#1970 - Friday, November 4, 2004 - Editor: Jerry
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This issue consists of more excerpts from interviews in the new
book, This Is It, by Jan Kersschot.
In these interviews, J.K. is the book's author, Jan Kersschot.
JK: When people ask me why I like your book, Enlightenment for
Beginners so much, I tell them it is because of its simplicity and
directness. But in some way, it is hard for me to sum up the message of your
book. Could you do that for my readers? In other words: how would you summarize
the essence of your message?
CH: This book is a thirty minute reminder that you already are 'who' [and
what] you have been looking for. However, you've cleverly disguised
this profound Truth behind an elaborately seductive game that you're playing
called 'Life.' This boook uses very simple words and cartoon drawings to
demonstrate, in a playful manner, some of the cosmic [and comic] implications of
playing this Game and just how [and why] your Self-deception continues to weave
such a magic spell.
JK: What kind of Game are you referring to? How is it created?
CH: The momentum for this cosmic Game is created whenever you pretend that
what isn't, somehow, is far superior to what is. Although this
belief keeps you focused on a never-ending journey towards happiness and
enlightenment, it also guarantees that you will never reach a point of
permanent satisfaction and peace. Why? Because this whole notion of
being on a 'journey-to-fulfilment' is actually the secret method that the
desperate ego uses in order to survive in the face of personal annihilation of
Consciousness. In other words, as long as the ego stays more focused on
making the 'journey,' it can continue to avoid disappearing entirely in the
blinding realization of the true identity of the mystic
~ ~ ~
JK: Those who are reading about Zen and Advaita Vedanta often conclude that
there is no right and wrong. That all the values are 'just in our minds.' Is
that also like that for you?
WL: No! Oh no, not at all.
JK: When you watch the nine o'clock news, are you less tempted to say that
certain things are bad?
WL: No! The organism that is watching the television programme has
values, has preferences.
JK: It's not all a grey...
WL: ... Those who say that 'all is consciousness and it doesn't matter,'
that's bullshit. That is the state of the seeker who has an advanced knowledge
of the subject. He negates all the qualities of things and mixes them together
and says, 'It's all consciousness.' When the final understanding happens, all of
that stuff falls away. And there simply is a direct response by the organism.
And the organism has preferences, and says, 'I like that, and I don't like
JK: Was it the same for Ramesh, when you were with him?
WL: Yes. For example, when Ramesh watched someone talking on the Indian
television -- for example some politician on the news -- he said, 'that guy
is a fool, he's such a fool!'
JK: Ramesh still had preferences and didn't try to hide that.
WL: Of course. There's no bland ... there is still passion for life. There
is a response in the body. What is absent is any sense -- any sense whatsoever
-- that what is happening should be other than it is.
JK: That's the point.
WL: Yes. That's the way it is. For example, I don't like it, but that's the
way it is. That's the basic quality; it is the way it is.
~ ~ ~
JK: So, for you this solidness of the body has disappeared? Suppose you
have very severe dental pain, isn't that area of pain, the source of the
sensation, extremely real? Isn't there a moment where you would be identified
with that pain?
FL: That is true. Yes. But at the same time, there is an absence of
personal reaction to it. A lack of mental reaction, if you like. I can imagine
that at a certain point of life I could be in a situation of terrible pain.
There can be an exceptional level of pain where we are involved personally, yes.
But these experiences never last.
JK: And does it really matter? I mean, even being identified, is it a
FL: You're right, it's not a problem.
JK: It is equally Consciousness, isn't it?
FL: Even when we fall back into an old pattern of emotional responding, it
JK: ...like a cloud passing by.
FL: Yes. You see, there is a lot of difference between a sky which is
completely grey with no blue holes in it, which is the state of the ignorant,
and the sky which is uniformly blue, which is the state of the sage. But when
there is one little cloud passing by, it doesn't matter. It is only because we
are so 'fundamentalist' that we would not accept such a could. Of course, the
sky is absolutely blue because Consciousness is absolute, but it is the
ego who wants the mind to be absolute.
JK: Which is impossible.
FL: Which is impossible. But as a result of this understanding, as a result
of the clarification of the mind and the purification of the body, there is this
continuous appearance of the perfume of our true nature.
~ ~ ~
VS: If a man digs a hole in the ground, the water comes by itself. He
didn't pull the water out, did he? The water came by itself. You make a
hole, you make it 'empty,' and the water came. You don't need anyone to come and
put water into it. People wait for water to be poured into them. They are like a
glass that is turned upside down. How can you put water in that? [whispering] Be
alert ... Leave the mind alone ... embrace life without the mind ... there is
love in the moement ... there is aliveness in the moment ... When you are in the
mind, you cannot embrace life, you cannot celebrate life. You follow?
~ ~ ~
More brief excerpts in my next issue.