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NDH-Tue-Jan 18

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  • Jerry M. Katz
    Taking wisdom from the messenger and taking the messenger are two different things. How many texts and how many thoughts of wisdom and clarity have I avoided
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 19, 2000
      Taking wisdom from the messenger and taking the messenger
      are two different things. How many texts and how many
      thoughts of wisdom and clarity have I avoided because the
      package it came in did not measure up to my idea of what the
      package should look like.And how much bullshit have I
      accepted because it came in a package I recognized, found
      familiar and therefore trusted. So, I would ask you
      this......if the passage had not come with the [familiar]
      tag line ...then how would you have responded to the

      --Kristi Shelloner

      Life as I have grown to know it may be an illusion. It is
      sad to think that "my" life is an illusion. Is it any
      wonder there are so many depressed, angry, hurting,
      suffering people in the world? I for one hope that, while I
      am here on this planet that I remain a feeling person who
      has compassion for other feeling persons, whether they are
      enlightened or not... especially if they are not. What
      good is spirituality if you can't integrate it into your
      life? Isn't that what the Christian churches have been
      accused of. Going to church on Sunday praying for love and
      forgiveness, instead of practicing it everyday.

      When we put labels on people we put them in a box, and
      suffocate them. We can open the box and allow them to
      breathe the same air we breathe.
      Their view of duality, nonduality should have no bearing on
      how we see them as an integral part of life...this life that
      we are living now, in this present moment.

      We can live forgiving love, compassion, and understanding to
      others because we have learned to give those things to
      ourselves. We all deserve to be accepted, acknowledged and
      heard. How good it feels to feel accepted for who I am,
      acknowledged as a person of worth, and listened to, not
      necessarily agreed with, just listened to.

      L isten
      O bserve
      V alidate
      E xpress

      Listen to me, really listen to my thoughts and feelings.
      Observe that I am real, not just an "illusion".
      V alidate my existence in some fashion.
      E xpress your thoughts and feelings to let me know you are

      We can study all the ancient scriptures, get into lengthy
      intellectual debates about who has more wisdom, who has
      experienced this or that, but the bottom line is that we
      have to put our faith on the line each and every moment of
      our life. This is done through integration of spiritual
      principles into everyday life.

      When an angry person gets in your face and calls you a nasty
      dirty lowdown ********, what will your response be?

      Bottom Line:

      Love yourself.
      Love others.
      Judge Not.
      We all want to be:
      Accepted Acknowledged Heard

      The greatest gift we can give someone is our time...our
      presence is the greatest present.

      --Michael Johnson

      More from Timothy Schoorel's book....

      Enlightenment is not an attainment to be proud of. You just
      know that you are very lucky to have found freedom, you know
      that you could have missed it.
      Truth is never an achievement, it has always been there, it
      is just that now your eyes are open to it. Enlightenment is
      a deep understanding, it is not an ego thing at all.
      Understanding is possible thanks to our intelligent nature,
      it is not my or your accomplishment. What have you
      attained? It's more like you've given away that which was
      never yours!

      To be enlightened means that you know truth. It means that
      you know your true identity, which is not an identity as
      such, because truth is universal, not personal. The joke of
      enlightenment is that you are not an enlightened person.
      There is enlightenment when, as a person, you are
      gone...There is realization, but not a realized person.
      Because the whole idea of "I, a separate person" has
      disappeared. Of course, you live your life as an
      individual, as an undivided being, but now you understand
      your absolute nature. You know that you are absolute
      consciousness, not a separate being, not separate

      Enlightenment means that truth has become so close and
      familiar that it is now your residency. And whatever
      happens in your life, you will not leave your wall-free


      --contributed by Judi Rhodes

      Kristi: And in each moment of clarity comes the insight..."I
      need do nothing."

      Judi: Yeah, I used to tell myself that too, until I couldn't
      take it anymore.

      Jody: ...there is no need at all to believe in "higher
      realms" or "ascended masters".

      Judi: HELP!!! I've ascended and I can't get down!! :-)

      Hi, this is my first post to this group. I did TM for a
      decade or more, for the last decade I've focused on the
      Gyana Yoga/discriminative approach for example J.R.
      Krishnamurti. Please visit my web site www.newu.org, the
      work of my departed friend Edward Tarabilda, who's passion
      was articulating a multi-dimensional approach to Spirit.
      Also, I recently attended a two week seminar by Barry Long
      in Oz ( I live in Littleton, CO, USA)
      www.barrylong.org.uk and I find him very inspiring.
      --Roger Isaacs

      Dear NDS and HarshaSatsangh,

      Because of the recent threads on gurus and charismatic
      paths, I talked to a very good and experienced friend of
      mine, Michael Rosker, about these approaches. (NOTE:
      Michael is not on NDS or HarshaSatsangh but does browse the
      web). He had about 15 years' sincere and devoted experience
      in various charismatic and bhakti paths, and later, came to
      the advaita/non-dualist path. I asked Michael to offer some
      insights based on his long experience.
      In a nutshell, he says that these paths, as they are
      sometimes practiced in the U.S., *can* involve certain
      excesses that harm someone's self-esteem, and might even
      depend on a previous lack of self-esteem in the new

      Since Michael pretty much hit just the high points in his
      essay below, I'll fill in some details. He began the
      spiritual search in the late 70's because of health
      problems. Over the years, he has been a very faithful
      devotee of at least 4 famous schools with charismatic
      leaders. He also spent time with a few individual gurus,
      while not as charismatic as other teachers, nevertheless
      combine a bit of advaita philosophy with bhakti practices
      and psychotherapeutic recommendations, or sometimes, just
      plain psychological manipulation. During this time, about a
      decade-and-a-half, he experimented, doing things like:

      -all kind of diets: ayurvedic, macrobiotic, yogic, raw
      foods, blood-type, vegan, vegetarianism, high-protein

      -banging his left shoe on the ground to make the spiritual
      or physical problem go away

      -stopping having sex with his wife

      -on retreats, digging 4-foot holes in frozen ground in
      mid-winter, then immediately filling them back up

      -meditating 6 hours a day

      -chanting several thousand rounds a day to a personal, very
      human guru

      -never seeing the sun except on his way to work

      -losing about 50 pounds (now he's healthier than ever, but
      still skinny!)

      For Michael himself, most of the time on these paths, he was
      miserable, angry, or depressed. But for the last 2 years,
      he has been investigating non-dualism. This started when he
      met a teacher who talked to him person-to-person, as a peer,
      as though nothing needed fixing, acknowledging that he's not
      a child, not broken, etc. With this great shot in the arm,
      Michael's investigation continued until it came to the end
      of all questions, the end of all answers. Now he's very
      happy, a loving and radiant presence. People go to him for
      support, healing, help of all kinds, and love. There's lots
      more to say, as Michael's a very good friend. But I'll stop
      and let his essay speak for itself.



      Bhakti Analysis, by Michael Rosker

      What is it that would make an intelligent, successful and
      educated person abandon even his most fundamental common
      sense and accept a philosophy or code of living that in any
      other situation would only be described as stupid? In the
      bhakti tradition as it has been transplanted in the U.S.,
      that is exactly what has happens. Normally, after spending
      a lifetime fortressing oneself into a self imposed prison of
      self-indulgent misery one comes across an experience of no
      limitation. After which, of course comes the compulsion to
      have this experience to be permanent. The old way of
      living, in comparison has become intolerable. At this point
      one is likely to turn to a number of spiritual paths that
      make claims to fulfill this longing. Since this newly born
      spiritual aspirant has no experience in the metaphysical
      world, he is likely grant spiritual teacher liberties that
      he would not normally even consider. From then on one could
      spend years banging their left shoe in the dirt or
      prostrating themselves before a number of 8x10 glossies. Or
      chanting every morning in Sanskrit, "If the Lord Hari is
      angry, then the Guru protects you. But if the Guru is angry
      with you, then no one can save you." This might all done in
      the name of "purifying the mind."

      But surprisingly enough, I haven't come across one
      legitimate case where this has actually taken place. What
      it does do however, is to create a new group of "low esteem
      children" who blindly follow whatever mommy or daddy guru
      tells them. Now this is not as grim as it seems. There are
      indeed wonderful benefits from this type of surrender. What
      I've discovered from many bhakti's is that for the most part
      they seem to have some "healing your inner child" agenda
      going on. Where this is concerned there can be some great
      healing taking place. One can begin to feel the love,
      acceptance and protection that had not been established
      early in life.

      Currently, there is no provision in the Bhakti charter for
      graduation to adulthood. If at some point in the aspirant's
      evolution these belief systems come into question, he will
      be told one of many quasi poetic, remotely metaphysical
      buzzwords to squash any attempted escape. One of these
      might be "It is only the Ego that wants to know," or "It is
      beyond the mind." Since low self-esteem is one of the
      prerequisites for becoming a Bhakti, it will be difficult if
      nearly impossible to extricate oneself from this
      self-deception on one's own steam.

      In my own case, it took the help of a spiritual teacher
      named Francis Lucille. This was the first time, after many
      years of earnest seeking where someone of unquestionable
      realization had sat and spoken to me as an equal.
      I remember after one of his talks, him sitting next to me on
      the rug, talking for a half-hour while everyone else was
      socializing around us. The experience was one where I
      couldn't be sure who was contributing what in the
      conversation. It was literally contiousness speaking with
      itself. I remember exclaiming aloud at the end of that
      evening that I had indeed become an adult Now, this
      recognition was only the first step, enabling to walk on my
      own two feet. There still was the task at hand to weed
      through the many layers of misunderstandings and inferences
      that maintained the jail cell I called Michael. Fortunately
      for me, I came across an experienced gardener who had the
      insight to see beauty hidden behind the overgrowth and had
      patience enough to yank them out of the ground, without
      disturbing the flower.

      Imagine for a moment that all our past memories,
      experiences, successes and failures have been wiped away
      from our memory banks and replaced with what ever it is we
      think we want to be in there.

      What's left ?

      Are we still who think we are now?

      Are our feelings and emotions the same?

      Do we react to life the same?

      Do we miss that which we left behind?

      Do we grieve for the self that is no more?

      After grieving is done do we accept our new self?

      Are we more spontaneous and less reactive to life?

      Are we more trusting of what life will bring?

      Do we now accept ourselves as we are or do we go on seeking
      something that is already here...in this present moment?

      Do we see ourselves brightly...not dimly?

      Do we see others as a reflection of ourselves?

      Are we grateful for all we are and all we have?

      Are we humbled to be experiencing life in this very moment?

      Do we look at our family and friends with love and gratitude
      now that we know our life is exactly as we created it?

      Do we love ourselves for what we created?

      Just Imagine...

      Three Forms of Knowledge

      Ibn El-Arabi of Spain instructed his followers in this most
      ancient dictum:

      There are three forms of knowledge. The first is
      intellectual knowledge, which is in fact only information
      and the collection of facts, and the use of these to arrive
      at further intellectual concepts. This is intellectualism.

      Second comes the knowledge of states, which includes both
      emotional feeling and strange states of being in which man
      thinks that he has perceived something supreme but cannot
      avail himself of it. This is emotionalism.

      Third comes real knowledge, which is called the Knowledge of
      Reality. In this form, man can perceive what is right, what
      is true, beyond the boundaries of thought and sense.
      Scholastics and scientists concentrate upon the first form
      of knowledge. Emotionalists and experientalists use the
      second form. Others use the two combined, or either one
      alternatively. But the people who attain to truth are those
      who know how to connect themselves with the reality which
      lies beyond both these forms of knowledge. These are the
      real Sufis, the Dervishes who have Attained.

      --Jan Barendrecht
      Michael: What good is spirituality if you can't integrate it
      into your life?

      Xan: "Spirituality" may be something you would or would not
      integrate into your life depending on your individual sense
      of purpose.
      "Enlightenment", or the recognition of eternal awareness as
      yourself, is not necessarily "good" for anything. It is not
      necessarily something you then use to improve life
      conditions for yourself or others. In the surrender of your
      identity, *It* uses you as it will. The prayer of surrender
      is "Thy will be done" until it is recognized there is only
      one will. Anything else is just ideas.

      Jan: The wraps do have a nasty property though: they will
      only burn one after another and each time a wrap has been
      completely burnt, one thinks "this is it" and of course it
      is, but "with" the next wrap... So the fire has to
      extinguish by itself, when all wraps have been burnt.

      Dan: An apt description of the nature of temporal
      Like many of your other metaphors - starkly beautiful in its
      solitude and stillness - burning away as an empty fire.
      -- Peace --

      I am lately getting the unmistakable impression that the
      purpose of all this "nonduality talk" is to induce
      vomiting. Most of it is truly indigestible. Perhaps that's
      the point: the Wordless.

      After hurling: great Peace. ;)

      Phil Burton

      When love is, "I" is not; this is probably the most frequent
      experience that yet escapes attention.


      Why speak of 'Truth'?
      Why use the word at all?

      It is only a word, a sound with no meaning outside itself.

      It is the most used word in 'spirituality' and the most
      misused, the most abused.

      It is not a doctrine, not a method, not a procedure, not a

      It may be the same as 'Stillness' 'Freedom' 'Self' and 'no

      But all are words, sounds with no meaning outside of

      --Petros on the new Petros-Truth list

      Not really on topic for nonduality but...
      I just found a brilliantly silly site, the anagram server:

      love, Anew damn crab

      Rearranging the letters of 'Nonduality Salon' gives:

      Insult and a loony. Annually sod on it.
      Loony, anal nudist. Lousy and not nail.
      Until and as loony. Unload on nastily.
      Us and notionally. Annoy in lads lout.
      Unload on saintly. Loony in an adults.
      In sod to annually. Stood in annually.
      Annual loons tidy. Annoy lout island.
      Unload saintly no. In Satan on loudly.
      An adult, loony sin. Loony and in a slut.
      Sod into annually. Lout and nosy nail.
      Lout and in as only. Only unload saint.
      Anal loons untidy. No! nastily unload.
      Undo saintly loan. Nosy and in all-out.
      Sun notional lady. Annoy on as dull it.
      Nationally. Sound. Lout annoys in lad.
      Lout and sly anion. Undo sly national.
      Odious, tall nanny. I, annually sod not.
      Silly and on an out. Annoy insult load.
      Is an only and lout. Sunny and tail loo.
      No! annually sod it. Lout load as ninny.
      Ninny as adult loo. On a dull it annoys.
      Disloyal noun ant. Lousy land on an it.
      Anal loony in dust. Old ninny as a lout.
      On insult on a lady. Annually do to sin.
      Is not. Annually do. Lusty and in a loon.
      Tiny loans unload. A loads lout ninny.
      Annoy so dull an it. In an only, sad lout.
      Lousy old in an ant. Undo nastily loan.
      Soul and tiny loan. Until load annoys.
      In and on a sly lout. Annoy until loads.
      Loyal and on units. In lousy, anal don't.
      So tiny, annual old. A lousy land in not.
      To sunny, anal idol. No! Satan in loudly.
      Install and on you. Alas! lout do ninny.
      Adult lion annoys. Unit as loony land.
      Annoy until as old. Duly loan on saint.
      Soundly. National. Loony and tail sun.
      Lousy and tin loan. Anal nudity loons.
      Duly. Satan in loon. Duly national son.
      Ninny as all-out do. Any lout on island.
      An unit loony lads. Louts annoy in lad.
      Annoy not as I dull. Duly anal notions.
      Unload nasty lion. Load saintly noun.
      All-out sod a ninny. Lout in and on lays.
      Slay in and on lout. In lay and on louts.
      Loony as adult inn. Loony until a sand.
      Annoy dull in as to. Annoy into as dull.
      Annoy unload list. Only and in a louts.
      An only, loud saint. Lion and lousy ant.
      Not a lousy inland. Nationals on duly.
      Lusty and on an oil. Old analyst union.
      Tiny as a dull noon. Alas! to loud ninny.
      On and an oily slut. Nosy adult in loan.
      Nosy adult on nail. In any adult loons.
      Insult and any loo. Lout so dial nanny.
      Lout so laid nanny. On until on as lady.
      In loony 'n' as adult. Is loony 'n' an adult.
      Loony anus land it. In only as on adult.
      Lousy, to an inland. Lousy land nation.
      Sunny load on tail. Sunny load to nail.
      Sunny dial to loan. Laid to sunny loan.








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