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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    It was Judi s birthday (she turned 25) and there were lots of letters and fine poems on her behalf. None of them are included; I m simply turning the floor to
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 15, 2000
      It was Judi's birthday (she turned 25) and there were lots
      of letters and fine poems on her behalf. None of them are
      included; I'm simply turning the floor to Judi and one of
      her posts in response to all the posts that came her way:

      God, is this fun or what?? :-)
      lalala, we travel along, singing our song, side by side.
      What if the sky should fall...as long as we're together,
      it doesn't matter at all.

      The way you wear your hat
      The way you sip your tea
      The memory of all that
      No they can't take that away from me

      The way your smile just beams
      The way you sing off key
      The way you haunt my dreams
      No, no, they can't take that away from me

      Happy Days,

      Already this morning I had been noticing how difficult it
      was to read yesterday's replies to my posts, and how much I
      want *out*
      from under this child-like expression of hungry or needy

      and how much I want to write something to the list that
      would 'wow' people, or at least give an answer to something
      instead of asking these questions.
      Damn how I hate this feeling of appearing to others as 'less
      than complete', or of 'lagging behind' the rest of the team!


      I'm not surprised that there's someone like that living in
      "Melody", there's someone similar living here in "Andrew".
      He's a rather slippery and insubstantial guy, when I look
      directly at him he kind of fades away. If I try to grab him
      he slips right through my fingers, like grabbing at smoke.
      He's always trying to get somewhere but he doesn't actually
      ever go anywhere. His biggest concern is what beings he
      calls 'other people' are thinking about him. These 'other
      people' are smokelike slippery insubstantial beings like
      him. No matter what he hears from these 'others' he's never
      happy for long.

      --love, andrew
      Perhaps the "best" thought is not a thought at all, but a
      state PRIOR to any arising of thoughts, the state of pure
      being, fully present awareness? The state of NOT KNOWING?
      (not in the sense of "unconsciousness" but rather not yet
      "contaminated" by any thought) And in that state, we have

      Cyndy: Yes. Expanding on that.... The state of 'not
      knowing' meaning uncontaminated by thought, is the original
      state of 'knowing'.
      Which is indeed insight. I also like what Bruce wrote..

      "Where there is truly heartfelt understanding thought will
      provide rightful service choicelessly, where the heart is
      not so engaged thought will serve only it's own concocted

      If a person is 'thinking choicelessly from the heart', that
      is insight.

      Andrew: Could be the 'first best thought' is the thought
      that hasn't yet been formed into part of the thinker.

      Bruce: Yes, thought in service is not thought the master --
      it is not "the thinker," which is itself a pattern of
      thoughts. Insight is not of thought, but we need thought's
      service to communicate even that!


      The Buddha, when pressed, would say that the self neither
      exists nor does not exist, the phenomenal world neither
      exists nor does not exist. At other times he would flatly
      say that the self is an illusion. I can say to you that
      karma neither exists nor does not exist. *In essence*,
      there are no actual discrete events that may be truely
      abstracted from the flow of universal energy; on the other
      hand, *in practice* it is useful to regard certain inputs as
      being causally related to certain outputs. I can also say
      that karma, like ego, is a genuine illusion, a self-created
      prison for many people who constantly punish themselves for
      imagined sins, and keep themselves down.


      Jesus, the great nondualist, explicitly rejected karma,
      considered absolute by the rabbis, and embraced
      forgiveness. How could we be forgiven if karma were
      absolutely true?
      Taoism embraces forgiveness, and buddhism does as well.
      Karma is a fetter, and justice may be tempered by mercy.
      Logic won't get you to heaven.


      ...there really aren't any phases, those are just words,
      temporary expedients used at a particular time in a
      particular place to make a particular point. There is no
      difference between enlightened and unenlightened, these are
      just words. There are no 'milestones,' no progress to be


      I don't see practice as simply something the unenlightened
      seeker does in order to achieve the goal of awakening, and
      then abandons once the search is complete.


      This is a really cool movie which should be opening in wider
      release this month. It stars Kate Winslet as a young
      Australian girl who gets brainwashed by an Indian guru
      (obviously modelled on Rajneesh from his Poona era), and is
      kidnapped by her family and forced to undergo deprogramming
      by a misogynistic American exit counsellor played by Harvel
      Keitel. Three days in a desert hideaway turns into an
      existential battle of the sexes, and the tables are turned
      . . .

      I saw this movie twice. The first time around I found
      myself identifying with Keitel's character. The second time
      I saw the story through the eyes of Winslet's character, and
      it was like watching a whole different movie. (Kinda like
      'Fight Club,' which seems like a different movie the second
      time through.)

      The film is not primarily about spirituality or cults, but
      focuses on the contrasting attitudes of men and women and
      how society forces gender roles upon us. Emotionally it's a
      very complex movie and there is no "good guy" and "bad
      guy." I won't give away any plot twists, but it turns out
      that the super-macho deprogrammer has a soft side, and the
      'spiritual conversion' of Winslet's character is eventually
      shown to be little more than a superficial defense covering
      up her selfishness.


      I thought 'Dogma' sucked, to be honest. 'Man on the Moon'
      was intriguing but didn't go nearly far enough into
      Kaufman's character. There's a lot to be said about the
      nature of self-identity and role-playing, who we are, etc.,
      that the film glossed over. 'The Third Miracle' (about a
      faithless priest who investigates a potential saint in
      modern-day Chicago) was somewhat hokey and redundant, but
      maybe it'll get some folks thinking in new ways about what
      spirituality may mean today.


      The perfect devotee sees the Guru everywhere. For instance,
      more than once I've called Death the greatest Guru of all.
      Disease is also a great Guru. And having one's heart
      broken. And suffering unjustly.

      Basically, everything challenging to one's habits and
      comfort zone is a great Guru.

      If one had to choose between a Guru that rips you off, or
      one that flatters and always makes one feel "good," go for
      the former.

      The 0th person perspective:
      I salute that which is revealed when thought ceases.

      The 1th person perspective:
      I salute myself.

      The 2th person perspective:
      I salute you.

      The 3th person perspective:
      I salute our predicament.

      Everything else, the great illusion, I do not salute.

      That moment that occurred.
      This moment this occurred.
      Every moment this or that is occurring.
      These occurrings is my living

      - Prabhu

      who would bother to understand Silence when it can be
      enjoyed? The mind has this tenacious tendency, wanting to
      describe and teach what is beyond its reach. No Silence to
      enjoy while this tendency is lasting...

      An excellent point, Jan. Mainstream American society found
      ways to "co-opt" some of the concerns voiced by the
      counter-culture during the 60's and 70's. Thus, the
      mainstream focus on consumerism and materialism continued
      unabated, while companies arranged to make profits from
      organic teas, tie-dye tee shirts, drug paraphernalia,
      music, etc., etc. In a similar way, "the mind" strives to
      co-opt that which expresses from beyond the mind. If "the
      can claim understanding (and describing and teaching may be
      ways to validate such a claim), the "mind games" can
      continue, and the "self" of the mind remains in its
      artificial and illusory position of supremacy. However, if
      "the mind" is honest with itself, its own limitations are
      exposed even through its own descriptions and teaching
      attempts. Thus, description and teaching can undermine
      erroneous beliefs (such as a "me" in the mind, or an
      existing entity called "mind", or descriptions as realities)
      if awareness is alert to the very process of self-deception
      that occurs as "mind" protects its investment in self.
      Then, a "no-mind mind" is - a still mind, a noncomparing
      mind - not invested in thoughts, descriptions, experiences,
      or teachings.


      Joshua: if there is a teacher then what is directly present
      is competition. To compete optimally requires seeing the
      situation "directly" from the 3rd person perspective, while
      acting in the 1st person perspective. Masters are always
      right because they can be themselves and detached from the
      1st person perspective at the same time.

      Dan: Joshua, you make a good point here, thank you.

      Here are some other observations:
      Masters are always right because they *never* obsess.
      Masters are never trying to make a point, thus they can
      assert any point that makes sense in the moment.
      Masters are never trying to convince anyone of anything,
      thus they are convincing.
      Masters are aware that there are no "masters", therefore
      they act spontaneously with no self-doubt.

      Masters aren't "masters" to themselves, and they have no
      investment in being seen as "masters" by others.

      Except sometimes - when they're competing.
      And by entering a competition to be seen as a "master"
      they lose their "mastery". When one master challenges
      another, the one who has the least investment in showing
      self to be a master is the one who demonstrates mastery.
      OSHO (contributed by Melody)

      "You cannot bring the divine, but you can hinder its coming.

      You cannot bring the sun into the house, but you can close
      the door.

      Negatively, mind can do much; positively, nothing.

      Everything positive is a gift; everything positive is a
      blessing. It comes to you, while everything negative is
      your own doing.

      Meditation (and all meditation devices) can do one thing:
      push you away from your negative hindrances. It can bring
      you out of the imprisonment that is the mind."


      One dreams within the single dream of Us.
      All things are connected.
      Sometimes we get to notice.

      I am rather skeptical regarding the undermining force of
      teaching or knowledge; there are various anecdotes regarding
      Ramana and celebrations. He taught that Self is the only
      bliss that *is* and was an exponent of that. When disciples
      would celebrate, he usually made a few funny remarks
      (vaguely remember something like "decorating a corpse") or
      wrote a poem on abusing the stomach :) I don't remember he
      made remarks on Xmas but I do remember the remark a Buddhist
      Sri Lankan driver made about it: "experiencing my blackest
      day of the year". The mind is capable of digesting anything
      but celebrations for instance are indicative of a comparing

      I was in India in '98, visiting Ramanashram and other holy
      sites. I felt that Sai was calling me to him, so I took an
      all-day train trip (8 hot noisy uncomfortable hours) from
      Chennai to Bangalore, stayed the night, dreamt of him, then
      took a cab the next day to his ashram in Whitefields.

      It was deserted. He was not there.

      Some devotees told me he was in his summer retreat eight
      hundred miles away in the opposite direction, and urged me
      to go to him.

      Instead, I thought, 'the heck with it,' and took a flight
      from Bangalore airport back to Chennai.

      Was I deluded? (Perhaps.) Did I waste two days and a
      couple hundred bucks for nothing? (I could have felt so,
      but didn't.)

      The real 'kicker' came when I got back to Chennai. On the
      day I was to leave India, with a reserved paid flight for
      Bangkok, I missed my damn flight. I still don't know how it

      I ended up waiting around the airport, then on the beach at
      Adyar, for twelve hours. Plane after plane came and went,
      all full, no space for me.
      The airline people couldn't care less. In desperation I
      purchased a ticket through Singapore just to be sure I
      caught my Bangkok connection in order to get back to the
      USA. Eight hundred bucks, down the tubes.

      (Was Sai punishing me? When I missed my first flight,
      should I have taken that as a sign that I was supposed to
      get a plane down to see him instead? Who knows.)

      But wait, there's more.

      After finally getting through security and all, minutes
      before boarding, I realized that I had LOST my entire return
      tickets, from Bangkok via Seoul and Tokyo to L.A. They just
      disappeared. I ran back through the security gates and
      looked all over but couldn't find them. I finally gave up,
      got on the plane, and when I got to Bangkok the next day I
      was able to have them reissued for a fee.

      As absurd and irrational as it sounds (remembering that it
      was India, after all), at the time there was no doubt in my
      mind that all of this was Sai's doing. Sitting here typing
      this feels very foolish now, and it doesn't make any sense
      to me right now. But at the time there was no doubt in my
      mind that 'the Guru' had quite mischeviously, even cruelly,
      ripped me off.

      The thing is, I do not regret a moment. I still can't
      figure it out, though I do wish I had tried harder to go see
      him. Who knows -- maybe I'd be dead. (There was a serious
      bus accident near Tiruvannamalai while I was there. One
      missed connection, one whimsical change in my sightseeing
      itinerary, and I could very well have been on that bus.)

      Such is the Guru's grace, such is . . . Stuff that
      Happens. Dependent origination and all that.

      Osho speaks on where G. got his strange methods and tells
      stories of wierd situations he put his disciples through.



      Arnold: "I've taught myself how to cook, sew, fix plumbing
      and even give myself a pat on the back when necessary. The
      only things I need from anyone is love and respect and
      anyone who can't give me that has no place in my life"
      The Mother:"You're throwing me out!?!?"-- Torch Song Trilogy

      How is it possible to find meaning in a finite world, given
      my waist and shirt size?-Woody Allen

      Hannibal Lecter: How did you catch me, Will?
      Will: You had disadvantages.
      Hannibal Lecter: What disadvantages?
      WIll: You're insane.--Manhunter

      Ah, here it is, So-crates. 'The only true wisdom is in
      knowing that you know nothing.' That's us, dude."
      -Ted to Bill from "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure"

      Customer : "An argument is a connected series of statements
      intended to establish a proposition! It's not just saying
      'no, it isn't'!"
      "Pro" arguer : "Yes it is!
      "Customer : "No it isn't!!"
      - Monthy Python live in the Hollywood bowl

      It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about
      --Gilbert K. Chesterton

      God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to

      I knew that we were having problems when You put those
      pirhanas in my bathtub again....
      --Weird Al Yankovic








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