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Highlights for Wed, Dec 1

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  • Melody
    NDHighlights for Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JUDI: When you have the guts to admit to yourself that you are
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 2, 1999
      NDHighlights for Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999


      When you have the guts to admit to yourself that you are suffering
      and you have tried every avenue there is to try and there is no place
      and no one else to turn to except yourself, then and ONLY then have you
      come to a place where real investigation and insight into yourself can
      take place. And what there is
      to realize is not some 'God' or some heavenly experience, but your own
      activity of seeking which is nothing but suffering itself. And when you
      see what you are have been doing you will drop it automatically like a
      hot potato and what is left is where the fun starts. :-) I recommend it.


      >Everything that is true of space is true of awareness.
      > In fact, they might be the same thing. If you put extra heavy-duty,
      industrial strength quotation marks around the word "cognitive", maybe you
      can say space is "cognitive." This would eliminate the difference
      between inside and outside and the separation between you and me and stuff
      in general, but it still leaves the question of source. Where does it come
      from? Mind doesn't seem quite the answer to me but???

      Dan: I resonate with the way you are looking at this.
      The idea of having to come from a source involves a cause
      and effect analysis, wanting a first cause. Cause and
      effect are a duality. If space is awareness, and nothing
      is outside of space/awareness, cause and effect are not-two
      in this awareness. Then, there doesn't need to be postulated
      any "outside" source. If there truly is no difference for
      you between inside and outside, as you described, where would
      you be able to locate a "source"?
      -- Peace in One --



      >We cant move past our belief
      in death until
      >we get to the cause of our fear of death. That would be the
      same thing. Our
      >guilt over "I-thoughts", makes us fearful of relinquishing
      it. Of course,
      >fear of physical death is only a symbol of the real fear of
      >relinquishment of "I". Get past the illusory guilt that is
      holding the
      >entire scam together and we see that there is no birth or
      death but only Life.

      Death has nothing to do with guilt, unless one's actions
      are causing death; in that respect, consider that not-acting
      can have the same effect. Guilt is an acquired feeling (by
      interpretation), the product of an authoritarian, repressive,
      materialistic society and is absent in several primitive
      societies. The force of bodily feelings (hunger, warmth, cold
      etc.) causes one to identify with these basic feelings and to
      "join"; the thought of ignoring (but not suppressing) them
      doesn't come to the mind. The result of these identifications
      is the "I" and it serves in learning the lessons of physical
      life in a relatively short time. As it is unlikely to
      discriminate between these basic feelings and emotions that
      will arise later, emotions will get "tagged" to the "I" as
      well. During the life of the body, the "I" thrives as the
      "doer, enjoyer, sufferer etc." and in the process of dying,
      this virtual structure will dissolve and there is no escape
      from it.. This is the root cause for fear and it survives the
      grave. So contemplating the act of dying and taking the
      consequences is most enlightening and can be far more
      effective than whatever path of meditation; although costing
      nothing, it can cut the crap in one go :)


      Andrew, Judi and Jerry on Adi Da:

      jerry wrote:
      > > ...in a way Adi Da HAS died, because his organization
      > > in the last couple of years has become an out-and-out
      > > religion called Adidam. It is a declared religion which
      > > publishes books for an explicitly stated missionary purpose.
      > > I feel that it is that missionary spirit that resulted in a
      > > change of the language. I sense that now the language is
      > > contrived...

      >Andrew wrote:
      > It's ass-covering language, like a legal contract or an insurance
      > policy. There's thin ice Adi Da skates gracefully around in the early
      > edition of his writing, in the later edition they've stuck up warning
      > signs and yellow tape. When I looked at the writing on the Adidam
      > website I wondered why people raved so about his writing, I tried to
      > read it and came away thinking "maybe there's something here, maybe not,
      > too bad it's so badly written." There was no flow there. But the early
      > versions of the same writing are totally different. Even in the early
      > writing, though, I wonder why he thinks he has to use so many words. He
      > makes what is simple seem complicated.
      > love, andrew

      His later stuff seems overly polished to me. Like many great
      geniuses, they do their work in the course of a year or two
      and the rest of their life is spent imitating themselves.
      Any one of us might see that phenomenon within themselves at
      some point. When one has said everything they can say and
      all one needs to do is luxuriate in suchness, words may be
      urged forth by a situation and they are words that are
      basically intentional repetition of other words. They are
      for the benefit of someone. They are no longer direct. They
      are copies of the original.

      Da clearly describes a stage of his work beyond which such
      copying may become manifest. He published Knee of Listening
      in '72 and in '74 published Garbage and the Goddess (every
      copy of which he tried to remove from circulation). In the
      latter he says: "In order to demonstate the Teaching, it was
      useful to make lessons of all possibilities for a time. But
      now I assume the Teaching has been manifested. It is
      contained in written and other recorded forms, but it is
      also contained in the living experience of this Community,
      in each of you. And I no longer consider it necessary to
      engage in various kinds of theatre in order to communicate
      the Teaching."

      However, the theatrics continued as the community spirally
      evolved. Perhaps the spiral has a significant dowagers hump,
      one that perhaps started a long time ago. Still, the factoid
      is that Da is a spiritual genius, which is to say he is on a
      par with Ramana, Nisargadatta, and those few.

      The ones that never sanctioned a formal community probably
      remained the freshest the longest, and will probably remain
      fresher forever.

      Fresher forever (or at least until this shower wears off),

      I saw a couple copies of Garbage of the Goddess at the Open Secret
      Bookstore in Marin with a pricetag of $250. I was surprised that
      they were even on the shelves, and that no one from the community
      had not run down there to buy them up.

      Andrew and Tim H:

      Andrew wrote:
      > To me there's no taking hold, no focus or aim, it's
      > like listening for a
      > sound on the very edge of inaudibility then allowing
      > it to draw me to
      > its source but there is nothing there, then staying
      > there and melting
      > into the nothing. Sinking through even good, beauty,
      > love, kindness, all
      > of these are relationship, this is beneath
      > relationship, no one to
      > relate, no movement, no God.
      > love, andrew

      I agree. That is my point. As far as 'when do I stop'
      I recognize this as a sound as well. Perhaps a name or
      sound like the guy on the movie Babe "That'll do
      pig... that'll do." when the 'work' is done. (The
      movie Babe is about a pig that is convinced that he
      can do the job of a sheep dog then enters a contest
      and beats all the dogs with a perfect score)

      It is my 'weakness' that causes me to run. I was born
      to run (Run Forest! Run!) and now I simply wait until
      I cross the line and hear that sound that simply melts
      away the veil, eases my mind and stills my soul. One
      thing is certain, I will never run out of breathe!

      It is a sound that can only come from the 'other' that
      I am not and is so full, complete, and absolute that I
      know that 'It is finished and the battle (race, game
      whatever) is finally over. Even if this means that, in
      the end, it was only me battling with my 'self'. Know
      what I mean?

      Thus, rather than be the best player in a lesser
      league (which I could easily do write books and
      lecture, sell-out, steal others work and rob them of
      resources...etc), I prefer to be the worst player of
      the greatest league.

      Know nothing, 'mean' what is spoken and written, let
      the influences fall where they may, and never take my
      hand off my gun knowing that, even if you draw first,
      I am still the fastest gun in the 'wild, wild west'.
      :o) (simply meaning I can not be fooled 'but' I allow
      myself to be fooled to see where the 'other' is taking
      me... get it?) You will never know what it is I 'see'
      and that is my secret.

      It is so clear to me that, after 'much' reflection
      that my life and its experiences were a 'set-up'.
      Through conditioning and programming and great acting
      that disovled away into poor acting. I realize that I
      was set up and, rather then allowing my 'self' to
      fall, I just kept on climbing.

      With 'no God', there is 'no hope' of that day (sound)
      ever coming. And I simply can not accept that no
      matter the consequences. Soon, all will become 'clear'
      as their is one last hurdle for me (death) and then,
      if it is as you say, I shall drop the 'gentle peace',
      compassion, belief in grace of God, and non-harm, and
      declare war on this world as I swoop back to pick up
      the saints who can at the 'least' say that they lived
      and died for a belief in something greater than this
      'hole' of 'holeies'.

      You see, Jesus screwed up in my opinion when he
      decided to leave John in prison to die and 'set-up'
      Judas to take the fall, which is an ultimate act of
      selfishness. It is the selfishness that exploited
      there very love that was given to Jesus.

      Jesus was not a God. Jesus was a man who was 'set-up'
      and/or lead to believe he was a God. Any one can be
      made a fool of in the right situation. And this world
      has made a fool of me for the last time.


      From Tim G:

      Dear List,

      Where do we get the idea that our bodies end at the edge of our skin? Why
      do we not see that the entire universe and everything in it is our body?
      If we do see that, how can we treat others differently than we treat
      ourselves? 'Others' *are* ourselves. There is no difference. When we
      treat others wrongly, so we treat ourselves. There are no others, the idea
      of 'other' is a false idea. We are all *one body*. And so, treating
      ourselves well, all 'others' are helped, the world is transformed when we
      transform ourselves. Treating 'others' well, we ourselves are helped, the
      world is again transformed.

      From Old Hag:

      So many delightful young'ns on this list seem to be standing on edge of
      cliff, ready for flight, excited but a little frightened by what might
      be in store, ....reminded me of this little something from Gibran.

      "How shall I go in peace and without sorrow? Nay, without a wound n the
      spirit shall I leave this city.

      Long were the days of pain I have spent within its walls, and long were
      the nights of aloneness: and who can depart from his pain and his
      aloneness without regret?

      Too many fragments of the spirit have I scattered in these streets, and
      too many are the children of my longing that walk naked among these
      hills, and I cannot withdraw from them without a burden and an ache.

      It is not a garment I cast off this day, but a skin that I tear with my
      own hands. Nor is it a thought I leave behind me, but a heart made sweet
      with hunger and with thirst.

      Yet I cannot tarry longer. The sea that calls all things unto her calls
      me, and I must embark. For to stay, though the hours burn in the night,
      is to freeze and crystallize and be bound in a mould.

      Fain would I take with me all that is here. But how shall I? A voice
      cannot carry the tongue and the lips that gave it wings. Alone must it
      seek the ether.

      And alone and without his nest shall the eagle fly across the sun."

      Happy trails, dears....through the trailless sky.

      Tim G:

      I wonder if even an 'informal community' such as NondualitySalon and the
      website, might not also have something of a binding effect, although less
      than that of the formal. It seems that to remain *totally* independent of
      all organization is the only way to guarantee that the 'freshness' you
      describe never goes away at all. J. Krishnamurti is a prime example. He
      realized how his own institution was about to trap him even before it got
      off the ground! And his writings retained their freshness until the day
      his body died. There was never an ounce of 'gloss' to a single word
      uttered by J. Krishnamurti.

      from Kristie:

      ACIM frequently considers guilt in the context of judgement, in effect
      saying that guilt is merely the flip side of the coin of anger......both are
      emotional states that arise from the dream......the illusion that we create
      when we consider the world to be the sum of our perceptions.....Both anger
      and guilt....are attenutated by judgement......surrender all judgement and
      anger AND guilt will disappear.......you cannot get rid of guilt.....it
      isn't real.......you can recognize the nature of the dream and be willing to
      have not guilt/not judgement/not anger.....the rest will be done for you....

      I don't think the issue is get rid of guilt......the issue is to recognize
      that one's entire world view is formed of judgements and that these
      judgements are the source of suffering, guilt, anger, judgement,
      attack.......(guilt is simply attack turned inward)......these are all
      symptoms of the warfare that engages the mind....ACIM says give up the
      fight, give up the idea of the fight, in this way give up guilt......the
      rest will be done for you.

      I believe this is simply another metaphor for describing the phenomenon of
      surrender or of "getting rid of all desire." Where there is guilt there is a
      desire to experience guilt or a belief that guilt serves a purpose. It
      serves no purpose except to create intellectual strategems that insure its
      projection into anger and harm; in short to justify the existence of the
      ego.....which in the ACIM is the self that is the product of illusion.....in
      and of itself not real......but the creations we create in our perceptually
      based interpretations of reality. What is truly real is not a function of
      the material world, or the perceptual world, it is the condition of
      love....a concept alien to the ego.

      I think when we focus on the effects of guilt and worry about whether or not
      we are experiencing it...or try to get rid of it.....we have simply deified
      and sanctioned the illusion that it has power.

      The ultimate peace is forgiveness......that state of mind that recognizes
      truth....that we are all One....in this state there is no separation and
      possibility of guilt or anger.

      "To love your brother as yourself".....this is the sum of ACIM's teachings,
      IMO. In fact you WILL love your brother as yourself.......What you do unto
      yourself you do unto others.......

      Sorry to see you go Elaine.....the languages are different......the message
      is the same........ACIM reinterprets the christian metaphor and highlights
      the relation between self and others and Self and others......the shift from
      personalities seeing personalities, to beings seeing beings....and the
      healing that is an innate part of that reciprocity........what we put
      out.....we believe about ourselves....what we believe about ourselves we
      project onto others. Understanding this does nothing.
      Giving up the fight does everything.....
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