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  • andrew macnab
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 12, 2000

      I'd say that the opponents here are fighting to open each others'
      hearts. It has a certain beauty.


      Where there is truly
      heartfelt understanding
      thought will provide
      rightful service
      choicelessly, where the
      heart is not so engaged
      thought will serve only
      it's own concocted ends.


      Hi Petros. Nice to have you back again. Here's how I see this:
      Projection of an idea of divine energy onto a human body
      makes the human form of the guru into the form of God incarnate.
      Rather, limitation of Divine Energy creates the appearance of "human body"
      over (and obscuring) that which Only Ever Was God Incarnate. The Guru
      restores the original Form of Infinity. This recognized, there is no more
      Guru or Devotee.
      This kind of projection differentiates one form as more divine than
      another, and associates the Infinite with a particular finite creature.
      Pharoes (you know, those Egyptian guys), Roman caesars,
      various magicians, have all tried this trick.
      It's not peculiar to gurus and their devotees.
      But unlike the Guru, caesars and Pharoahs did not ultimately obliterate the
      distinction between themselves and their devotees, as the Guru does. (BTW,
      notice how I am deliberately using the word Guru only in its singular
      The devotee
      wanting immolation and enlightenment - such seeking will
      lead to endless attempts to project the desire onto someone,
      and if that someone is helpful, he or she won't play the
      role of divine object, but will turn the seeker to Self.
      Which is what the Guru does. Unless s/he's just "a" guru among gurus, such
      as we have in abundance these days. Such are of no interest to the Devotee.

      The Guru ends seeking, and ends the Devotee.
      From here, it appears no devotee will be
      "fully immolated" until no projection is needed, no form is taken
      as a particular representation of Infinity, and no enlightenment is
      That's the bed-chamber; I've just been talking front porch till now.
      Petros, I espouse the ideas that make sense to me, you espouse
      the ideas that make sense to you, and life goes on. The Reality that
      isn't captured by any of our ideas, Life itself, moves on.
      It's very quick, so quick that it moves without motion, and doesn't
      depend on anything that you or I say about It.
      -- Love --
      Life slows down in order to make Love to Me!

      Dear Glo

      Sometimes I wonder. There is so much mindspin here. The thoughts that
      cause the separation. There are the few pearls but one has to dive
      deep. Perhaps I am avoiding total aloneness.

      I did not mean to insult, I meant it as a warning.

      Love, neo

      Dear neo,

      Mindspin? The mind is spinning in an orbit around love. The energy spinning
      it is driven by love. Listen under the words. The sound it makes spinning is
      love. Even this "thought of separation" is happening in love. Can any
      thought really separate truth from love? If there be no result, what is a
      cause? Perhaps there is nothing to avoid and no way to avoid? Even when I
      fall into nonexistence, I return bathed in love. Perhaps you are love?

      With love, Glo

      How would it be possible to avoid aloneness? The lives of many are
      revolving around feelings and this is the cause for the majority of
      thoughts; it can easily be verified. When perfectly satisfied with Self
      alone, feelings are but distractions and one doesn't celebrate anything; I
      stopped all celebration some 30 years ago but allowed visiting relatives to
      do whatever they wanted. What can be added to Sat_Cit_Ananda? Both favors
      and disfavors do not mean a thing anymore; that is aloneness :)


      These are great words for me to be hearing
      this morning.

      My body is spinning me this morning. It's
      like it's in a really bad mood, even though
      I'm not aware of any 'thoughts' or 'events'
      that have triggered such a reaction.

      It may very well be those 'energy blocks'
      Jan was talking about.

      I do see how I have a choice here today.
      In this state of 'aggravation' I could very
      easily go off on a tangeant....find some
      issue or person here in the phenonemal
      world as 'target' for release of this energy

      (which may be what you mean by 'avoiding' aloneness?)

      and thus be focusing on 'separation'.

      It would no doubt be a short term fix...
      by expelling and projecting this energy
      outward... a feeling momentarily of being
      free of this body shaking.

      Or I can keep it....keep looking at it....even
      as it brings tears....and feels as if the body
      will explode.....and ultimately *dive* deep
      within it.

      I wonder if this is anything like what you
      meant when you wrote this, neo?

      If not, thank you for letting me use your
      thoughts as a springboard for expressing
      my own.


      A hint could be the arising of irritation; this always indicates a block for
      the energy.
      It means being aware and cautious.


      A generalized feeling of irritation is arising this morning and last
      evening. I'm aware of it. I'm watching it....noticing how my muscles
      are constricting....noticing how much energy is being eaten up by it....
      how my body has gone on "alert" status. I know that mental and
      psychological tolerance is weakened considerably. Impatience follows.

      Now what, Jan? :-)


      There are so many possibilities I won't start listing them :) Man know
      thyself is what counts.. The barrier of E-mail connection would turn this
      into a kind of guessing game. When it comes to "life" observation and
      prediction, it is much easier. I knew about a week ago, having to become a
      mechanic in order to keep the scooter going and today there was a solid
      reason or evidence :)

      From another lighter side, going through a course of Reiki could also make
      one aware of blocks. And at least, as a practitioner of Reiki one can earn
      a living with the Shakti :) For a nondualist that is impossible :)


      ~ Melody, as a residence for mother Shakti myself, nothing
      beats following my breath and allowing it all. If I start to feel
      those signs of stress I realize I have been trying to contain
      the energy. If instead I let it contain me and flow freely
      there is relaxation.

      As Jan said, giving the energy in some form of healing
      is your opportunity.

      By the way, Shakti seems to love sugar. If I let
      her have it my body re-balances itself.


      Dear skye,

      I'm not sure I'm able to actually consult my voice much yet
      but I do feel those degrees of earnestness. Perhaps the
      times they seem
      most urgent are something I've listened to before and they
      finally hit
      really hard and say "it's time". I think with the outcomes I
      still have a
      "fall where they may" yet know they fall in the place where
      they were
      supposed to.


      Hi cyndy,

      The inner senses are much more unified than the outer senses
      (as we know them). Operating as a whole they function
      together more smoothly than the outer senses, nevertheless
      one still needs to learn discrimination and discretion in
      their use both on our plane and beyond. Naturally they are
      to be used to assist and not to be psychic peeping toms.
      They are concerned with innate knowledge of the universe. It
      takes practice to tell one from the other. They inevitably
      lead to an expansion of experience, greater understanding
      and compassion. If one is not ready to utilize them
      properly ones own personality will see to it that they are
      not used consciously at all, but the whole self will
      continue to use them constantly.

      One of these senses (though their division is an illusion)
      involves direct cognition of a concept in much more than
      intellectual terms. Baring in mind that one cannot truly
      understand or appreciate any living thing unless one can
      become that thing, then one can also become an idea, inside
      it looking out, not at it. Until one uses the inner senses
      in this manner one only receives a glimmering of a concept
      no matter how simple. Similarly there is an inner sense
      that can penetrate the capsule that encloses the self of all

      This is too difficult to word.

      much love

      ~ Listening in on this thread, I see that insight and intuition are natural
      but have been covered over by the mind's programming. My own experience is
      that as I see and see through that to my original and eternal wholeness,
      intuition and other natural gifts follow.




      That was fine no muddy waters. :) I want to tell you all this story
      Maybe someone can direct me in a suitable direction. I have been on drugs
      all my life since the age of 12. Im 47 now, being clean off drugs for about
      4 years. But I feel like a child. And I don't really know how to proceed in
      life. But I am Happy.
      I have had great feelings with Kundalini. I began opening the micro cosmic
      orbit as referred to by Mantak Chai. I have gotten off that method and have
      concentrated on opening the heart chakra mainly. When I put my attention
      there I imagine it opening the size of a house or too the sky. This is done
      with the feeling of love and awe for God and the energy around me in the
      I began to see or feel the wheel of the heart turning within and out side of
      me. With incredible surges of bliss, orgasmic like waves going though me
      which I could Harley handle. My body would tense up as the waves would flow
      though my body. I then brought that bliss down to my sex organs and imagined
      that place opening very wide also. Bring the wave around to the base of my
      spine I began to have an inner orgasm. I felt pumping within my body as I
      tried to direct the bliss upward to my head.
      This was the most amazing experience I have had so far with Kundalini. I
      thought I would ejaculate physically but the energy went in the direction I
      was hoping, went to my head and down again into the heart and finally into my
      stomach. When I closed my eyes afterward to relax to ponder what had just
      happened I saw in the blackness green waves flowing very slowly in front of
      my closed eyes.

      These experiences are wonderful but I don't know what to do with them. I
      have read some books by muktananda and have heard about the blue pearl. But I
      still can't see how all that will lead me to enlightenment. It seems to take
      my mind off the teaching of Ramesh/Ram Tzu. I wish I knew what the heck I
      was doing or could get real help in these matters. Anyone out there have a
      idea on the course I might take I would be appreciate your suggestions. I
      live in Jersey. I remember reading in the bible about having no false God or
      other gods before me. Possibly not to cause confusion as it might have done
      with me? I love Ramesh and his teaching but of course I also love the Bliss
      I can feel when Opening the chakras. Can the two be combined? Should I try
      to combine? All mixed up. I haven't done anymore with Kundalini since I
      felt I had a better understanding of Ramesh's teaching.

      Love Dan (Lovecode)

      Dan (Lovecode),

      Thank you for sharing your story here. I'm glad you've been clean from
      drugs after about 33 years. Did you know that Ram Tzu had a similar
      experience, on drugs for about 16 years? And most of all, congratulations
      on being happy!

      Kundalini and non-dualism.... It's almost two separate topics. We have
      several very informed people on NDS about Kundalini, if you want to pursue
      that further. As for the Understanding that Ramesh talks about, all
      experiences are arisings in Consciousness. They come, they stay for a
      while, and they go. No matter what the experience, gross, subtle or
      spiritual, Kundalini or a car crash, it comes and goes, does not last. The
      consciousness in which the experience arises is what is lasting, unbroken,
      partless and continuous. Since it is clear that the experiences happen to
      "you," You are that consciousness, one and the same. You are present
      before, during and after any given experience, and even without
      experiences. Nisargadatta said that "I am that which survives the
      dissolution of universes." You are present, not as Dan, but as
      consciousness. In fact, Dan is one of the things that arise in
      consciousness. You can experience the coming and going of Dan around deep
      sleep states, swoons, samadhi's, gaps between thoughts, etc. Things don't
      happen to Dan - rather, Dan is one of the happenings.

      So for the jnana marga, i.e., the non-doing path of Ramesh and Ram Tzu,
      Kundalini is just another experience. A great and blissful one to be sure.
      But there is suffering when the bliss ends, or when the next bliss fails
      to arise when expected, or when pondering over the general fact that bliss
      doesn't last forever and alternates with pain or regular life. I've talked
      to some people who prefer to take a shot a prolonging the bliss rather than
      try for non-dual realization or enlightenment. Most will keep at their
      practice until they are tired or disenchanted. *Then* when they turn to
      the jnana marga, things move very very quickly. They come to understand
      very quickly that happiness is not found in objects that arise and fall,
      but is rather What you are. Then, the suffering never arises again,
      because there is no more scorekeeping or calculating about how well things
      are going for a "me."

      And this doesn't mean that you must give up Kundalini practices! You can
      do anything, yoga, exercise, music, dancing, but it will happen without any
      expectations of ultimate spiritual results - it will be seen that there is
      no one there to whom the benefits accrue!

      In formal advaita vedanta, it is taught that the true purpose of spiritual,
      psychic, miraculous and Kundalini experiences is to demonstrate to the
      student by disidentification with ever more subtle layers that:

      1. they are not the physical body
      2. they are not the etheric body
      3. they are not the emotional body
      4. they are not the intellectual body
      5. they are not the body of bliss

      But rather, the student is That in which these things rise and fall. When
      this is deeply understood, there will be no more identification with the
      layers (e.g., "I'm the feeler of bliss!"), and happiness and fulfillment
      will no longer be sought in any of these transitory things.

      With love,


      Dan: ripple, ripple - these ripples are my karmic awareness expressing.

      Terry, you speak articulately, present a thoughtful and insightful
      picture of truth, and draw useful illustrations from Zen stories.
      Thank you for providing such immensely useful "grist for the mill".
      I find that you have herein looked into a difficult topic, have
      provided useful dialogue, and have pointed to Transcendent Truth
      as Love. Blessings. Much of what you have said rings true here,
      although I don't see it exactly the same. Let me present my

      The reality of love as more powerful and complete than
      any book of rules about reality, any conceptualization of
      good and bad, rings quite true. To say that the relative
      world is fully about, and fully supportive of spiritual
      learning also chimes with a tune ringing true to these ears.
      Those who are aware of interdependent origination see the
      all-at-onceness of phenomena, beyond the categories
      of cause and effect. This recognition is viewed as on-target

      When you expound that only enlightenment is,
      no one exists to be bound by karma, people torment themselves simply
      with their own self-evaluations, and all are free to do as they will -
      I find this argument less than fully convincing; also I'm aware
      that such words are easily misinterpreted and used as
      rationalizations, and may be taken as support for a
      lassiez-faire anything-goes approach in which discrimination
      is believed to be unimportant (an amoral rather than transcendent
      approach, sometimes referred to as "antinomianism"). I don't think
      this is what you were driving at, yet I do think a bit more might
      be said.

      Samsara is nirvana, phenomenal
      reality is numenal reality when viewed without obscuration. In
      the phenomenal world are life experiences that are effected
      by perceptions of events. Events send out ripples in time.
      Time is timeless, the ripples occur without moving (no-thingness
      is always the case, yet the ripples are experienced) - although
      all ripples are one ripple, the ripples interact, and the patterns
      of their interaction affect their becoming. This patterning
      effect of interacting ripples is karma. Although no entities exist
      to "suffer from karma", the perception of entities does exist,
      and suffering is real from this perception. Whatever rippling
      effect can be used to "unknot the knotted ripples" is loving.
      Thus, enlightened actions need to take into account the
      perception as experienced, and not impose a value-free
      stance when dealing with the experience of "knotted rippling"
      i.e., "ripples involved in self-contradiction".
      Compassion, from here, is not a value-free amoral stance,
      nor is it unmindful of the way that repercussions to actions
      are experienced as occurring - thus, rather than a person who
      is free from karma, enlightement is transcendent recognition
      of the nature of the entire field - including awareness that the
      "contracted patterns of ripples" are not other than who one is.

      What I am endeavoring to say, and words don't easily accomodate
      me, is that love doesn't demolish karma nor escape karma, it
      transcends it by fully encompassing it. This, from here, is
      why karma cannot be obscured (or ignored) by enlightenment.
      It can't be obscured because to ignore it is to ignore compassionate
      participation in phenomenal reality with recognition of
      phenomenal reality as noumenal - as who one is. Enlightenment
      cannot be unregulated participation because it views
      all apparent others as not truly or ultimately other. It cannot
      ignore karma, although I see myself as resonating with you when
      seeing that by encompassing all of karma, awareness is free of karma
      and beyond karma.

      "As you do to the least
      of these, you have done to me," said Jesus. As seen from here,
      love includes all of karma, all of the ripples, and that is why
      it can only act compassionately in the phenomenal realm, at the
      same time that it *is* fully the noumenal realm. You
      alluded to this when you said the enlightened can do what they
      want, but they don't because they love. This saying suggests
      that enlightenment sees the realm of differences as
      not other than enlightenment itself, and one's participation is guided
      by the relative realities one sees as well as the ultimate reality
      one is. *To say this more simply, I am aware that if I do this it will
      hurt you, so I don't do it*. That awareness is simultaneous awareness
      of karma and no-karma, of duality and the nonduality that
      transcends and encompasses all of duality. It is awareness,
      simultaneously, of cause and effect and causeless Infinity.

      Transcendence, in the view presented here, isn't the ending of
      thought, discrimination, time, or awareness of events having
      consequences. It is the ending of any identification with temporal
      realities, and the nondependence on thought for one's sense of
      "true" reality and identity. Events can still be viewed in terms
      of consequences, one can view from a position in time, at the same
      instant that eternity is seen, that the beginning is in the end,
      that all is one seamless Whole.

      This then is the ending of any perceived
      separation between timelessness and time, of the transcendent and
      the relative. It is love "operating" to bring itself to itself
      within itself, to help itself to remember itself, to use rememberance
      to act in the realm of "forgottenness", and to see that the
      entire realm of "forgottenness" is not other than oneself, and is
      the result of one's own actions to and within oneself. Karma is
      interactive, is not the result of one person's seeing, is impossible
      to avoid in the "realm of interaction".

      If there were not awareness of karma, the enlightened would, without
      any discrimination about repercussions, do whatever they felt like
      doing - and I agree with you, "they" don't do this. Without
      awareness of karma, they wouldn't care about
      any apparent beings being hurt (or any apparent beings learning
      anything either) because they would see no existing beings. So,
      why do they teach, and why do they interact compassionately? Because
      they see karma, at the same time they see no entities suffering
      from karma.

      Transcendence is to see that from the first not a thing is, and yet,
      simultaneously see that "this is". To see that there is no cause
      and effect, and simultaneously, actions have repercussions.
      There is no "me", yet the perception of a "me" is real to "him"
      and to "her," and how they see "me" behave (and experience "me"
      to behave, will affect "him" or "her"). This is true even
      though there is no "him" or "her". All is perception, there is
      no perceiver and no perceived object, and love functions in this
      perception with awareness of the ripple-effect of actions.
      My inferred conclusion as I read your perceptive and thoughtful
      writing is that sometimes the actions of one who is aware may
      appear paradoxical, yet the reason for the paradox is that the
      love expressed is transcendent of norms, not confined by norms,
      but comes from recognition of the entirety of karma as a whole,
      from being the entire pond, all of the ripples, and yet expressing
      simultaneously as a particular ripple interacting with other
      particular ripples. There's no way around it: how this can occur
      is a great mystery! It transcends logic without destroying logic,
      just as it transcends karma without destroying karma. Karma and logic
      are the same thing: awareness of cause and effect perspectives.
      Karma and logic continue to function, are used when their
      framework is useful, and simultaneously are seen in no way to define
      the nature of "ultimate reality".

      -- Love --


      Hello everybody. As some of us know, Judi's bundt pans are a 'hot' item. First, there
      was only
      a picture of the pans on her homepage, then there was an 'electric' version. In
      addition, I have
      constructed a Flash animation about the bundt pans. Enlightenment guaranteed within
      Of course, it won't last very long, since it is an 'artificial' enlightenment :-)

      You can find the test-version at this link:

      To make it work you need the Flash-plugin installed in your browser. In case you don't
      have it,
      the page will show you how to install it (will only take a few minutes)

      P.S: don't forget to click on the button to start the animation, once you're on the

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