: If you've never read the "Yoga Sutra" here's your chance:

      It's the stripped down version. It usually comes with commentaries. The
      translation is interesting; by someone named BonGiovanni. Anyone know
      anything about him?

      B: Believe it or not, he's a
      Sai Baba devotee (if it's
      the same person I know of).

      Petros With a Church For the Rest Of Us


      Ed's Note: Lots of Laughs

      Terry With A Suzuki Quote

      A short excerpt from "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind," by Shunryu Suzuki,

      ����According to traditional buddhist understanding, our human
      nature is without ego. When we have no idea of ego, we have Buddha's
      view of life. Our egoistic ideas are delu- sion, covering our buddha
      nature. We are always creating and following them, and in repeating this
      process over and over again, our life becomes completely occupied by
      ego- centered ideas. This is called karmic life, or karma. The Buddhist
      life should not be karmic life. The purpose of our practice is to cut
      off the karmic spinning mind. If you are trying to attain enlightenment,
      that is a part of karma, you are creating and being driven by karma, and
      you are wasting your time on your black cushion. According to Bodhi-
      dharma's understanding, practice based on any gaining idea is just a
      repetition of your karma. Forgetting this point, many later Zen masters
      have emphasized some stage to be attained by practice.


      Jan Comes Out of Samadhi To Describe It to Larry - Harsha Comes Out of
      Samadhi To Agree With Jan

      J: It can't be clear to everyone; it is to those who experienced
      samadhi. Nirvikalpa samadhi and deep, dreamless sleep have in common
      that there are no thoughts, no sense-experiences. The difference is that
      in nirvikalpa samadhi, only awareness is whereas in deep dreamless sleep
      the awareness is veiled. It is possible for all veils to dissolve, or to
      be awake independent of the vicissitudes of mind-body. In practice this
      means the mind-body has undergone adaptations as not to veil awareness
      in any way. The label "adaptations" can be exchanged with transformation
      or transfiguration but it refers to the same.

      H: The relationship between the sleeping, dreaming, and the waking state
      is discussed in depth in Advaita Vedanta. The purpose of such an enquiry
      is to discover the underlying continuity of consciousness in all states
      of experience.
      Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a yogic samadhi beyond visions and various
      savikalpa samadhis as only pure awareness without an object or a
      reference point remains. Ramana Maharshi has extensively addressed
      questions of various samadhis and Kundalini Shakti and their role from a
      Jnana perspective.
      "Be As You Are" is an excellent compilation of Sri Ramana's
      conversations by David Godman in which various topics are categorized in
      individual chapters. There is a chapter on samadhis and Kundalini Shakti
      as well. I highly recommend that book along with the classics (Talks
      with Ramana Maharshi and Day by Day with Bhagwan).
      Probably any book with Ramana's words in it will do.


      Nora Offers an Innocent Non-Poem About Splashing Around and Starts All
      Kinds of Trouble:

      N: not a "poem", simply a statement of where i am today
      Floundering and lost in a sea of fantasies and Fear I am about to go
      When over the horizon appears
      The Great Island of LOVEIAM
      Swimming toward it i find the entrance to the harbor Is well protected
      by impenetrable(to me ) barriers I begin to swim around the island and
      find A large tree of Self Inquiry hanging over the edge of a low cliff
      Grasping the lowest branch i am able

      To pull myself to the edge of the cliff

      I am safe
      (until i fall off the cliff into the damn sea again!) � � � �

      Lynne: Have you learned the backstroke yet?

      Judi: It's not a matter of trying to kid yourself somehow into having a
      good time when you know you're really not. Get real. That's just digging
      yourself in deeper. But, after a while, as you keep suffering, and
      beating your head against the wall, it does start to wear out, and you
      start to get tired, perhaps a little goofy even. But then is the time
      for some real insight, NOT for falling off into goofiness and more

      Bring all your courage and intelligence to bare and start taking a look
      at what you are doing and see what this 'suffering' is all about -- how
      you are creating it yourself. Courage and insight. Get to the bottom of

      Nora: many thanks for your sincere message which i am pondering.. but
      wallowing in fear is not the way to examine myself so the self inquiry
      (which is what i am doing today--have no idea about tomorrow) keeps me
      on an even keel and allows me to look within--god knows i am anything
      but "happy"--something so terrible is happening to one of my kids, that
      i've just gotta keep out of that ocean of fear and churning, churning,
      churning, so i can be calm and a help, not a hindrance.

      Ed Note: Stay tuned.

      Gloria Responds to Jan and Skye About Fears on Spiritual Path, Reveals
      Experience That Was "No Big Deal"

      I wonder if the fear of losing all of this, consciousness,
      identification, even life itself is not the reason so many use death as
      a descriptive word for such experiences. I mean we all rather easily
      give up consciousness in order to go to sleep, but this fear of union
      feels such a real plunge into the unknown...anything might happen,
      anything seems possible.

      Something like this happened to me back in '83, long before I had any
      knowledge of eastern religions or meditation states and it was
      bewildering and frightening to me. Mostly because I could not stay
      awake, so it was this obliteration of consciousness that Skye mentions.
      That translates into the fear of giving up control kind of automatically
      for me. I considered myself a Christian, tho a very ordinary, mostly
      below average one.

      Although I had my experience in the context of an intense longing for
      God and I cannot after the fact account for any reason to have assumed
      union might result in death, it just felt that way at the time. This
      immense presence
      was simply present, and along with love and awe and surprise I felt
      considerable fear. I know that ego goes into panic mode at the very
      notion of surrendering one's will... when it seems really possible to
      happen and imminent. I also had a thought of how it would mean
      abandoning my children if I died. The last thought I remember having was
      sorta like, "Well, if you can't trust God, who would you trust?"
      And then there really was some obliteration of consciousness and no idea
      of time, then next I was like..well, what do you know..I am still
      here..and the funny thing was I didn't feel strongly one way or the
      other about this result.. sorta relieved to have survived it, seemed
      like I had misplaced my will and ego and couldn't find them for a while.
      I did feel very much at peace and more loving than usual,
      but not especially blissful or thrilled like I would have anticipated,
      more like I had been struck by lightening, been thru a shock. More than
      love, I experienced this immense power and it simply was not like
      anything I might have imagined or wanted.
      Over the next several weeks, my will and ego gradually made a comeback
      to normal ..and this seemed regrettable to me, tho not much I could do
      about it. It had been actually easier living without strong preferences
      one way or the other and just going about taking care of my kids, I
      didn't mind anything cause it was all the same to me, not boring same
      but equally fine.

      My senses were sharper and the beauty of everything struck me, but that
      is a familiar state brought on in me by gratitude. The main surprise to
      me in the long run was that this didn't automatically change me
      that much... (I kept hoping...) and out of fear of bringing it on again,
      I gave up for some time the silent prayer thing I had been doing. No way
      did I want to repeat this anytime soon, not that I would have had a clue

      It was a couple years before I found someone it felt ok to talk with
      about this experience. Partly I worried people would think I was plain
      nuts either way, if I claimed to have some real encounter with God or
      chalked it up to a panic attack type thing.

      Partly since I didn't understand it myself, especially how it happened,
      but I mostly didn't want just anyone's interpretation. The only frame of
      reference I had back then for anything like this was it was either a
      temporary accident, an unusual mental fantasy I brought on by somehow
      being too intense or some kinda mystical thing, like those Catholic
      saints I'd read about, and I sure am no saint.. but either way I wasn't
      going to risk telling anyone.

      I was still glad it happened even if I
      couldn't make any sense out of it and eventually decided it didn't
      matter what caused it and it didn't need a label..life goes on. If
      anything, it illustrates how totally unprepared our culture is to help
      us understand such experiences...at least it was then from where I was
      in it. It wasn't until I ran across the book Spiritual
      Emergency about 6 years later, that I found information about other
      people having similar events. I wish I had a teacher then to just say it
      was no big deal, keep meditating.

      Identification is possible as long as there are feelings. Confrontation
      with suffering evokes compassion despite absence of "I" and the "fact"
      or "knowledge" that there are no "others". The "I" thought is but one
      identification, "I" as the doer, enjoyer, sufferer etc.; the "me" meme.
      The "I" thought has everything to do with emotional memory. Pure
      awareness has no feelings, perhaps that much is clear - what isn't clear
      is that the mind-body doesn't have to interfere with that in any way.
      Which is possible, when all "conditionals" have been transferred to
      "memory for events", only to be recalled when required. This includes
      "conditionals" like breathing.


      Jan and Dan Getting Hot With Each Other

      J: The wraps do have a nasty property though: they will only burn one
      after another and each time a wrap has been completely burnt, one thinks
      "this is
      �it" and of course it is, but "with" the next wrap... So the fire has
      to extinguish by itself, when all wraps have been burnt.

      D: An apt description of the nature of temporal experiencing. Like many
      of your other metaphors - starkly beautiful in its
      solitude and stillness - burning away as an empty fire.

      Another Response (Influenced by the 70's Every Popular ..
      lalala...Feelings.... ...oh,oh,oh...Feelings....lalala) to Dan:

      Identification is possible as long as there are feelings. Confrontation
      with suffering evokes compassion despite absence of "I" and the "fact"
      or "knowledge" that there are no "others". The "I" thought is but one
      identification, "I" as the doer, enjoyer, sufferer etc.; the "me" meme.
      The "I" thought has everything to do with emotional memory. Pure
      awareness has no feelings, perhaps that much is clear - what isn't clear
      is that the mind-body doesn't have to interfere with that in any way.
      Which is possible, when all "conditionals" have been transferred to
      "memory for events", only to be recalled when required. This includes
      "conditionals" like breathing.

      Ed's note: Thank God!

      Terry Blasts With Suzuki Again:

      "Everything is perfect, but there are a lot of improvements to be made."


      David Quoted 84 - 84! Profound Passages from the Tao Te Ching, Known For
      Its Succinct Wisdom. One is Below.

      When beauty is abstracted
      Then ugliness has been implied;
      When good is abstracted
      Then evil has been implied.
      So alive and dead are abstracted from nature,
      Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,
      Long and short abstracted from contrast, High and low abstracted from
      Song and speech abstracted from melody, After and before abstracted from

      The sage experiences without abstraction, And accomplishes without
      He accepts the ebb and flow of things,
      Nurtures them, but does not own them,
      And lives, but does not dwell.


      And, Finally, Dan and Terry Engaged in a Very Long Exciting Discussion
      on Karma and Love, Very Little of Which oh's C&P Could Retain. Below is
      All That Came Forth From ControlV.

      D: Karma

      T: Love

      D: --Love--

      T. Aloha



      _________________________________________"While alive be dead,
      Thoroughly dead...All is good then, Whatever you may do." Bunan
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