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Highlights Tues4Jan

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  • andrew macnab
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 5, 2000



      But our actual "real" world
      is a highly competitive one! We
      have no choice! What the Hell !!! :-)


      ~ We have the choice to not participate as a personal identity.


      "we" = personal identity
      "we have" = personal identity
      "choice" = personal identity
      "not participating" = personal identity

      I am wondering how such a choice is made and how it manifests itself.


      We have the choice to not *know* ourselves as a personal identity.
      We will always be forced to participate as one, for no matter what
      our experience is of our selves, interaction can only take place
      between individual beings.


      ~ I feel we are not forced to participate as personal identities
      though others may perceive it as so. Interaction can take
      place as a dance of energies rather than as identities.


      Is the "not knowing" sufficient?
      Or is there an enormous gap between
      the "knowing" of no-self and the
      "actuality" of the no-self state? Or
      perhaps one needs a "mutation" to
      (suddenly) *BE* in the no-self state?

      That is why I am always intrigued
      (and fascinated! :-)) by the story of
      U.G. Krishnamurti's mutation? :-)

      Are your statements contradictory?
      << We have the choice ... >> and
      << We will always be forced ... >> ?
      Or you mean that one lives as if one
      plays a role in a play?


      ~ I don't know U.G.K.'s mutation story, but according to
      me there is 'awakening' and 'transformation'. Not knowing
      is awake and the continued dissolving of mind habits is
      transformation/deepening. Is that anything like what you mean?

      I knew.
      I saw I didn't know what I thought I knew.
      I gave up knowing for not knowing
      with great relief
      Through not knowing
      Now I know.



      I send this poem in recognition of the clear signals given to me here. Glo


      If you don't know the kind of person I am
      and I don't know the kind of person you are
      a pattern that others made may prevail in the
      and following the wrong god home we may miss
      our star.

      For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
      a shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
      sending with shouts the horrible errors of
      storming out to play through the broken dike.

      And as elephants parade holding each
      elephant's tail,
      but if one wanders the circus won't find the
      I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
      to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.

      And so I appeal to a voice, to something
      a remote important region in all who talk:
      though we could fool each other, we should
      consider �
      lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the

      For it is important that awake people be awake,
      or a breaking line may discourage them back to
      the signals we give � yes or no, or maybe �
      should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.

      William Stafford


      I would like to see warmth and compassion in all posts. Is this asking too much?


      ~ Apparently it is. If you are disappointed, look to your hopes,
      expectations and rules for how others should behave.
      It just programmed stuff no matter how good it sounds.
      If you want to experience warmth and compassion it
      is in you. If you want others to experience it, give it.


      Is it necessary to have confrontation between egos to dissolve the ego?


      ~ I have noticed that the grace of Self does not limit itself
      according to any terms or conditions we might set on it.
      When it is time for us to awaken or deepen in awakening
      anything at all might be used.

      My question stands:

      What I want to know is,
      what do you want supported,
      your identity or the dissolution of it?


      Is it just me or have other people noticed that the list is more
      compassionate with much fewer personal attacks?

      Love, neo


      Yes. As you spend time here, Neo, you'll discover the
      community has a life of its own. It's organic. Pesticide


      Much like a physical body,
      the list goes through
      dis-ease and superficially
      aggressive behavior that
      is actually its analog to
      the body's immune system
      in action. Nobody is
      really being attacked,
      instead the community is
      being spontaneously,
      naturally defended -- and
      thereby healed.

      So it is the search itself, looking into this activity of this search
      for the 'other' that must be undermined, seen directly. And, yes, it is
      a slap in face to see this, definitley egg on face, because our whole
      lives, our whole identity is nothing but this, is built around this
      search for the 'other'.
      ***Joshua: Before self-realization,
      Isn't it necessary to seek for oneself?

      ***Bruce: Of course

      ***Judi: No. That's chasing your tail. Only understanding is necessary.

      ***Jo: Isn't it necessary to seek a pure teacher?

      ***B: No

      ***Judi: No. That's more of the same. Only understanding is necessary.

      ***Jo: After self-realization, Isn't it necessary to seek disillusionment?

      ***B: No

      ***Judi: There is no seeking here, the fact is there is no 'one' here.
      It's called up shit creek without a paddle. :-)
      I can live with it. And I do! :-) Watch me! :-)

      ***Jo: I don't think "seeking" is the problem. To seek is a kind of
      personality, no more no less. I think the only problem is ignorance.

      The seeking state is
      ignorance, although

      ***Judi: Seeking and separate identity are one and the same. Which is
      ignorance of course, which is the same as suffering.

      ***Jo: You are surrendering *too* hard.

      ***Judi: Too late. :-)

      Ah, you have a calibrated
      "surrender meter," or so
      it seems! :-)

      ***Jo: Patience is a virtue, but impatience is also a virtue.

      ***Judi: Excuse me while I gag. :-) Choking on a piece of virtue. :-)

      ***B:You've just pegged my
      "bullshit meter." Both
      patience and impatience
      are simply MOs of the
      striver, the seeker.
      Once the nature of the
      seeking activity is seen,
      both abidance (roughly
      analogous to "patience")
      and impetus (roughly
      analogous to "impatience")
      are intrinsic and
      situationally choiceless.
      There is no "virtue" in
      either, they simply are.

      ***Gill posted:


      The sun has entered me.
      The sun has entered me together with the cloud and the river.
      I myself have entered the river,
      and I have entered the sun
      with the cloud and the river.
      There has not been a moment
      when we do not interpenetrate.

      But before the sun entered me,
      the sun was in me-
      also the cloud and the river.
      Before I entered the river,
      I was already in it.
      There has not been a moment
      when we have not *inter-been*.

      Therefore you know
      that as long as you continue to breathe
      I continue to be in you.

      ~Thich Nhat Hanh

      Allspirit website


      We have the choice to not *know* ourselves as a personal identity.
      We will always be forced to participate as one, for no matter what
      our experience is of our selves, interaction can only take place
      between individual beings.


      If I don't know myself as a personal identity, then I don't
      know "you" as a personal identity. Our interaction
      doesn't occur between one entity and another at this point.
      Our interaction is a blossoming in the Garden of Infinity,
      a sacred flower. If I feel "forced" to participate
      as an individual being interacting with another individual
      being, I ask myself "from whence comes this forcing?"
      I find that my projection of an individual being
      outside myself is this "force". This feeling of "being forced"
      then becomes the essential koan of the situation.
      Resolution of this paradox leads to -- Love --
      From here, this koan appears to be essential for
      this world, as many interactions appear to occur
      with the perception of "me" interacting with a separate "you"
      resulting in unnecessary friction, defensiveness, offensiveness,


      ...this announcement is either
      totally insensitive or totally surreal. I'm counting on it
      being the latter. So here is the Limerick Contest Winner...

      And the winner is...

      Joshua Pritikin!

      oops, wait a minute, he was the winner of Most Posts On
      Competition in Nondual Forum, Pre-21st Century.

      The winner of the NDS Limerick Contest, for his sheer
      volume, enthusiasm, quality, humor, passion, and the fact
      that he sent me a check for twenty bucks, the winner is our
      very own Jan Barendrecht. (applause, applause -- is there an
      emoticon for 'applause'? I know there's one for clap: judi's
      smiley, but that's another story).

      Jan will be sent an authentic Nonduality Salon t-shirt. I'd
      send him a bootleg one, but they're far more expensive.

      Thanks to all contributors: Andrew, Dan, Lynne, Bob, Bruce,
      Gen, Greg, Larry, Liliana, Melody, Rainbo, Sarlo, Tim H.,
      Tim G., and Xan. I'll eventually get around to putting some
      of them on a web page or upload them to our files page.
      There were many excellent, clever ones; everyone worked hard
      on them, and I thank you for the many laughts and smiles
      they brought.

      With the heat of their passion quite high,
      In the dark she had grabbed the K-Y,
      But her burning desire,
      Quickly set him on fire,
      When she smeared that Ben-Gay on the guy.

      --found on the net

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