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#1849 - Monday, July 5, 2004 - Editor: Jerry

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  • Jerry Katz
    #1849 - Monday, July 5, 2004 - Editor: Jerry Highlights Home Page and Archive: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm Letter to the Editors: Click Reply on your
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      #1849 - Monday, July 5, 2004 - Editor: Jerry
       

      Highlights Home Page and Archive: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm

      Letter to the Editors: Click 'Reply' on your email program, compose your message, and 'Send'. All the editors will see your letter.

       
       

       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Mark McCloskey
       
       
       My dear friends, I know I risk alienating some of you by the following words, but the shattered world we live in has provoked me with a sense of urgency to deliver the message loud and clear from the depths of pure silence. I only ask that you read carefully and please reflect fully before you make any judgment. I feel that when you have finished you may find a sense of relief.

      You may have heard someone ask you the question: "what do you believe in"? or perhaps you have heard the expression "everyone needs to believe in something." You may have also heard that two ideas never to be discussed between friends are religion and politics. I wonder why people are so adamant that beliefs are some sacred, secret thing that everyone is entitled to hold precious and that discussing them openly might cause a difference of opinion and lead to confrontation. The sad thing about belief systems is that people are even willing to kill and to die for what they believe!

      The truth is, that individual, nationalistic and religious belief systems have divided and are dividing the world we live in. They have also divided we, ourselves, from each other and are the source of all conflict today. All one need do is open the newspaper or turn on the TV and you will notice quite clearly how the beliefs that people hold dear are the cause of every friction and humanly imposed calamity on the earth. There are, to name a few big ones: Palestinian vs. Israeli, Fundamentalist Muslim vs. American, Iraqi vs. the Coalition, Chechnya rebels vs. Russians, Protestant vs. Catholic (in Ireland), North Korean vs. South Korean, Bath separatist vs. Spain, Terrorist vs. Westerner and Indian vs. Pakistani. There have been many more in the history of our civilization: too many to count actually! And there are so many more and perhaps not as blatant nor resulting in war but they exist nonetheless: Pro Choice vs. Anti-Abortion, Republican vs. Democrat, Liberal vs. Conservative, husband vs. wife, establishment vs. youth and on and on. Bottom line: if you and I believe differently, then we will be separate from each other.

      Every religion, every country's nationalistic policies, every ideology and philosophy is based on this simple fact. Once upon a time, perhaps long ago, a human being alive in the world confronted life, death, emotions, people and things around him or her self and formed some conceptual ideas or thoughts about what the truth is, about what reality is or what it should be. Many of these folks shared their thoughts with others either by word or through voice and deed. Other folks agreed with them, followed their ideas, formed groups, churches, temples, countries, societies, and so on. Again, the basic fact is that someone had an idea or thought and others concurred. Religions were born. Great ideologies created. Philosophies composed. The rest is history. But I ask you a simple question: every belief purported was deemed to be the truth by those following it, and if everyone one holds this opinion, then obviously those beliefs which differ cannot possibly be the truth and inevitably must be in conflict with the concepts one holds as true and sacred, so what is the truth then?

      Perhaps there is some small glimmer of truth in most belief systems but because of cultural conditioning, the truth has been disguised somewhat and in a sense camouflaged and become somewhat inaccessible to those not of that particular culture. On the other hand, perhaps because of humanity's gift (or curse) of an analytical evolved mind and the ability to think, rationalize and symbolize, we have gotten too wrapped up in the symbolizing and rationalizing and even personifying truth and we indeed have lost sight of the reality itself.

      The problem with all belief systems is that they can condition us in how we think, what we say, how we act, what clothes we wear, foods we eat, how we vote, how we treat those who do not share our belief system, etc and all are contradictory to the basic human freedom to be and partake of the openness of life which is awareness itself. To sustain themselves, belief systems need followers and the followers need to distinguish themselves by dressing the same, using rituals and rites, eating certain foods, having creeds, bibles or constitutions, meeting together to agree in public with the beliefs that are shared: often there is flag waving, grand celebrations, declarations of strength, sometimes suicide pacts, Liturgies, orgies, hierarchies, tithing and collections of donations for the cause and so on.

      Beliefs are thoughts that we form or follow to bolster the sense that we are individuals, that we are persons. In a sense, a belief system, in which many believe the same things allows these individuals to band together to form larger groups, even countries, societies, and religions which have billions of followers. The basic flaw in all this, if you have read much of this Pure Silence web site, is that we are not persons at all: we are the silent awareness of being itself. This awareness needs no belief. This pure silence cannot be defined and cannot be squeezed into some ideology. This moment just is: whether you believe that there will be a future moment or a heaven, or whether you believe that you are a somebody who is defined by what you think and have a birth and a past, etc. I could go on and on about all this-the point is simple: you are not your beliefs, so why struggle to maintain something like this? Think of the energy you are wasting in your ritualistic thinking and more by the guilty thoughts which may arise in your mind that you are not following what you have been taught or brought up to believe is true. There is a solution, very defined, succinct and clear. I shall end this page in the words of the great teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti:

      " Stop believing in anything and you may find that which is truth itself."

       


       
       
      Alice Fulton on nonduality
       

      MILLER: In the excerpt from your working notebook, I'm interested in what you call "betweenness." You list "the quality of betweenness: what comes between two quantities, objects, people" or "the nature of being between categories" as an organizational category important to Sensual Math, and later mention "Thirdness rather than binary thought." Do you see betweenness or nonduality as linked to voice in your poems?

      FULTON: When I began writing in the seventies, everybody was writing voice-based poetry, and young poets were concerned about "finding their voice." One of the tests for whether you were a true poet was whether you had discovered your authentic voice. Right from the beginning, I decided that wouldn't be it for me, that I wasn't interested in finding this thing that spoke through me, or finding a persona that would be mine and would be steady. I was much more interested in language and what could be built of it. I wouldn't have said it in these words, but I was using language as a construct. And that's still how I think of making a poem.

      In the newer, polyphonic poems, the voices are multiple. I use various tones and registers of diction and vocabularies as a means of creating a texture of multiple voices within one poem. And these shifting voices, by refusing to build into one steady character or personality, might be said to exist between identities. As for nonduality and voice, my poems that create a speaker without giving any gender clues are trying to disrupt the man/woman binary and suggest a third, less categorical way of being.

       

      cover of Sensual Math 

      The Priming Is A Negligee

      between the oils and canvas. Stroke the white
      sheath well into the weave. The canvas
      needs more veil. The painting
      should float on skins of lead
      white coating -- or its oils will wither
      the linen they touch, its colors gnaw
      at cloth until the image hangs on air.
      The canvas needs more veil.
      The body takes its own shade
      with it everywhere. There are true gessoes
      flesh will accept: blocks and screens
      to keep the sun just out of reach. Creams
      white as styrofoam but less
      perpetual, vanishing like varnish
      once they're crammed between the cells.
      So skin is sheltered
      by transparencies, iced
      with positive shadows. Sunshade.
      The nihilist is light.
      Printers know it's the leading
      between lines that lets them be
      swaddled in the rag of stanzas.
      How close the letters huddle
      without rubbing. For immersion see
      "passion between." See
      opposite of serene. For synonym and homonym
      see "rapt" and "wrapped."
      There is a gown -- that breathes --
      and a gown -- that heats. One to hold,
      one to release. Watch
      the lead white camisole go up
      in arms and hair and skin.
      That one flings it like a shiny jelly
      to the floor. With beautiful frugality, go
      the solid cotton briefs.
      The lovers get so excited
      to think -- nothing comes between them.
      There is nothing between them.
      That's how they can consume each other,
      sand each other sore.
      The oils are suspended
      on a leading. The lovers
      touch in linen walls.

      from Sensual Math
      and The Southwest Review
      and The Best American Poetry, 1994

      Copyright © 1993,1994,1995,2004 by Alice Fulton. All rights reserved.

      http://people.cornell.edu/pages/af89/books/contentsm.html#anchortpian


       
       
      Josie's questions and the responses
       
      I have a question (that turned into questions) for you. I am curious.
       
      What you resonate most with these days that falls under "non-duality" or
      outside?
       
      Do you consider yourselves sitting, standing, extremely alert, awake,
      enlightened, conscious, dreaming or "non-of-the-above-how dare you ask, isn't it
      obvious" or your own description?
       
      Is the idea/experience of enlightenment something you reserve as a description
      for a rare few, it's never happened, it happened to 3 human beings ever, there
      is a small percentage of humans that are self-realized living currently, or how
      can one not see everything is awake including the mud beneath the lotus?
       
      Is enlightenment/self-realization/awakeness (overlooking temporarily that
      different teachers define these terms uniquely & differently and pointing to the
      general idea) something you aspire to or accept as direct truth in your own
      experience of yourselves?
       
      Do you see enlightenment as an immediate permanent shift or as a process with
      levels (overlooking for the moment how the concept "there is no time" negates
      the concept "process" as time-based & focusing on humans living in space and
      time)?
       
      Have you, to your own satisfaction & criteria been with people you consider to
      be awake? And/or extremely awake, somewhat awake, astonishingly unawake with
      strangely happily nodding followers?
       
      Do you feel any strong connections with realized masters no longer physically
      alive and if so who?
       
      Do you still/or ever attend satsangs and why?
       
      At this point in your awareness, in your lives, what do you experience a)if you
      attend satsang (in any role), b)when you interact/create/express online as in
      what draws you to remain involved?
       
      Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what do you see it
      as?
       
      respectfully & sincerely, thank you for considering these points (& possibly
      answering)
       
      namaste,
      josie
       
      ~ ~ ~
       
      Gene Poole's response:

      > I have a question (that turned into questions) for you. I am curious.
      >
      > What you resonate most with these days that falls under "non-duality" or
      outside?
       
      I am not sure what you mean by 'outside'.
       
      I cannot answer all so a few comments in reply:
       
      > Do you see enlightenment as an immediate permanent shift or as a process with
      levels (overlooking for the moment how the concept "there is no time" negates
      the
      concept "process" as time-based & focusing on humans living in space and time)?
       
      Here is yet another opportunity for me to express
      my own view of this 'issue'.
       
      The idea of 'shift' is an interesting one; I can say
      that there is change of perspective (so to speak)
      but 'shift'? No 'shift' that I am aware of.
       
      If you substitute 'removal of obstruction' (to understanding),
      for 'shift', that might do it.
       
      To see _simultaneously_ the 'real' and the 'previous
      illusion', to see these together, is to be hit with a
      very large contrast which is (IMO) impossible to miss.
       
      The issue of 'time' is easily disposed of, it seems
      to me. 'Before', time is a very real concrete thing;
      'after', time is now seen as quite elastic, malleable,
      and in fact (perhaps ultimately) irrelevant; although
      we must admit and remember that 'time' is still a
      biggy for those in the 'before' dimension (so to speak).
       
      I guess the real issue is that the actual experience of
      contrast, as I describe above, cannot be transmitted
      conceptually. We may speak of 'before' and 'after' but
      the actual contrast is something that must be
      experienced to be understood. And you must keep in
      mind, that the 'realizations' which occur during and
      after the experience of contrast, are nonsensical to those
      who have not experienced the contrast.
       
      I have to say also that nothing 'goes away'; if
      anything, everything 'comes around'. If anyone
      expects 'issues' to resolve, merely by the 'process'
      of 'enlightenment', it is a mistake in thinking. And
      that 'mistake in thinking' is one of the biggest
      features in the 'before'; 'after', seen clearly as
      a mistake.
       
      I have many times said here that the word
      'illusion' is grossly misused, in discussions of
      'enlightenment'. There is no 'illusion' to dispel.
       
      There is 'disillusionment', though.
      See 'embarrassment' below.
       
      The contrast clearly shows, that 'illusion' is
      just as 'real' as 'reality'. We have the opportunity
      to take hold of an entirely new paradigm, which
      includes 'multiple interpenetrating dimensions';
      if you are familiar with the Vajrayana teachings
      of Bardo, you can intuit what this means.
       
      In the same way that 'money is just pieces of paper',
      we can state that the unenlightened, live in 'illusion'.
       
      To assume, as is commonly stated, that one
      reality 'expires' or can be thrown away, and
      that a new, more 'accurately aligned' reality
      dawns, is error. ALL realities are 'created equal',
      and this must be considered by the 'student'.
       
      There can be a huge surge of embarrassment,
      which must be accepted and dealt with, as one
      sees with clarity, how unclear one had been; those
      reluctant or not practiced in the art of 'swallowing
      the toad', may find this a mountain too steep to
      climb, and may decide to continue to eat imaginary
      steak.
       

      > Have you, to your own satisfaction & criteria been with people you consider to
      be
      awake? And/or extremely awake, somewhat awake, astonishingly unawake with
      strangely happily nodding followers?
       
      Without exception, every one of the 'masters'
      I have had proximity to, used (either deliberately
      or unconsciously!) one or more 'Siddhe', to
      create effects and impressions in the 'audience'.
       
      I have had a few really 'side-splitting' experiences
      with some of those 'masters', when it has occurred
      that my own 'mastery' of the same Siddhe, allowed
      me to 'cancel' theirs. This has led to more than one
      display of bad temper, and once I had to leave the
      auditorium, to avoid being jumped on by the 'guards'.
       
      That occurred when I awakened the just-hypnotized
      audience. I noticed that when their heads jerked up
      and their eyes popped open, that they were very
      shocked to realize that they had been put to sleep
      without their consent. There was also a great sense
      of disorientation, as the 'staff' were now in different
      places in the room, than they had been before the
      induction. The 'contrast' was too obvious to miss.
       
      > Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what do you see
      it as?
       
      My opinion is that 'enlightenment' is 'simply' a
      stage of maturation, which many people do not
      experience; our culture has not yet discovered
      the means of eternal youth, but it has perfected
      the means of eternal immaturity.
       
      I should say that one of the biggest 'realizations'
      for me, is that it is inappropriate to go around,
      'brandishing' enlightenment, like some sort of
      light-sabre. I would go so far as to say that to
      misuse it is to surely lose it.
       
      'Enlightenment' is not an 'extra', but is our
      birthright as human. It is not an 'elective'
      to be chosen; it is the natural movement of
      'studious approach to maturation'.
       
      That words can be put to it or not, is
      of little importance.
       
      There are certainly times when 'enlightenment' is
      very much out of place. One learns to trust the
      sense of those times. Learning continues, if one
      can respond properly to what is happening. Such
      response is rare, if one is 'stuck in enlightenment'.
       

      ~ ~ ~
       
      eric's response:

      hi josie,
      i make a special effort to answer your questions because in the best
      case you'll have three persons answer out of 800, life is designed
      so that slumber is the most comfortable state for cowards and spooks
      alike.
      this is why Gene and a bunch of others are precious, this is the
      only measure to a man, rather a giving sun than a sucking black hole.
      (even if the rays are not always a coherent laser beam)
      Note that your question have mostly value in mapping where you are
      at, at this precise moment of you spiritual quest but still have a
      universal value (it's often both).
       
      > What you resonate most with these days that falls under "non-
      duality" or outside?
       
      e# i don't understand this one, maybe it's ok if i say, the state of
      confusion of human culture and science proves that an elementary
      questionning at the source of their premises is made necessary, i
      call it nonduality.
       
      >
      > Do you consider yourselves sitting, standing, extremely alert,
      awake, enlightened, conscious, dreaming or "non-of-the-above-how
      dare you ask, isn't it obvious" or your own description?
      >
       
      e# i am not a realized egoless person like Greg or Jan for example,
      my experience of consciousness is a profound well-being, a rooting
      in self-confidence, that is here 24/7/365, if i wake up at night it
      is here, if i am in a difficult situation it is here like a physical
      feed-back and a psychological contentment.
      It is like lying blissfully forgetting oneself on a sunny beach, i
      am not aware most of the time. Especially since that state is
      exactly the contrary of anything that would call attention, it is
      rather the state where nothing calls your attention on yourself so
      personnal issue like "did you sleep well?" hardly make sense.
       
      > Is the idea/experience of enlightenment something you reserve as a
      description for a rare few, it's never happened, it happened to 3
      human beings ever, there is a small percentage of humans that are
      self-realized living currently, or how can one not see everything is
      awake including the mud beneath the lotus?
      >
       
      e# it is like, in some local place people have a mind busy with
      heavy issues and this mind is very busy with itself, and the whole
      rest of the world is neglected.
      So at my incomplete level of losing ego, everybody is the same yet
      some people make a big tension on the small place where mind
      operates.
       
      > Is enlightenment/self-realization/awakeness (overlooking
      temporarily that different teachers define these terms uniquely &
      differently and pointing to the general idea) something you aspire
      to or accept as direct truth in your own experience of yourselves?
      >
       
      e# to me egolessness is the absence of story or theory but the
      availability of resource that this 'no-state' releases in a master
      makes him available to the crowds and he often builds up a 'system'
      according to his background and in opposition to the
      attachments/identifications/fads of the time, all this a a skillful
      means to help seekers. but eventually the system has to be dropped.
      yet i dislike the master figures.
       
      > Do you see enlightenment as an immediate permanent shift or as a
      process with levels (overlooking for the moment how the
      concept "there is no time" negates the concept "process" as time-
      based & focusing on humans living in space and time)?
      >
       
      e# ok we may overlook things but it stiffens your question.
      i have no way to explain how year by year my nervous system has
      become more sensitive and flexible and how most human issues stop
      posing a problem (like: what is my future, my plans? where did i
      grow from? who am i to others? what is my death? etc).
      PLUS
      i have no way to explain how this progressive physical/chemical
      process (health has also considerably improved) is related to the
      final egoless 'no-state' i believe i witness in some people.
       
      > Have you, to your own satisfaction & criteria been with people you
      consider to be awake? And/or extremely awake, somewhat awake,
      astonishingly unawake with strangely happily nodding followers?
      >
       
      e# no i never met egoless people, apart here on the net, like you on
      NDS.
       
      > Do you feel any strong connections with realized masters no longer
      physically alive and if so who?
      >
       
      e# obvious almost daily, JS Bach.
       
      > Do you still/or ever attend satsangs and why?
      >
       
      e# 4-5 times i went to Thich Nhat Hanh sittings in NY, but it was a
      misunderstanding.
       
      > At this point in your awareness, in your lives, what do you
      experience a)if you attend satsang (in any role), b)when you
      interact/create/express online as in what draws you to remain
      involved?
      >
       
      e# while writing this, a few lines above i had a samadhi rush in my
      brain, like with a drug, when writing 'JS Bach', and thus making it
      clear to myself what he really means to me. It often happens when i
      write on the net, i don't think it means much, but it is, you might
      say, "epiphanies related to my interactions on the net".
       
      > Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what
      do you see it as?
       
      e# the question is, is there a point in worry, fear and hope?
       
      >
      > respectfully & sincerely, thank you for considering these points
      (& possibly answering)
      >
       
      equally so here,
       
      Eric
       
      ~ ~ ~
       
      Mark Otter responds:
       
      > I have a question (that turned into questions) for you. I am
      curious.
      >
      > What you resonate most with these days that falls under "non-
      duality" or outside?
       
      I resonate most with the sense of presence, that I most strongly
      feel in satsang, but am starting to feel more continuously.
      >
      > Do you consider yourselves sitting, standing, extremely alert,
      awake, enlightened, conscious, dreaming or "non-of-the-above-how
      dare you ask, isn't it obvious" or your own description?
       
      I see myself as having occasional glimpses of presence, and slowly
      beginning to experience it more directly on my own.
       
      >
      > Is the idea/experience of enlightenment something you reserve as a
      description for a rare few, it's never happened, it happened to 3
      human beings ever, there is a small percentage of humans that are
      self-realized living currently, or how can one not see everything is
      awake including the mud beneath the lotus?
       
      I feel strongly about this, that it is available to everyone and
      that encouragement to see the truth of this is very important.
       
      >
      > Is enlightenment/self-realization/awakeness (overlooking
      temporarily that different teachers define these terms uniquely &
      differently and pointing to the general idea) something you aspire
      to or accept as direct truth in your own experience of yourselves?
      >
       
      Both, albeit not concurrently necessarily...
       
      > Do you see enlightenment as an immediate permanent shift or as a
      process with levels (overlooking for the moment how the
      concept "there is no time" negates the concept "process" as time-
      based & focusing on humans living in space and time)?
      >
       
      I see life as a journey, and I don't see an end to it. The so
      called "enlightened" teachers that I seem to resonate with suggest
      that their own experiences seem to be continuing with no "end" in
      sight. (but who knows?)
       

      > Have you, to your own satisfaction & criteria been with people you
      consider to be awake? And/or extremely awake, somewhat awake,
      astonishingly unawake with strangely happily nodding followers?
      >
       
      Absolutely, I have felt that I've been with folks who are awake, and
      that feeling has been one of being no different from them. I've had
      a quivering heart and felt that that was the whole thing. Caring
      about all. I've also been in "satsang" and felt that it was all a
      sham. I'm not sure how much of that is the situation where I was, or
      how much was my projection depending on my own thinking.
       
      > Do you feel any strong connections with realized masters no longer
      physically alive and if so who?
       
      I have great respect for Ramana Maharshi, but feel more direct
      connection with some of the "descendents" thereof...
      >
      > Do you still/or ever attend satsangs and why?
       
      Yes, I attend satsangs with Pamela Wilson and Neelam whenever I can
      because when I do, I feel presence and the more I feel presence in
      such situations, the more I feel it elsewhere.
      >
      > At this point in your awareness, in your lives, what do you
      experience a)if you attend satsang (in any role), b)when you
      interact/create/express online as in what draws you to remain
      involved?
       
      The sense of presence is peacefull, joyful, and seems fundamental to
      me. It's what I've been looking for for so long...
       
      >
      > Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what
      do you see it as?
       
      I see it as letting go of local concerns and feeling a deep love for
      all being everywhere. It's going home.
      >
      > respectfully & sincerely, thank you for considering these points
      (& possibly answering)
      >
      > namaste,
      > josie
       
      It occurs to me to add one thought. I find "presence" whenever I
      look for it, so my main "spritual practice" these days is to look
      for it whevever it occurs to me to do so. The more I practice this,
      the more it occurs to me to do so.
       
      Love, Mark
       
       
      ~ ~ ~
       

      Jan B. responds:
       
      Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what do you
      see it as?
       
      @.When the mind is free from "spontaneous" deliberations irrespective the
      subject (enlightenment, matter, space, the nature of the mind and the
      shopping list for tomorrow to mention just a few) such a mind is at peace
      irrespective vicissitudes: no event can trigger a chain reaction of mental
      events.
       
      Peace,
      Jan.@
       
      Jerry's response:

      > Do you consider yourselves sitting, standing, extremely alert,
      awake, enlightened, conscious, dreaming or "non-of-the-above-how
      dare you ask, isn't it obvious" or your own description?
       

      I'm always aware of awareness, which is awareness aware of
      awareness.
       

      > Is the idea/experience of enlightenment something you reserve as a
      description for a rare few, it's never happened, it happened to 3
      human beings ever, there is a small percentage of humans that are
      self-realized living currently, or how can one not see everything is
      awake including the mud beneath the lotus?
       

      Everything shines as consciousness.
       
      > Is enlightenment/self-realization/awakeness (overlooking
      temporarily that different teachers define these terms uniquely &
      differently and pointing to the general idea) something you aspire
      to or accept as direct truth in your own experience of yourselves?
       

      I don't aspire to anything like that. I do aspire to live well each
      day, which means to look after my natural commitments.
       

      > Do you see enlightenment as an immediate permanent shift or as a
      process with levels (overlooking for the moment how the
      concept "there is no time" negates the concept "process" as time-
      based & focusing on humans living in space and time)? \
       

      I awoke into reality at age 2, very clearly. Experienced pure I Am
      at age 7. At age 28 it became a permanent knowing, accompanied by
      the expression, "There is only one day." At age 42 the I Am
      dissolved, and was accompanied by the utterance, "I arrived lighter,
      unscarred," which expressed a re-birth, a total freshening.
       

      > Have you, to your own satisfaction & criteria been with people you
      consider to be awake? And/or extremely awake, somewhat awake,
      astonishingly unawake with strangely happily nodding followers?
       
      I have affinities with people at different levels and it's clear
      that every person comes from a different base of knowledge, knowing
      and perception. I've never said to myself or to anyone else that so
      and so is enlightened or not enlightened. It doesn't interest me.
       

      > Do you feel any strong connections with realized masters no longer
      physically alive and if so who?
       

      > Do you still/or ever attend satsangs and why?
       

      No. Because there isn't any more reality there than on the street.
       

      > At this point in your awareness, in your lives, what do you
      experience ... when you interact/create/express online as in what
      draws you to remain involved?
       
      I remain involved in my lists and websites because it's good
      discipline and I have a commitment to making the world of nonduality
      available to people.
       

      > Is there any point to enlightenment in your opinion and if so what
      do you see it as?
       
      If consciousness or awareness is something you value and must
      investigate, there is no question of being a point. That's true for
      anything a person is driven to undertake. The undertaking itself is
      the point. If a person is looking for a point to a spiritual life,
      it might be to calm down and get a bigger perspective on things.
      That would be helpful in everyday life.
       
      ~ ~ ~
       
      Josie wrote:
      > to the one who wrote this and sent it privately
      >
      > > impressed with intellect, are we? :) these people are
      > > thinkers, honey. some day you will know the difference
      > > between a thinker and an enlightened being.
      >
      > you found me out. i'm easily impressed.
      > and also impressed in the most difficult of ways
      > perhaps you've seen the space age soft foam
      > that has memory now used in beds,
      > yup, that's me
       
      Gene Poole responds:
       
      You have had the inevitable
      confrontation with the bitter,
      holier-than-thou 'heart-based'
      type.
       
      Am I going too far, if I say that
      such 'types' are limited, and so
      seek to impose their limits onto
      others?
       
      Whatever the case may be, Josie,
      your exposition, below, is
      a magnificent and expansive
      sharing.
       
      Please 'take heart', when confronted
      by such an attack on your heart. The
      authoritarian 'types' who dare play that
      gambit, will have a much harder time
      of it than they can possibly imagine.
       
      ==GP==
       
      from Josie:
       
       my mind gets stimulated all over the place
       today by this room, the sistine chapel another,
       reading New York Times discussion of latest
       astrophysics research, & seeing it's my brother,
       learning neurobiofeedback & watching computers display
       measurements of differences between brains
       filled with worry and those who are consciously in alpha state
       watching my mother resignedly commit to watch my daughter
       while i agree to drive a teacher across countries to satsang,
       thinking i'm sorry its so difficult for her to see
       her daughter who had so much potential with
       the highest scores in those meaningless measures
       mesmerized, absorbed, in love with absolutely nothing,
       (what's it good for, say it again, ..absolutely nothing)
       but then you should have seen her face a few years ago
       when i thought i'd be a minister
       cause that was what i was told you do
       when you love god so deeply, deeper than any other.

       so the other day it was amazement about Shrek,
       yesterday words that were written,
       the day before that, by my friend's aversion
       to anything related to "spiritual" even though
       she's writing her own book about it all

       in fact i have a serious lack of loyalty
       i've got very little i could defend
       lots i guess i could pretend
       but a glance, a color, a word, a comma and
       i fall in love yet again
       i sit with addicted sex trade workers, politicians, policemen,
       professors, artists, musicians, the media, elementary children,
       men who've damaged their babies, people who want to die,
       from children to adults and those who have already tried,
       those tortured by horrific cruelty that could make anyone cry,
       & those golden & rich seekers with all the answers & more
       and you know what?
       i'm just impressed by it all, by the fact that anyone's still here

       i've decided for this moment i don't care about the difference
       between who's enlightened and who thinks,
       who has a better teacher, or a silence bigger than mine
       what matters to me is who's frightened, who's happy, who's inspired, who's
      real,
       those who genuinely care in spite of knowing better,
       and whether there is anything arising that i need or am drawn to do
       but that's just right now and i pledge allegiance to no other moment,
       you might find me selling flowers at your airport tomorrow
       in full resistance or a mini contraction or two, less even &
       especially if the airport happens to be in hawaii or paris

       but hey, i'm here, so are you..

       feel free to inform me
       let me know what you think i've missed

       love josie
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