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Hilights for Wednesday, Dec 8

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  • Melody
    Nonduality Salon s postings for Wednesday, Dec 8, 1999 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ LARRY AND ANDREW: Larry wrote: Thanks Andrew for
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 9, 1999
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      Nonduality Salon's postings for Wednesday, Dec 8, 1999

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      LARRY AND ANDREW:


      Larry wrote:
      Thanks Andrew for your response. If I may ask, how did your realization
      come about, or how did your ego fall away, or how would you put it? Did
      you just wake up one day and that was it or did you have to nurture it?
      Was it primarily intellectual? Did you have to go off to the woods and
      be by yourself? What about the other part of your life--family, friends,
      work etc.? Were their seeming demands a threat to "peaceful awake"?

      I guess that"s enough questions for now.


      ANDREW:
      I don't call it anything, I got to a point where I just had to give up.
      I gave up faith and the need for any kind of absolute reality and just
      let things be. I stopped trying to figure things out. A point came
      where there was no hope and no fear as Trungpa might have said. (I live
      in Nova Scotia, and the 'Shambalans' have become a major force in the
      spiritual and cultural life of this community, when Chogyam Trungpa
      moved here in the 70's he helped bring Halifax out of the dark ages.)
      It's really nothing special, just a basic understanding. But it was only
      after I had stubbornly searched and thought and intellectualised myself
      to exhaustion.

      I love solitude in nature, but I could get by without it.

      Relationships with people push me to awareness, not away, being really
      present now with the people I love and in the world of the senses is
      what it's all about.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      From new member BOB MAURER:

      Anything that is communicated in words has to do with concepts.
      But the difference lies in this: when you formulate your
      conceptions (or use those of another that you have adopted) you know that they
      refer to something that is beyond concepts, but when you read someone else's
      formulation you do not.
      Simple yet insidious.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~


      By Carlos DWA:

      It was after one in the morning when the Salock, Tuppa Kae Loc hadShasha Togg
      get those of us that he could reach together. I think half
      of us where drunk or high. Fortunately I had been spending a rather
      uneventful evening working on hybridization schemes for my Amurs.
      Nobody had lit a fire in the hearth and it didn't seem like anybody
      was inclined to. We where all standing around silently enduring the cold,
      restlessly huddled in our cloaks and greatcoats when the Salock entered
      and regarded the lot of us with a look that defies description.
      As if we had forced him to be here at this ungodly hour
      instead of the opposite. He strode to the center of the hall and
      started right in -for all the world giving the impression that we
      had interrupted something important and he was anxious to get
      back to it.
      He said, "How comforting it is to believe there is a program,
      a tradition, a method, a technique... that there is a way that has been tread
      before. That there are official conformations. And of course there are, but
      there are none such to what I am indicating, nor can there be.
      Yet there is an organic potential and I will not say that it is not there
      -full blown -natural, and alien to all your concepts about such.
      How comforting to think there is someone who can lead you there. But I tell
      you -that if there was someone who could by their own power -propel you into
      what I speak of. They would be doing you an incredible disservice and injury.
      They would be crippling you for all time.
      You think there are conclusions to come to -psychological factors -insights.
      There are...-endless conclusions -endless psychological self referential
      infinite regression -all futile as regards This Movement. Every understanding,
      every conclusion is another bar in your prison. You can think you got a step
      up by coming to this conclusion itself, but you have gotten no where. This has
      nothing to do with psychological revelations -psychological revelations are
      irrelevant. "False self", "false "I"", "self", "ego", "subconscious" -If you
      achieve an enriched functioning, an enhanced consciousness, if you attain Ka
      (*rymes with awe) you will never waste your time on this nonsense again.
      Then what will you do -if all your problems and impediments evaporate?
      Will you delve back into their cozy dim comfort?
      Will you slit your throat?
      Or will you move forward as an explorer in new territory -new neural
      territory. Yes, the "mechanism" (a "mechanism" more conscious and alive than
      you are) that opened, that affords you this enriched functioning is embedded
      in your genome. But no one has been where you will be. There is no one to run
      to for comfort or conformation. You will either love the vistas of
      consciousness -of unexpected inconceivable possibilities -or you will try to
      run home to mama by talking about it.
      Then you will be "safe" once more, back in the arms of futility -fast asleep,
      and trying to teach others how to awaken. But then your awakening is only a
      memory. Your possibilities are ended and you can only lead the sleeping deeper
      into slumber.

      All your great spiritual heroes where nobodies as regards This Movement. The
      real greats are far too covetous of their time to become widely known. How
      would the sleeping masses recognize an awakened person? By their feelings
      around them? All they will find is a spiritual politician -someone genetically
      dominant -a daddy. By miracles? By believing in external miracles you miss the
      possibility and realm of real possible miracles. When you reach a point that
      you wouldn't cross the street to see Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammed, or anyone
      -unless you wanted to borrow a tea bag, then you are at a point where you can
      actually do yourself and others some real good. What I am saying here does not
      indicate "facts" or "Truths" or conclusions. It indicates energy flows
      -vectors. The words are irrelevant nonsense. See what is behind them. If you
      can -disregard the speaker and the hearer. Derive what nourishment they may
      hold and spit them out and forget them." And he turned and hurried from the
      room. And it was a really strange vacuum he left behind him.
      It was charged with -I don't know what.
      We all just stood there in silence for a time and then one by one without a
      word to each other we left, making our way through the snows to our respective
      abodes.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from ASHWIN, another new voice, responding to Tim's post:

      Tim:
      I can only come to one conclusion:That the body is an delusion, that it
      does not really exist. If the body were real, then from a nondual standpoint
      when it died it would logically have to disappear from view.

      Ashwin:
      the conclusion is based on the I expecting some thing to happen (disapperance
      of body....too many cartoon films there...). The life force and the I-am which
      had associated with a body has stopped its association, the delusion which
      has stopped
      is I-am-the-body. Once the dream is over there is no me, nobody. But how can
      one experience that when one is still a part of the dream. Instead of asking
      others in this dream to believe in nonduality by pervesere use of logic,
      the logic can be used to just point the way back. If one acknowledges the
      body and the mind when
      one is conscious and if the same consciousness comes and goes (doesn't take
      the body
      with it) Then that which acknowledges the body-mind is not the body or mind.
      So what is that which acknowledges the body mind (dead or alive)?
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Ashwin concludes:
      A conversation in duality has to use duality it is not possible to
      avoid it. Hence the use of duality by Tim to explain nonduality is Ok. But
      the whole explanations stands on the assumption-If nonduality is a fact then
      the body is a delusion.
      Another way of putting this phenomenon occured to me
      and I would like to share it. If I am dreaming then the whole dreamworld
      appears to me,
      for the duration of the
      dream, life in this dreamworld goes on. Actors live and die, their bodies drop
      decay and if I don't like them disappear. Many characters play there part,
      I get chased or fall in love or sometime fall of a cliff...But all of a
      sudden
      I am awake and the dreamworld disappears...I am awake and I know it is a
      dream.
      I am not expecting the dream to go on.. it is not as if I have logged off the
      dreamworld. It is gone finito end more over I know it never was, but it
      felt so real.
      Nonduality is I and duality is dreaming (a concept). Yes that is the
      concept of
      nonduality. Having liked the dream experiences the Same I craves for the
      excitement
      and dreams again. This is the lily of the play divine.

      This dual concept will not take us beyond duality, we can see it understand it
      and drop it and may be the dreaming will stop.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from JAN:

      I vaguely remember a quote, saying that it is
      easier to renounce pleasures than pain. In my case, things
      were different: in all endeavors, the attitude behind it had
      always been "all or nothing", either a 200% effort or "do
      nothing at all" and by analyzing the course of events in
      causal fashion, it was impossible to see how things could have
      been differently; it would have required a person with a
      different mind or character.. Furthermore, friends and
      relatives never had complained about the "traits" that caused
      pain whereas things they would rather see not, had been
      brought up regularly. It became obvious that my idea of
      "myself" was quite different from what others were seeing.
      These kind of reflections made it possible to discard blame
      and guilt and the pain that came with it. I came to the
      conclusion that the course of events could not have been
      avoided in any way. This brought peace of mind and enabled
      renunciation of both pleasure and pain.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      from JERRY:

      The hunger to know: that's the worm that aerates the soil,
      samples of which are included below, generously supplied by
      Greg. Another practice is to eat the worm. Also, it's been
      pointed out to me that this place could be considered a
      practice. Seeing it as such could kill it, like being lucid
      in a dream and suddenly waking up.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      from GREG:

      Larry asked this several days ago. What practices do people do, what can
      they do? (I've just finished teaching a 7-day computer class, so now I
      have some more time to contriubute.)

      Larry, you have probably heard that practice is not required, and it sounds
      paradoxical. Some say this, and then go ahead to prescribe practices too!
      This is because doing a practice for a goal-oriented reason can actually
      result in your seeing that practice has never been required. In formal
      advaita vedanta study, doing devotional practices and selfless service,
      worship of a deity, chanting, yoga for the mind and body - these are
      explained as means that will quiet the mind so that insight and
      understanding of your true nature will have a bit of space to dawn.

      There are several practices that are pretty good. I've tried all the below
      except where noted. If you're interested in looking into any of these, I
      have phone numbers and lots of info about some. I'm sure that other NDS
      folks can help as well.

      Zen - it has non-dual philosophy, and practices such as koans,
      zazen (seated silent meditation), and ancillary practices
      such as martial arts, shakuhachi (flute), flower arranging,
      archery, tea service, calligraphy, etc. Most Westerners
      who are attracted to it also like the aesthetics. Zen
      is so enormously popular that there's likely to be a Zendo
      near you. Andrew also has lots of information on Zen.

      Advaita Vedanta study - as taught by the orthodox schools such
      as the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam or the Chinmaya Mission. It
      involves study of the scriptures, some philosophy, and several
      different forms of meditation, including the OM meditation,
      which is designed to take you exerientially through the koshas
      and sleep states to Brahman. Reading can be done without a
      teacher, but it's much more effective with a teacher, especially
      if you want to learn about the meditations.

      Christian Contemplative Meditation - I haven't tried this, but
      think Christiana has, perhaps others. I know about it from
      reading THE CLOUD OF UNKNOWING, THE PHILOKALIA, DARK
      NIGHT OF THE SOUL, and Bernadette Roberts' books.

      Madhyamika reasonings - From the Ge-Luk-Ba school of Tibetan
      Buddhism, ways of analyzing things such as cars, people,
      one's self as to its true nature, and finding on every side
      nothing other than the lack of inherent existence. This can
      be done with or without a full blown Tibetan Buddhistic
      practice. Sources: THE FUNDAMENTAL WISDOM OF THE MIDDLE WAY,
      by Nagarjuna (translated and commentary by Jay Garfield).
      EMPTINESS YOGA, by Jeffrey Hopkins.

      Shin Buddhism - Japanese form of Mahayana Pure Land Buddhism
      that stresses universal compassion and saying the
      Buddha's name out of gratitude.
      All beings are already saved, because of Bodhisattva
      Dharmakhara's vow to forego Buddhahood until all beings
      achieved enlightenment. Since he is now Amida Buddha, his
      vow was fulfilled. Having faith that salvation is already
      assured because of Amida's grace, is called "shinjin,"
      and is the stage of non-retrogression. It is very close
      to some popular advaita teachings, and the members are
      very nice. The most populous form of Buddhism in Japan.
      It is a way I celebrate - to me it is beautiful.

      Kashmir Shaivism - From Swami Muktananda. At its core it
      is non-dualism, even though there has been lots of
      cultural and glitzy overlay surrounding the SYDA YOGA
      organization. They have lots and lots of practices.
      I know one of their senior teachers, in case you'd
      be interested in the serious side of this path.

      Kashmir Shavistic yoga - One of my teachers does this
      as a celebration, and teaches it as well. Jean Klein
      practiced it. It is a good way to come to see the
      body as sensations arising and falling against a
      background of pure awareness. Blind spots in the
      body can be seen and dissolved, leading to fewer
      contractions and pockets of sensation that make us
      think that we are located at the cneter of the
      forehead, or in the chest.

      Clear Seeing - Arjuna Ardagh, one of Papaji's former
      students, instructed by Papaji to bring Satsang to
      the West. Arjuna is a friend of mine - I think Xan
      knows him too. He has an intensive method of leading
      one back from the feeling/thinking level to experience
      the Nature of who they are.

      Native American - no personal experience but I hear very
      wonderful things about it.

      Kabbala - no real experience other than that set of teachings
      touched upon in Rosicrucianism. I think Dan and Colette
      and others might have more info.

      Sedona Method - Lots of my friends are graduates or teachers
      of this, and it is particularly popular with devotees of
      Ramana Maharshi, Robert Adams, Papaji and the teachers
      Papaji authorized.
      It is a psychological method to "release" negative feelings
      by seeing that they are dependent on other, deeper feelings
      and beliefs. The deeper feelings are released, which
      releases the more surface-level feelings, resulting in a
      temporary feeling of clearness.

      The Work - Byron Katie's method of seeing that you would be
      just fine, perfection itself, without the beliefs that
      underlie your present irritated or negative feelings.
      Petros and perhaps others have attended weekend sessions.


      Not non-dualistic, but... these hybrid Western/Eastern paths are
      interesting to some, and I spent several years in them:

      Anthroposophy / Theosophy / Rosicrucianism / Esoteric Freemasonry (Co-Masonry)
      Hermetic studies...

      Hope this helps,

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Tim Harris:

      One need only understand that 'one' of the 'two' does
      not exist. This is the key to 'unlocking' the argument
      and freeing your 'self'. Life (heaven, nirvana,
      advaita, eden...whatever) does not happen tomorrow. If
      it is to be 'realized' it must be realized with 'this'
      moment not 'that' one. Thus 'there' is 'not two'.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from XAN:

      All my foolishness arises in the Silent IAm. I would be
      even more of a fool to turn a blind eye to it. I am
      particular alert to the mind's capacity for self-deception.
      It is a core element of my 'practice' to be vigilant in this
      way. (Larry take note)

      It is walking the razor's edge to be watchful for mind's
      expectations, projections and judgements while absorbed
      in/as Silent Heart. I find that willingness to see, and seeing
      through my own bullshit leads to deepening and expansion
      of awareness.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: "Jan Barendrecht" <kvy9@...>


      The issue of "manifest vs. unmanifest"....... It can not be
      emphasized enough there is no such division as
      "manifest/unmanifest". It is always possible to find a smaller
      "fundamental" particle; the smaller, the more energy required
      to detect it and there is a limit to the amount of energy,
      available for the purpose of detecting. The unmanifest is one
      white point in an ever changing field of grayness with one
      black point, the manifest. Every gray point in the field is
      unique and yet consist of the two extremes, black and white.
      One's real nature is the wholeness of this field; when this is
      realized, both black and white transform into transparency
      until no opposites are left.

      Hymns concerning the unqualifiedness of the unmanifest can
      only be expressed when the link with the manifest isn't broken
      yet. Yet the emphasis is on the unmanifest; enlightenment
      could be defined as recognition of the unmanifest, no matter
      how the recognition is mixed with the manifest, or the name
      given to this recognition. Acknowledging only the unmanifest
      is a folly; the beauty of a flower isn't diminished by its
      transitoriness. If that were so, plastic flowers would have
      eliminated 'real' ones long ago. The possible beauty of each
      unique transient life will become self-evident when having
      taken the consequence of the indivisibility of
      manifest/unmanifest.

      The consequence of the artificial division between
      manifest/unmanifest is acknowledgement that recognition of
      "just" the unmanifest won't do; in a similar fashion, one has
      to recognize the indivisibility of manifest/unmanifest.
      Because the mind is only capable to look at things serially,
      not simultaneously, recognition isn't the proper word; the
      proper term is "successive realization" or transformation and
      consists of a series of events, some of which are common to
      all human mind-bodies. Now, one's attitude regarding this
      mind-body will pay-off; if the mind-body is perceived as a bag
      of filth, bags of filth are seen everywhere; if the mind-body
      is perceived as a receptacle for suffering, suffering is seen
      everywhere, if the mind-body is seen as a unique opportunity
      for learning and transformation, opportunities for learning
      and transformation are seen everywhere. As you meditate, so
      you become :)

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      TIM G and DAN:

      Tim:
      You know not to whom you are speaking, because when
      you speak to him, you address no one. No personality equates to
      unpredictability. Unpredictability is commonly viewed as "strange" or
      "unusual," or in extreme cases, "insane." Yet it is the dull, repetitious,
      boring nature of "personality" that is truly insane, utterly empty of
      genuineness and spontaneity. Jan flows with life, wherever life may take
      him. Those clinging to rocks will see some strange shape rush by. Those
      also flowing will see "Jan" as he is.

      Dan:
      I found much beauty in this statement. This moment is unpredictable
      *in toto*. Its only apparent predictability occurs when we separate
      our memory from it and then use our memory to convince ourselves we
      predicted something. Ha! This moment is totally spontaneous.
      The only personalities that are seen occur when we perform the same
      memory trick. I like the way you took a look at "Jan" flowing by -
      that's clearly the way to look at him! When I'm flowing
      and "Jan's" flowing - how can I see "me" or "him"? Only if I take friction
      and use it to draw false conclusions will I imagine I know him
      at all (or me for that matter) -- Love --

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      TIM H:

      Water flows with many currents, back waters, eddies,
      undertoes, and curves... yet, all in the same
      direction and from beginning to the end.

      There can be no going 'by' said the 'tortoise' to the
      'hare'.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      ANDREW offered a quote by Suzuki Shosan:


      "Finally, in my sixties, the meaning of the phrase "Don't be deluded"
      came to me unexpectedly. At that time I just danced about, saying "Don't
      be deluded! Don't be deluded!" My heart filled with gratitude. If
      someone had actually been about to cut off my head, I would have
      considered it an illusion. But I carefully thought it all through and
      returned to my old self and to my various methods of practice. I still
      can't stop treasuring this bag of dung. The thing that we call existence
      is deeply ingrained."- Suzuki Shosan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      SKYE wrote:

      I myself see no need for haughtily casting aside or
      annihilating anything, as if it were some low life, left
      over, 'somethings'! simply because we can speak of it.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      XAN answered:

      < What is the difference between a "living body"
      and a "dead body?" >

      ~~~
      Like the difference between a car that runs and
      one that is totaled - It can't be used by awareness
      to interact in this thin dimension of illusions any more.

      xan
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      from MELODY:

      It was more like... by *embracing* lonliness,
      Aloneness was, too.

      It was some of that 'bitter-sweet' I have talked about
      before. Sometimes I wonder if what I call bittersweet is
      what the masters call freedom from suffering....in that the
      pain is felt but is wrapped in the 'sweetness' of a peaceful,
      and even blissful, heart.

      It seems that the minute I'm willing to say,
      "This is perfect", and quit trying to push it away,

      the Sweetness wraps itself around the situation

      and I get lost in her embrace.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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