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Highlights for Wednesday, December 15

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  • Melody
    Nonduality Salon Highlights for Wednesday, December 15 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Larry Biddinger: Would you write a few words about
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 16, 1999
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      Nonduality Salon Highlights for Wednesday, December 15

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Larry Biddinger:

      "Would you write a few words about sacredness and manifestation and
      awareness."


      Christiana:

      Manifestation is only sacred when we are aware.
      Awareness is a manifestation of the sacred.
      Sacredness needs neither manifestation nor awareness to Be.
      ~~~~~~~~~
      "Also, concerning presence, I was looking into awareness today by
      investigating nowness. I think nowness may be slightly different from
      here/now in that here/now may have some of the quality of stage presence
      in it, while in nowness I didn't find ANY presence. It's as though
      there wasn't any presence in simply being present. Perhaps presence is
      something that can only be experienced, as such, in another. Anyway, I
      would like to read your views on this.

      *** hadn't had any views on this.. but as you ask, I can discern the
      subject-object dynamic of presence. Perception is an implied bifurcating
      requirement. Presence can likely be experience in another or in self as
      other.. but I also see the place of no experience.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Jerry:

      Everyone's running around trying to say something.

      English is nobody's first language.

      Be still and return to your original language.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      John M. quotes Kahlil Gibran:

      "In the ancient days, when the first quiver of speech came to my lips, I
      ascended the holy mountain and spoke unto
      God, saying, "Master, I am thy slave. Thy hidden will is my law and I shall
      obey thee for ever more."
      But God made no answer, and like a mighty tempest passed away.
      And after a thousand years I ascended the holy mountain and again spoke
      unto God, saying, "Creator, I am thy creation. Out of clay hast thou
      fashioned me and to thee I owe mine all."
      And God made no answer, but like a thousand swift wings passed away.
      And after a thousand years I climbed the holy mountain and spoke unto God
      again, saying, "Father, I am thy son. In pity and love thou hast given me
      birth, and through love and worship I shall inherit thy kingdom."
      And God made no answer, and like the mist that veils the distant hills he
      passed away.
      And after a thousand years I climbed the sacred mountain and again spoke
      unto God, saying, "My God, my aim and my fulfillment ; I am thy yesterday and
      thou art my tomorrow. I am thy root in the earth and thou art my flower in
      the sky, and together we grow before the face of the sun."
      Then God leaned over me, and in my ears whispered words of sweetness, and
      even as the sea that enfoldeth a brook that runneth down to her, he enfolded
      me.
      And when I descended to the valleys and the plains God was there also.
      Kahlil Gibran, from "The Madman"


      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Neo:

      I do not think that one should try to get rid of the idea of I. First,
      we
      cannot get rid of ourselves or the basic I am. What we need to do is
      quiet
      the mind. It is the collection of thoughts and feelings that create the
      sense of an isolated, individual, ego based self. If we quiet the mind
      then
      the thoughts and feelings are gone and the concept of ego naturally
      dissolves.


      Jan:

      This could be a matter terminology: As The "I" can't literally wipe out
      itself, in that respect, getting rid of "I" is impossible. What is
      possible, is self-sacrifice, but usually this is temporary. By rephrasing
      to 'the "I" is gotten rid off', it is a different matter:
      1. In unconditional surrender, the "will to live and enjoy" is given up
      which leaves "I" as an object of observation, as thoughts like "I will...,
      I want..., I enjoy..., I suffer etc." no longer arise.
      2. By giving up the fruits of action, thoughts like" I made a million bucks
      today, I'm going to do..." no longer arise.
      3. In selfless service, thoughts are centered around others, forgetting "I"
      altogether.
      4. By observing thoughts and emotions rise and subside (and remaining
      passive), the identifications with "I" will wear off: it will leave the "I"
      which then appears to be absent, because as a mental construct, it only
      coexists with these identifications.

      Most paths will have the effect of curbing "I" related thoughts. The
      scientific edge is the work that has been done on the "me" meme; from this
      perspective there is indeed acknowledgement people think they are the doer
      although the readiness to act is present before the notion of doership
      arises. This leaves "I" as a tenacious mental construct, the result of
      repeated identification with the mind-body.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Tim G:

      I see the space between the words as containing all the meaning... the
      words themselves, as pretty or emotional as they may seem, have no meaning
      at all.

      An interesting way to read: ignore the words, and look only at the spaces
      between them. This may result in greater understanding than if the words
      are focused on.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Andrew:

      Understanding and effort are useless, we know nothing at all.
      Every action is a futile and meaningless effort.
      Every concept is empty fabrication, even the concept of existence.
      What I think is real is only the idea of real.
      It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.
      It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.
      I live on the earth to live on the earth.
      Living is simply the consequence of being born.
      It is perfect and mysterious.


      Scientific knowledge is dead knowledge, dissected. A soulless ghost.
      Philosophical knowledge is human speculation. A ghost with soul but no
      foundation.

      Realization can only be intuitive, from an unnamable source. It cannot
      be learned, it cannot be understood.
      It's all right not to understand. It's all right not to understand.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Gen offers some of her brother Nial's offerings:

      re: nonduality/duality, Nial writes:
      "you cannot communicate *anything* without duality! everything has its
      opposite and if it *didn't* you could not relate to it! I've thought
      about this a lot. Two perceptions, sacred or world. *Now* pay close
      attention, there is a very present danger to trying to bring peace to
      the world. We can only really understand peace as the aftermath of war
      and that would be a mess, I don't know. . . .But if love for your fellow
      beings and steadfast knowledge and faith and good works isn't enough,
      then I will mindfully perish trying!"

      Nial adds that he "can hardly wait to log in my own dual self."
      and sends a poem.
      it is called:
      BLOOD and TEA LEAVES
      Some may say i have fractional reality
      Or stereopathic psychosis
      I install dreams on my walls
      And lose the key to the locks
      So i sit under trees
      In the pouring rain
      Like it would really kill me
      Shit, it won't even try
      So i answer questions while i'm miles away
      Looking while they look
      And wonder what they wonder
      Give me tests take my blood
      Scan my brain read my fuckin'
      tea leaves
      And somewhere in the sediment
      At the bottom of a chinese cup
      I filter my distorted vision
      To match the music i hear
      With hundred yard gaze
      I flee
      for all i know
      i'm the string on the neck
      of some mad gysies guitar. ..
      --Nial

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Tim H:

      Must compassion be any 'thing' more than
      non-interference and is not non-interfernce tolerance
      enough?

      Must I 'always be 'angry' towards the innocent
      strangers that I can only know what they show and
      never more?

      Perhaps if I got angry at my anger it would consume
      it's 'self'. I am told that the 'tail' is awful but
      the 'taste' improves as you move upward.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Judi:

      Judi to Skye:

      Oh, and to help clear things up a bit for you, if you think I have attitude,
      you are right. But the differnce between us is that my attitude comes from
      understanding and from the joy of freedom itself, where yours comes from
      fear and ignorance.

      Sarlo

      There are two types of people in this world: those who divide the world into two types of people and those who don't.
      Among those who divide are those who think their particular brand of bullshit to be holy cow dung while others' is just the contemptible kind.
      Me, i have transcended this dichotomy. My name in Hungarian, taking small liberties, means horseshit, a shit of an altogether different colour.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Harsha:

      No remedy, no fight
      No seer, no sight
      In the moon light
      grass is glistening
      All alone in dark of night
      Who is speaking?
      Who is listening?


      Andrew:

      Footprints
      in the glistening grass
      Lovers
      under moon light pass


      Old Hag:


      Stroking beaches
      kicking sands
      Brushing bodies
      holding hands

      Never alone in dark of night
      who is speaking?
      who is listening?
      With Her kiss all questions
      dismissed.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Bruce:

      Ultimately, the only
      truly indispensible yoga
      and "path" is life itself,
      which I suppose is karma
      yoga whether we call it
      that or not.


      Dan:

      Some random thoughts inspired by
      those words:
      Relationship is all.
      All of these words arise from
      relationship. Perception of
      relationship seems to distort
      the actuality of relationship.
      "I" start wanting to sound a
      certain way, want to be viewed
      a certain way. Once an "I thought"
      arises and is expressing, there
      is no quashing it, quelling it,
      getting rid of it. It thrives
      on fighting against being quashed,
      quelled, and vanquished. In fact,
      the fight to quash it often reveals
      latent "I-thought" tendencies
      within the very urge to squelch it.

      Bruce Lee
      stole an ancient martial arts
      saying: "My art is the art of
      fighting without fighting".
      Only by not-fighting with it
      is the "I" thought fully uncovered
      and emptied of any apparent substance.
      That is the observation from here.
      Fighting with it allows it to
      defend itself self-righteously,
      thus distracting itself from
      full awareness and immolation.
      Fighting against an "other's" I-thought
      can also provide distraction, engaging
      awareness in the drama of combat, rather
      than in the Light of Itself.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Andrew:

      the human life experience does not
      require a meaning that must be understood. The only meaning to living
      this life is in living this life. For a lifetime, I am a guy called
      andrew who experiences life on earth, with all of its potential for love
      and pain, experience and relationship. Excellent, what a treat. What
      more do I need to know?
      There is a mystery which always remains a mystery. Realization is
      acceptance that this mystery remains mystery, is never understood. It is
      no flaw or imperfection that this mystery remains. The mystery is
      perfect. It is essential.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Will Calvin:

      The mind cannot be quieted, but can be observed impartially with practice. The observation is the quietness. Attempting to quiet the mind perpetuates the "problem".

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Jan:

      Someone sings a song
      Accompanied by drum and gong
      I AM I AM I AM
      The neighbors come along
      They have an I AM jam
      Accompanied by drum and gong

      Some birds are singing in the rain
      We are we are we are
      The journey's long but not in vain
      We have no luggage and no sorrow
      We fly today, we fly tomorrow

      A lobster playing with a clam
      Is it real - or is it just a sham
      The clam won't open up and lobster exclaims damn!
      Then it thinks and shows a frown
      You open up or I AM closing down
      ----------------------------------------------
      "Where shall I go" said the bumble-bee.
      "The past is too bad, the present is too sad and the future I can't see.
      To the past I can't go, the future I don't know, the present ain't for me".

      Along came hungry cat and she gave bumble-bee a whack.
      "To the past you go, your future is a drop or so and now you are my snack".

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from Lynne:


      The Waking - T. Roethke

      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow
      I feel my fate in what I cannot fear
      I learn by going where I have to go

      We think by feeling. What is there to know?
      I hear my being dance from ear to ear
      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow

      Of those so close beside me, which are you?
      God bless the Ground! I shall walk softly there
      And learn by going where I have to go

      Light takes the Tree; but who can tell us how?
      The lowly worm climbs up a winding stair
      I wake to sleep, and take my waking slow

      Great Nature has another thing to do
      To you and me; so take the lively air
      And, lovely, learn by going where to go

      This shaking keeps me steady. I should know
      What falls away is always, and is near
      I wake to sleap and take my waking slow
      I learn by going where I have to go

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Old Hag:

      got me reminiscing, think i will pull out the guitar from under the
      pizza cartons and play me a ditty from long ago...

      "lalalal...Why this feeling?
      Why this glow?
      Why the thrill when
      you say hello?

      I must tell you what my heart
      knows is true...
      Mr. Wonderful,
      that's youuuuuu....

      Why this trembling
      when you speak
      why the Joy when
      you touch my cheek?

      lalalalalal, my heart
      knows is true,
      Mr. Wonderful
      that's you.

      And why this longing
      to know your charms,
      to spend forever
      here in Your Arms.

      Oh, there's much more
      I could say,
      But the words keep
      slipping away,
      And my heart knows
      one thing is true,
      Mr. Wonderful,
      that's you.

      One more thing,
      then I'm throuuuuugh,
      Mr. Wonderful!
      Mr. Wonderful!!!
      Mr. Won..der...full!!
      I....love....You."

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Lynne:

      It's alright to tell us this.
      It's alright
      It's

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Neo asked:

      If you would not mind, would you tell me the origins of this list and how it
      came to be?



      Jerry replied:

      Hi neo,

      Thank you for contributing to the quality of this place.

      I guess the fact that it's not really clear who the owner
      is, is a good thing. It's as though we're flying in
      v-formation, with no single person at the point all the
      time. Positions shift.

      Glo's description is accurate.

      This list began when about a dozen people decided to break
      away from the Kundalini list in May of 1998. Several of them
      are still here and still very active.

      This original, small, and uncertain-as-to-their-future
      group, started the I AM list. You can read the public
      archives and re-live those very first days:

      http://www.onelist.com/archive/iam

      In that August there was a further breaking away to this
      list, which was called Nondualism. After a few months the
      name was changed to Nonduality Salon. The new name came in a
      flash, out of the blue.

      In January of '99, Harsha started HarshaSatsangh. It is a
      huge success with well over 150 members, while remaining low
      key. Most of the people here are on Harsha's list.

      I leave you with a quote from the first day of the existence
      of the I AM list, when none of us knew there would ever be a
      Nonduality Salon or whether we'd survive as a group. It
      describes a spirit, a way of looking at things, that hasn't
      changed. And it never sounded better:

      "No answer can be given to anyone. But the right questions
      can be asked. And how you address them can be discussed and
      futher questions asked. Everyone on this List is carrying
      out the function of the Guru. Each one of us, without
      exception, is Grace itself. You sign up for this list, you
      are the Guru."

      That's how we stepped into this list game, it still holds
      up, and that's why it's hard to know who the 'leader' is.
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