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NDS digest, for Tuesday, June 15

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  • Melody
    To join the Nonduality Salon please go toSince Tuesday was a relatively quiet day in the Salon, I m also
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 16, 1999
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      To join the Nonduality Salon please go to
      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon>


      Since Tuesday was a relatively quiet day in the
      Salon, I'm also including some interesting
      dialogue from the Harsha Satsangh list.....

      (/\)

      Melody
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      What would happen if I learned to speak in statements? Would I then be
      able to know?

      If I began defining kates, would I be giving up anything?

      Why do we draw lines between what is known and what is not? What happens
      when the lines get crossed? Can there be a turning back?

      If I'm careful to dot my 'i's , will I see more clearly?

      Where do answers come from?

      Do the answers always change or is it that the questions do?

      No matter where I follow them,
      I'm still here.

      Or am I?

      kate

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: Tomas Diaz de Villegas <legasser@...>

      reflection on the illusion of being outside of energy

      It's interesting how the thinking/knowledge function makes it seems that
      there is a "you" who is looking out at everything- even when that
      "everything" has been accepted to be, fundamentaly, just unknowable energy

      there is the idea (which interprits memories and sensations and forms
      perceptions) that a seperation exists

      "I" over and above or outside of energy and the "object" isolated from the
      background and/or backdrop of energy

      or

      me, "the witness" or "observer", seperate from the energy which is the
      object

      but here's the kicker!

      that very thinking function which establishes this division is itself a
      product and form of energy!

      the interpritor is energy, the world is energy, the thought, sensation,
      feeling is energy, reaction is energy

      each and every thought is energy

      each and every image is energy

      each and every disowned emotion, feeling, reaction, object is energy

      energy looks upon itself

      energy reacts to itself

      energy moves itself

      energy experiences itself

      energy includes and is beyond experience

      Tomas

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      a conversation
      between Glo and Jan....

      Glo:
      > I read a true story re:Skinner. He and his students once trained some
      > chickens to dance by using food rewards to demonstrate the principles of
      > behaviorism, and after the experiment was over, someone took the dancing
      > chickens out to entertain the public. Then there was an uproar and charges
      > of "cruelty" over requiring these chickens to continue dancing,
      > so they were
      > quietly retired. Yet how many people live their whole lives as "dancing
      > chickens"??

      Jan:
      Probably everyone, until moksha is attained. There is even more to it: a
      behavior that is assisting greatly is pleasing those, higher in hierarchy
      (eventually including God). This behavior is absent in chickens but present
      in young children and for instance, dogs.

      Glo:
      > Whatever it is (grace?)..that enables us to become more aware of that
      > conditioned self "dancing" (however illusory it may ultimately be), that
      > process of stepping in the right direction certainly seems to give a nice
      > illusion of more choice and freedom..even to the point Jan mentions of
      > seeing that "self" dissolve. So I think we are at least "predestined" to
      > experience life as a "choiced" process... we ARE here, after
      > all... and how
      > can one avoid choosing and making decisions? It may be that resisitance is
      > futile ultimately, but at what point does one realize this and
      > surrender to
      > how it really is??

      Jan:
      One doesn't see the self dissolve. Although called a meme, it could be
      conditionally hard-wired and on attaining moksha the fuse is blown. The
      accompanying effects of the attainment are rather suggestive of that. The
      difference between having to make a choice and having no choice can be
      attributed to intuition or when the majority of tendencies has vanished,
      processing speed.
      []

      Gloria:
      > Doesn't our "karmic fate" also rest on some underlying notion of
      > our having
      > created it by past choices that were made? Just to throw in
      > another religion
      > and a few more monkey wrenches. If its all good and all God why
      > does it seem
      > so otherwise messed up?? How do you explain that to the uninitiated?

      Jan:
      There isn't a good explanation if it is seen seriously; life is a game and
      that "explains" why the mess, however bad it may seem to be, will have a
      "happy end". This is a hard nut to crack for someone suffering badly.

      []
      Jan continues:
      Social security is one of the examples where some acknowledge the precedence
      of fate over free will. When it comes to drugs, the dangers are known and
      yet there are users. Instead of free will, I would say the desire for
      enjoyment or the fear of pain is what propels into action but it seems a
      choice for someone who isn't ready taking the risk, required to be taken for
      the enjoyment or to avoid suffering.
      ------
      Glo:
      [] My point is
      > just that
      > even the dancing chickens (the people ones) would describe themselves as
      > choosing to dance. I'm not sure its so helpful to the "uninitated" to
      > explain oneself or to ask them to eliminate concepts and change beliefs.
      > Sometimes we merely create more barriers by highlighting our
      > "differences"... Perhaps our moving one step closer to them??

      Jan:
      The chickens would associate dancing with food. Liking the food, they will
      learn to like dancing. Animals can learn anything by associating a certain
      performance with getting food. Actually, dogs are domesticated to the extent
      that they will continue to perform when the reward is changed from food to
      verbal approval. Habit mind only requires memory and a reward. For playful
      animals like dogs the habit turns out to be reward itself. Habit mind plays
      an important role in many sadhanas (replaceing bad habits by good ones) and
      practices like pranayama and japa.
      ------

      Jan and Glo's conversation
      continues....

      -
      > Jan:
      > A repost on memes (from an article by Susan
      Blackmore in New Scientist):
      > ------------
      > ----------------
      > "Hold out your arm in front of you. Whenever you feel like it, of your
      own free will, flex your wrist. Repeat this a few times, making sure you do
      as consciously as
      you can. You'll probably experience some kind of decision
      process, in which you hold back from doing anything and then decide to act.

      Now ask yourself, what began the process that led to the action? Was it you?

      Neuroscientist Benjamin Libet of the university of California in San
      Francisco asked volunteers to do
      exactly that. A clock allowed the subjects to note
      exactly when they decided to act, and by fitting
      electrodes to their wrists, Libet could time the
      start of the action.More electrodes on their
      scalps recorded a particular brain wave pattern called
      the readiness potential, which occurs just before any complex action and is
      associated with the brain planning its next move. Libet's controversial
      finding was
      that the decision act came after the readiness potential.

      It looks like there is no conscious "self" jumping into the synapses and
      starting things off. This and other research has led me to believe that
      the idea of
      "self" is an illusion.


      Gloria:
      > Uh... there may be a lag time between when the preceeding subconscious
      decision is made and when the person becomes consciously aware a decision is
      made. There are like tons of subconscious information always being
      processed in the background, simply because it works faster than our
      conscious, verbalized self can become aware. Perhaps this readiness
      potential being
      measured is just that subconscious process happening?? So how "personal to
      self" is the subconscious mind?? I mean it does record "our personal
      experiences" of life and it does not surprise me in the least that a
      sub-process
      would precede every conscious thought and act and
      decision. So what?

      What does that prove? I think along with simple
      imitations of others or what is acquired from genes and memes (in
      potential, if not actualized), there is
      the self_aware_of -itself..a "self-consciousness" which sorts thru all this
      input (both sub-and consciously) and attempts to make sense of all the
      data, a chooser who may be more or less "free to choose." That a part of
      my"self"
      is subconscious or not "just me" but shared with others..how does that make
      it any less a "me" to be experienced?? Why not be both (personal AND
      transpersonal)?? I know.. I cannot find this "only me" self, either..I mean
      its ok not to have attributes or be like set in stone. I guess the "me
      sense" just is consciousness being conscious. So why do you say that
      is a no-self?

      Jan:
      If there would be a self, making the decision to act, it would make sense
      if the acknowledgment of the decision would at least be simultaneous with
      the readiness potential. I don't know what the test persons had to say to
      acknowledge decision but if any verbalism will do, the response time can be
      very short. In my case, the experiment would be impossible as any task is
      immediately absorbed by the mind and from then is executed as a kind of
      habit without any sense of decision. The subconscious mind only records
      everything until attainment of moksha. From then, it records just factual
      information, not the emotion(s) accompanying the act of recording. The
      conclusion that can be drawn is, self is a feeling that results from
      continuing identification and this is the reason for the delay. It isn't
      without reason the path to liberation could be called the road from personal
      to impersonal as a quote from Purohit Swami shows:

      [...] "The yogi is attached to his personal God, prides himself in being
      his devotee, his son, dedicates his life to him, sings his glory, enjoys
      his sense of duality, refuses to merge himself into his God, refuses to become
      God. God initiates him into this last stage, when the yogi says: 'I am
      spirit, the personal Self is the impersonal Self', leaves all for God,
      lives there for ever" [...].

      This too indicates transition to the absence of a "me". No doubt the
      experiments will be repeated with improved brain scanners sensitive and
      fast enough to detect the cerebral activity of decision. It won't be found...

      Jan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From the HarshaSatsangh list.....

      Jan wrote:

      The Self doesn't have a location, whether inside or outside of the body.
      But there are some references to
      the spiritual heart (to the right of the chakra
      on the axis) by Upanishads and Ramana . The third eye is connected with
      individuality and your question served as
      a reminder. When duality is no more (no "me"), there still is a sense of
      individuality and this is referred to as +I+. However, in the course of
      events this "rest" individuality is transformed into what could be
      approximated as "radiant space" and it coincides with
      the absence of the third eye from what I call "observable
      pranic map". Anyway, this "radiant space" is devoid of
      any sense of individuality. No search was done for scriptural verification
      of this.

      Gloria Joy Greco:
      I don't know that anyone writes about the energy that is left in this.
      It is really quite interesting, I can't find words to describe this
      experience. Radiant space is an interesting description but it doesn't
      quite go far enough. It is an ever present void, usually one things of
      void as being empty, it is empty of the human condition... but rather then
      empty it is intensely unified, full and never changing, the words "original
      state" comes to mind. It is a transcendental permanency which does not
      flucuate...an active silence which has no boundaries.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Harsha offered a quote from Purohit Swami:

      "Worldly power is intoxicating; spiritual power is more intoxicating; but
      when the yogi refuses to be drawn into it, his mind refuses to love and
      hate, accepts what comes without effort, as the result of past karma. There
      is no new desire, no new fuel to feed the fire, the last embers are fast
      dying out, reduced to cold ashes, the last impressions on the mind die out,
      and the mind finds its rest in Self, dissolves itself in Self, loses its
      identity, loses its personality, becomes Self itself."
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