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NDhighlights Sun. 14 Nov.

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  • andrew macnab
    Some regular posters to the Nonduality Salon are taking a break from posting for a little while. If you have thought of posting but thought your words would be
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 15, 1999
      Some regular posters to the Nonduality Salon are taking a break from
      posting for a little while. If you have thought of posting but thought
      your words would be lost in the flood...


      ...all along many of us on the list have seen glimpses of the ironic
      truth, that a mailing list by its very nature is in a paradoxical
      relationship to what is supposed to be "beyond words" and linear thought
      concepts. Many, many times the question has been posed, by various
      people in
      various ways, "How do we resolve this paradox?"

      The idea of moving into a "silent" period seems like a logical one. And

      ...I got my black jumpsuit, my Nikes, and my purple shroud. The
      Mothership awaits! Anyone for pudding?...


      Chris at Anunda gave me permission to share this with you all.

      "Wait! Am I crazy? Do I want to be reduced to the nothingness of a
      void just to be one? No way. Mind get busy and create everything again
      just as it was."

      "And it comes to pass that I created the heavens and the earth."

      Each person on this list
      or in my life, is a mirror ...
      a mirror of some part, aspect, archetype or personality of me
      that is either seeking expression, that I love
      or that I reject
      within my self ...

      If I cannot make peace between these personality archetypes
      within myself ... I cannot hope to make peace
      between myself and my mirrors ...
      you the people on this list.

      So I read the words you write ... and I feel a reaction ...
      go into the void, the vastness, the no-thing ..
      and return ...

      And, of course you are still here ...
      but is my reaction to you still here?
      Is there still conflict ..?

      If there is no reaction, no conflict,
      then what I was feeling was either the energy
      behind the words you wrote .. which I took on
      or some aspect of me reacting to your words ..

      The fact that there is no longer any reaction
      after returning from the void/no-thing
      shows that there is no longer any issue ...
      shows that the 'archetype/molecule' is at peace
      at one ... with the other aspects of me

      If there is still a reaction of any sort,
      this shows me that the mirror is alive and well (still needed)
      and that there is further work which needs to be done
      for at-one-ment to be found ...

      So I ask inside my self ... what is the mirror ..
      what unconscious memory is being triggered
      what is this mirror causing me to remember from the past
      that is unresolved ...

      and I return to the void/no-thing as often as necessary
      until the answer appears ...

      and from the answer, I learn, I evolve ..
      and return again to the void/no-thing
      with the answer
      until the mirror disappears ....

      By resolving the inner aspect
      then I am free ...
      free to make a choice as to whether
      to stay here on this list (or any other)
      or not to stay.

      I would like to thank the people on this
      and other lists
      for what you have allowed to grow
      in me is the consciousness to put into the written word
      that which I knew
      but could not speak ...

      You have allowed me to develop an articulation
      of words that do not seem to inflame or alienate ...
      and so another aspect of myself
      finds at-one-ment from within
      its own self judgement.


      Posted by FIRAK

      Maitreya Ishwara

      Unverified Beliefs

      Beloved Friends
      The following excerpt from The New
      Dawn is a challenge to your authenticity.
      No concept about truth is going to end
      all suffering just by believing it. That
      only happens when the ego dissolves
      permanently. And mostly follows
      purification of all systems with silent
      Take your Absolute beliefs as a
      hypothesis and verify them with direct
      experience. Beliefs alone don't help
      much, even if they are true.


      From: The New Dawn

      You are That

      Source is multidimensional.
      The ultimate truth is unembodied, intelligent awareness
      of consciousness. That, contains the potentiality for all
      creations in all space/time. Yes, you are That. But no
      embodied master can have more than a glimpse of That.
      Hence the mystery is never fully revealed to humans
      ever. The ultimate enlightenment is access to non-Being,
      the seventh body of God, the beyond.
      Non-Being is the void of creation. When you say I am
      That, it is also inaccurate because no human can create
      or destroy the universe. Yes, you and everything are
      made from That, but Source is also the mystery that
      cannot be known until you leave the body for the last
      time and all traces of your soul and being have
      disappeared forever. Then and only then are you fully
      The Self is the first stage of enlightenment, the fifth body
      of Source. It is not just something to recognise, It can
      only be discovered. Paramatman is the sixth body of
      Source. Full enlightenment gives access to the void, the
      seventh body of Source. That is non-Being, the void of
      creation. No human can stay there for long. When they
      return to the body the fragrance lingers around them, yet
      they can�t say much about it because there is no mind or
      any memory of That.
      Non-Being is beyond the capacity of anyone to articulate
      or remember fully. In the spiritual world imagination is a
      major trap. When a seeker declares, I am That,
      unfortunately that �I� is his ego. The remedy is to stick
      rigorously to direct experience.
      More helpful for a seeker is the negative, I am not, only
      That is. However, this is just another belief until it is fully
      realised. The truth believed is a sweet lie.
      The solution is to become an inner scientist and verify
      the hypothesis by direct experience. This does not
      contradict the teaching that says you just have to stop
      and recognise who you are. But it does require that the
      seeker is not actively guided into believing they just have
      to recognise the truth. Truth is not so cheap.
      Silence is the answer. The gap of silence a seeker
      experiences is a taste of the truth. It becomes
      permanent by remaining in the gap of silence for as long
      as possible, every day until the ego dissolves forever.
      The fundamental misunderstanding is that everyone is
      inherently free already.
      The truth is each soul is created by That to be deeply
      ignorant and slowly evolve in consciousness until the
      moment of permanent awakening. Existentially and
      functionally every seeker is the soul until they enter the
      Self. When that happens it is for the first time for each
      soul. You cannot remember what you don�t know. No
      seeker has any memory of That.
      The time of awakening is fixed by Source. There is
      nothing to do but what you feel, with the awareness that
      your feeling is the voice of Source guiding you moment
      to moment. Surrender to What is, gives freedom
      Silence is the answer. Those who are close to awakening
      will feel pulled into silence.
      There is only Source playing all the parts, but seekers
      don�t remember where they came from. Ramana�s
      enquiry is perfect. Ask: Where do I come from? And wait
      silently for silence.



      i am thankful you are back,,,,there is something in the way you bring
      words,,,that has moved me.

      what is the address of advaita?


      thank you,
      and what a beautiful innocent question,,
      "what is the address of advaita?"

      the void,
      i would say,
      Poste restante.......


      Posted to the Nonduality Salon Guest Book by ARUNA BYERS

      All this mental dialog about satsang leaders is totally
      missing the point. The satsang leader points the mind to
      the silence to know the Self and instead of going to silence
      the writers on this page are focusing thoughts on the
      satsang leader.


      Pointing to silence is what a satsang leader is supposed to do. How well
      does (s)he succeed in this? Anyone can appoint oneself as satsang
      leader. Does a recorded message from the satsang leader has the same
      effect as his/her physical presence? If yes, what if the recorded
      message is silence? Still the same effect? If yes, save money and the
      environment and stay home... Better still, pack your backs and leave for
      one of few peaceful African countries, where silence is abundant and one
      can live very well from just $2000 a year, never to be disturbed by
      Internet, telephones, traffic pile ups, TV and radio.



      >I've been trying to sort out a muddle that's been in my mind for a long
      >time. It's a muddle between yogacara and madyamika, awareness and
      >emptiness, and it goes like this. Emptiness (I think?) is The Leap Of
      >Synthesis. By that I mean if you put two things together, any two
      >things. you get something else. A thing is not only more than the sum
      >of its parts; it is OTHER than the sum of its parts. But it is
      >dependent on the sum of its parts. Somehow or another this must apply
      >to both physics and perception. Now the Doctors Of Emptiness say that
      >awareness is empty, meaning it is synthetic. The Doctors of Awareness
      >also say awareness is empty. But they mean awareness is empty of
      >phenomenality, it has no parts. Therefore, there is a distinct
      >difference of meaning of "emptiness" as it applies to awareness. Is
      >this correct? Is there a doctor in the house?


      We want to answer all calls for assistance. Much as I hoped someone
      more qualified in Buddhism would take this one, until then please settle
      for a paramedic. Some say the Buddha taught apparently conflicting
      truths only out of compassion and being pragmatic about the needs and
      capacities of different learners. The expression of his purpose to
      liberate all beings required this, so a distinction is made in
      Madhyamika doctrine between relative truth (based on empirical
      experience, it has provisional validity and is useful) and absolute
      truth (reality) which is void (empty of all characteristics by which it
      can be named or defined) of which nothing can be said, inexpressible!
      Actually both the Yogacara school and the Madhyamika school are two
      major branches in the Mahayana tradition. Another way to look at such
      different schools arising is that they are the result of the Buddha's
      teachings being understood differently by the hearers.

      The Yogacara is often referred to as "mind-only" (consciousness-only)
      school, which upholds the doctrine that all phenomena are empty because
      all arises from the mind. (Things in themselves do not have independent
      existence or essence; they are all dependent upon other things...hence,
      **dependent origination**) Perhaps this is what you mean by "a thing is
      dependent on the sum of its parts."

      Madhyamika, "The Middle Way" refrains from choosing between opposites
      and states that the true nature cannot be defined as either existence or
      non-existence, but manifests the characteristics of both. According to
      its founder Nagarjuna, the method of rejecting all opposites (dualism)
      is the basis of truth..and this is not "just a mental concept" but a
      method of actual practice.. attachment to duality means one first grasps
      after existence, then clings to emptiness. Or one uses emptiness to
      reject existence.

      One embraces noumenon to reject phenomena or vice versa...thus creating
      disputes, and perplexity. Little does one suspect that there is mutual
      identity between phenomena and noumenon. If we divide them and consider
      them separately, phenomena are not true phenomena; noumenon is not true
      noumenon. The non-dual method to destroy this attachment to extremes
      means penetrating into their very nature; it does not mean 'one.'
      Non-duality does not necessarily mean unity. Unity is one of the pair,
      duality/unity. Hence, non-duality implies non-unity as well. The Middle
      Way is to realize what is inseparable - indivisible, what is mutal and
      in common within pairs of opposites.

      The "discriminating" human mind can never grasp the whole truth. Thus,
      such a mind is bound to result in an imperfect understanding of the
      world as it really is. So this realization needs to be more than a mere
      intellectual understanding. Shantideva wrote:

      "Relative and absolute,
      These the two truths are declared to be.
      The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,
      For intellect is grounded in the relative."

      Then there is the lovely expression, "True Emptiness, Wonderful
      Existence. True Emptiness is not empty!" This is taken to mean that it
      is precisely because everything is empty that everything can exist. If
      things were truly existent, with a definite and enduring substance,
      essence or identity...then no change or flow would be possible. Because
      nothing has this enduring nature, everything becomes possible. Don't you
      love Buddhism!

      Well, thanks for giving me a chance to babble on..You seem to be
      basically right about a distinct nuance to the meaning of emptiness
      applied to awareness. And I think it's ok to use your mind, keeping in
      mind its limitations. Nothing like a thought that clears out some
      cobwebs, opens up some new space.


      No doctor, just patience.

      First of all - 'muddle' is a symptom of a condition common to humans
      called "Trying to understand conceptually that which is non-conceptual."
      Treatment: Stop.

      Secondly - Applying a program to physics and perception will have no
      effect whatever on awareness itself. (Of course, neither does anything

      Third - The terms "awareness" and "emptiness" are both attempts to point
      to essential reality which is undefinable. Any attempt to explain the
      nature of Beingness will result in discomfort known as "a rash on the
      mind" - an unscratchable itch.

      The only cure is to stop everything.

      Side effects of this cure have been reported as:
      peace that passeth understanding
      laughter for no reason at all
      being Beingness

      with love


      Let me add to what Xan and Gloria wrote. My info comes from several
      helpful books cited below. There are many differences between the two
      schools, but there seems to be one principal difference, and I think
      your question bears on that. That is, Yogacharins say that
      consciousness (they call it mind) *can* exist in the absence of
      objects. The Prasangika Madhyamikas say that consciousness *cannot*
      exist in the absence of objects. Here are brief descriptions of the
      schools, with aspects relevant to your question.

      All phenomena are of the basis of mind. There are no objects external
      to a perceiving consciousness. This is why external objects and all
      other phenomena are empty, because they do not exist independent of the
      perceiving consciousness. This consciousness is present whether or not
      there is the appearance of objects, so it exists inherently. The final
      and most subtle misconception is that subject and object are different
      entities. When this misconception is destroyed and everything is *not*
      thought or seen to be *different* from the percieving subject, then all
      other misconceptions are destroyed.

      Madhyamika (Prasangika or Consequence School)
      All phenomena are devoid of inherent or independent existence. That is,
      no phenomenon can exist without relationship with other phenomena.
      Because of this mutual interdependence, all phenomena are empty. Now,
      what about subject (consciousness) and object (phenomenon)? These too
      are interdependent. If the object cannot exist without the subject (as
      the Yogacharins say), then the subject cannot exist without the object.
      Therefore, consciousness *cannot* be present in the absence of objects.
      Consciousness is just another interdependent phenonemon, empty of
      inherent existence. When all phenomena including "I" or mind or
      consciousness are seen as empty of inherent existence, then all other
      misconceptions are destroyed.

      There are scriptural bases for both Yogachara and Madhyamika. The
      Madhyamikas see themselves as the highest school, and interpret the
      Buddha's teachings on mind-only as a compassionate or gauged teaching
      for those who have trouble understanding emptiness of inherent
      existence. Yogachara is sort of like some interpretations of advaita

      Here are some references on the two schools, though there seem to be
      more books available on Madhyamika:

      Univ.of CA Press, 1999. (I haven't read this, it came out in April)

      2. Jeffrey Hopkins. MEDITATION ON EMPTINESS. Wisdom Publications,
      revised edition, 1996. (This is perhaps the most authoritative
      explanation in English on the Prasangika Madhyamika school, and has
      about one chapter on Yogachara/Cittamatra).

      3. Jay Garfield. THE FUNDAMENTAL WISDOM OF THE MIDDLE WAY: Nagarjuna's
      Mulamadhyamakakarika. Oxford Univ. Press, 1995. (Very clear
      philosophical explanation of Nagarjuna's Treatise onthe Middle Way, in
      Western terms)

      4. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. OCEAN OF NECTAR: Wisdom and Compassion in
      Mahayana Buddhism. Tharpa Publications, 1995. (Accessible teaching on
      Madhyamika and its differences from Yogachara by a Tibetan teacher in

      With love

      Intro's to Sufism;


      >I know nothing about Sufism but I was thinking I might like to read
      >something that is succinct and comprehensive. Any recommendations?


      Read a few introductory books by Hazrat Inayan Khan...

      If the search is in vain, put a question on the news groups
      alt.islam.sufism and alt.sufi


      "Toward The One", if it's still being published??


      *On a Sunday afternoon*

      Surrounded by chaos,

      people talking, motors running,
      children running, leaves are blowing...

      a hustling, bustling of activity

      and yet, it seems so far away
      from me;

      as if I have been painted
      into someone else's picture.

      I watch, and only half listen,
      nodding and speaking as if on cue.

      This picture is not real to me.

      No texture, no taste, no fascination.

      And yet I watch, and I participate,
      as if I belong.


      Here is my vision statement.

      A Vision is needed because --
      Nonduality is freedom, not license.

      Freedom is responsibility, not avoidance of compassion.

      Defecating in a public reservoir is not an expression of nondual truth.

      For thousands of years, there have been teachers of truth and those
      who use true teachings for their own ends.
      Those who distort truth are noted for "using the talk" to
      "walk their own walk" and reach their own goals.
      Teachers are noted for "talking the talk" in service to the Way.

      Yes, wolves may come wearing the clothing of sheep:
      It is nonsense to think that no one can be set back, no one
      can be harmed. The nondual No One *is not* a 007 license
      to harm others and claim this is done in the name of love
      or to "play a game". The human potential for awareness is real,
      and therefore the possibility for interfering with
      or distracting that potential is also real.
      One doesn't enter a temple, yell obscentities at those who are
      meditating, and then tell them this is a word game to help
      them realize truth. One doesn't crash a bulldozer into
      a temple and then say this teaches the equality of all things.
      One doesn't throw a match on a gasoline spill under a car
      in order to show one's state of freedom.
      Awareness is appreciation of the context
      of the person, not ignorance of it.

      "By their fruits ye shall know them"
      This is the value of Time: it allows fruits to grow and be shown.
      Please observe the fruits of the seeds you sow.
      Ignoring what you see is not a path to nondual truth.

      -- with love and compassion for all of our growing pains --


      Thank you Dan for speaking beautifully and eloquently. For that we bow
      to you. You said that "Freedom is responsibility, not avoidance of
      compassion. Thus: Defecating in a public reservoir is not an expression
      of nondual truth."

      Those are strong words Dan but they need to be said. There is much to
      reflect on your whole post. Spiritual novices (for lack of a better
      term) often confuse nondual awareness with acting "wild and crazy." It
      is sometimes even claimed that nutty, rude, or obnoxious behavior on
      part of people is proof of their enlightenment since they are not
      attached to the behavior. Over more than three decades of being in the
      spiritual scene, I have seen quite a bit. There are some real gems out
      there Dan and you are one of them.

      With love


      Bottom line, what is help? Help is love. Douglas Harding said
      something like "Loose yourself and gain the world." That process, in my
      experience, amounts to, equals, is, comes out as, love. I loved a lot
      of people today. Was that helpful? YES!
      over and out, LB
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