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NDS digest for Sunday, June 20

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  • Melody
    Nondual Digest - for Sunday, June 20, 1999: To join the Nonduality Salon please go to
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 21, 1999
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      Nondual Digest - for Sunday, June 20, 1999:

      To join the Nonduality Salon please go to
      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon>
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      The nondual state is the natural state. And then by age
      3 the dual state
      appears to be natural. The memory of the nondual lingers to one or
      another measure. It calls.

      Following pursuit of that call, the nondual state again becomes known as
      the natural.

      If life is about anything, that's what it seems to be about. That chase.
      My brother Rick called it the runaway horse. Even being still and doing
      nothing is part of that chase.

      Riding that horse to the source of its call is the activity of
      enlightenment. Because that ride is not met with the friction of
      experience or mind it appears as though nothing is happening and all is
      still. But there is a most subtle movement, while at the same time being
      huge.

      Jerry
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      > From: John La Grou

      > Truth. What is
      > truth.. What IS truth?


      Jan:
      A word.

      A quilt of one's own weaving?

      There is no such thing as "own".



      > A universal absolute?


      An absolutely nothing.


      An artificial construct to be
      > transcended, or reality to be unified with?


      Nothing to construct, nothing to transcend and nothing to unify with.


      > A divorce,
      > or wedding feast?


      No feeling or event whatsoever.



      > Is truth the absence or fulfillment
      > of such concepts?



      No absence without (former) presence and no fulfillment without desire.


      > Is it freedom from the strife of
      > self-work towards liberation, or found in the cultivation?


      Some "realizers" acquired freedom from suffering, grief, hunger, thirst,
      pain etc. but this has nothing to do with "truth". There is neither bondage
      nor liberation and what is cultivated will become barren again.


      >
      > Is truth encased in all above, or free to soar in
      > boundless abandon?



      What can be encased can be disclosed and what is free can be caught again.


      > Is truth reflected in every path,
      > or do some paths meander into to truth-barren peril
      > -- echoing Tim's sentiment above?


      What can be reflected can be seen and what can be seen can be felt.
      No feeling or event whatsoever.



      > Is truth jb's vacuum
      > in a bottle?


      The vacuum in the bottle is the vacuum out of the bottle. No more, no less.


      > Or his ale?


      That will depend on consumption.


      > Is truth ==Gene Poole's== UFOs?


      In the plural, that's unlikely even if Gene can create parallel universes.
      Better ask him.


      > Or his blessed vulnerability? Is it Petros's angst? Or
      > Tim Harris's gentle love?


      No feeling or event whatsoever.


      > Is truth in the seeking, the seeker, or the sought?


      What if truth only IS; can it be sought, found, lost or thought?


      > Can truth be said, or does this become one of endless
      > pointings and noddings born from "feelings," Skye extols,
      > of "certainty."


      No feeling or event whatsoever. Certainty is born from uncertainty and what
      is born will certainly die.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Jerry:

      To integrate means to make whole or to unify. I find that such
      integration, in my life, requires constant work and it is the work of
      awareness of what I am doing. It doesn't mean I'm always honest, civil,
      pure and decent. No. And I'm not. It does mean I am aware of what I am
      doing and of my feelings, even though my doings and my feelings may be
      erratic, nervous, or lazy.

      When I talk about the work of awareness, I don't mean that awareness is
      a ticket to do whatever anyone wants. The proper awareness corrects that
      which leads to a breakdown of integrity, even if it may not correct that
      breakdown once and for all.

      What is the proper awareness? That is a good question, and I leave it
      with the reader.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      >If someone asked you what it is to know the nondual perspective, what
      would you say?


      (Gene Poole):

      I would say this:

      "I am not qualified...

      "I experience now, not as before, this entirity, this entire universe, as
      my living self.

      "I am myself in myself; I am myself having myself.

      "This whole universe, is myself,and it comes to me to engulf me; I am
      engulfed, I am engulfing myself in grace. Thus engulfed, I abide.

      "There is no detail which I am not, I am it, dream or otherwise, as can be
      construed, any and all of it, right now, without condition and without
      reservation, or with conditions and reservations, as it is, and as it may
      be.

      "I do not qualify myself; there is literally nothing to qualify myself
      against, but myself.

      "Some of my voices insist that I am not it, that I do not know myself as
      myself, that if I were to know myself that then I would not know myself as
      myself, that there would be no knower to know. But I am that knower, and I
      do know, and I do know myself, and I am all of it, and those are my voices
      telling me that I do not know, and this is my voice saying that I do know.
      Only the knower knows, and I am that knower; I know of knowing and of not
      knowing.

      "Knowing abiding, I abide not knowing, and in abiding, I know.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Rebecca offers:

      "Truth disappears with the telling of it. It can only be conveyed, not
      stated."

      Got this from Coming to Our Senses by Morris Berman. I've been chewing on it
      for awhile.


      Rebecca
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      zero:

      from a nondualist perspective, the act of helping does not attach any
      personal judgement at all. spend three nights a week at a soup kitchen, and
      the nondualist does not say "what a good boy am i." it's not good and not
      bad. it is an ultra-spontaneous reaching out, as would be done for a
      friend who is stumbling or falling.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gurdjieff has a parable which is called the parable of the
      carriage, horse, driver. This may and I sure it does come
      from some other tradition. Gurdjieff was an eclectic.

      The carriage is the body, the horse is the emotions and the
      driver is the mind. This is the lower emotions and the lower
      intellectual center. The master (or real I) rides in the carriage.
      Most of the time the driver is in the tavern getting drunk on
      consensus reality and there is a false master in the carriage.
      The horse is running wild and the carriage hasn't been oiled
      or maintained in years. The most important part of the
      parable for me recently is what part does the shaft (moving
      center) play which
      connects the carriage (instinctual center) with the horse and
      what part do the reins play which connect the horse with
      the driver? There is no direct physical connection between
      the mind and the Master but the driver can hear the passenger
      if he has ears to hear.

      Marcia

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      > >Where are the responsibility and compassion in
      > >nondualism?

      It is the highest possible compassion to annihilate both the object and the
      subject of compassion.

      Petros

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      In terms of
      mailing lists and newsgroups, regardless of the intention of the writer, the
      email or message shows up in ones mailbox completely neutral. You do not
      even have the handwriting to point towards the good 'intention' of the
      writer. Therefore, any meaning, understanding, nuance, essence, message,
      flame etc.. that you gleen from it or read into it is 'purely' your own.
      This is the refining process of truth that, as far as I can see, is
      'perpetual' in nature. It is the 'becoming' nature of 'being'.

      Soon, you find that enemies now seem comfortably familiar and friends are
      all but silent. In reality, through our arguments and influence, all that we
      have acheived is speaking the same language (although, once in a while our
      accent shows... lol.) and none of us have changed our view, only our
      'selfs'. Ultimately, the agreement we reach is based in the fact that,
      'indeed', from the start we were all saying the same thing. Maturity, or
      perhaps 'riping' of the fruit is a better word here, leads us to a 'peaceful
      mindfulness'.

      Gentle Peace.

      Tim Harris

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Melody:

      From my perspective, we understand and accept
      each other just fine. It's our 'reactions' to
      the other that is hard sometimes to face....so
      we don't, and instead settle into the thoughts that
      we don't understand or accept the 'other'.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      It seems to me, and I don't mind a bit being
      wrong here, that the key to a nondual perspective
      is the lack of 'entanglement'. And however any
      of us choose to free ourselves of those entanglements
      is a-ok. After all is said and done, what does
      it matter?

      Melody

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Elly wrote:

      So, "what is truth." Truth is holding the cup so your sick father can
      drink. Truth is the smell of peonies. Truth is lips in the dark. AND truth
      is liquid pure thought and crystaline realizations which, once living, get
      pinned like butterflies on a board by being approximated in language. Such
      treatment is necessary (I think) to aid people in recognizing those
      butterflies, but once that's accomplished, we should cut the usage of
      formalin and mounting pins to a minimum.

      This work is work. Not thought alone but action and attention and choice.
      Endlessly demanding. The effects are spiritual, but the practice (at least
      my practice) consists of a framework of physical actions. Sit at certain
      times. Write a journal. Shower often, pay attention to getting enough
      exercise. Rest often. Attend to others. Give thanks, aloud if possible.
      Avoid other influences, liquor and negative people and the TV news and
      politics.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Glo offered
      from her "oldies but goodies" file:

      originally posted on 9/29/98 by Harsha
      Offered again due to the topic


      Harsha:
      The non-dual state (call it Self or No Self or something beyond either of
      those, etc.) contains within it Absolute Certainty, not as a part of it, but
      simply as That Which Is. When Gurus speak of different states or stages of
      Realization (Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and beyond), it seems to me that they are
      caught in the trap of the mind which is easily fascinated by the trivial
      and the
      superficial. The Total and Radical Abiding in the Absolute Being does not
      allow
      for such differences. If there is still something left to go Beyond or
      Transcend
      then Realization/Recognition of the Absolute is not Clear and Steady. The Self
      Realized person sees his/her own mind as a particular type of condition
      arising
      out of the Absolute and is at ease with that condition.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      zero:

      as i'm following a thread, i'm
      interpreting it from my own experiences. i try to express myself, i try to
      hear others. but do we really communicate? the nature of the thread makes
      it even more difficult. it's as if you walked in in the middle of "my
      movie." i shall bear in mind that i'm not the only one in the theatre here
      in "real time." i know that the most amazing communication is when i can
      look into someone's eyes and see the cosmos. we don't have to speak. even
      that is limited by my senses. words are limits. words can try to name my
      experience. i dunno, i spent the afternoon sitting on a country road with
      two ostriches. perhaps the kind of days i have contribute to my sometimes
      absurdity.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Bruce:

      There is nothing "we" can
      "annihilate" -- what does
      disappear is a pattern of
      thoughts, mere neural
      energy, a "notion" that
      assumes the seperateness
      of "subject" and "object,"
      observer and observed.
      The whole encompasses the
      fragments sans the
      labels -- or even with the
      labels, which are also
      seen as the whole. It is
      the most complete sentence
      of all, whether parsed or
      otherwise.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      "Jerry M. Katz" wrote:

      > There's always room to become a better person. I don't know how nondual
      > that is. It's just practical. It helps one get along with all kinds of
      > people and become more effective, if being effective is what a person is
      > called to do.
      >

      Good point Jerry. I see being a 'better person' as being an expression of
      the nondual nature. I have embraced the idea that the I AM is the 'singular'
      state of being and becoming. It is the argument. By 'being' better and
      focusing on 'becoming' better I set my path to a postive outcome. How long
      will the fruits of this path take to ripen? Doesn't matter as long as the
      course has been set. The rest of the journey is on 'auto pilot' and it will
      be what it will be.... by being 'what is'. Perhaps I did not select a path
      of 'perfection', I am very flawed you know, but I believe that I have
      selected the 'right' path by choosing to learn goodness, kindness,
      cultivating the virtues of the Eightfold Path (buddihism), etc... in hopes
      of finding the Fruits of the Spirit as listed in the Bible (Gal 5:22)... to
      the ultimate realization of 'gentle peace'.

      Regards.

      Tim Harris

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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