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Highlights, Sat, Oct. 16

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    TIM: There s a great cure when feeling perplexed. Just sit back, close your eyes and mentally (or out loud) chant OM until everything is gone but OM (it
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 17, 1999
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      TIM:

      There's a great cure when feeling perplexed. Just sit back,
      close your eyes and mentally (or out loud) chant OM until
      everything is gone but OM (it shouldn't take long, if you're
      paying attention to the sound).

      The Buddhist "nam myoho renge kyo" also seems to be
      excellent for clearing the mind. Slow and low seems to be
      most effective.


      ```````````````````````````````````````

      Anyone who thinks "I left" has no understanding of the
      nondual. Can I, who am Presence, leave? Do you not
      experience Me in deep sleep? Am I not (with)you always?


      ```````````````````````````````````````

      There is OM. OM is "I don't know" with a turbocharger.

      ```````````````````````````````````````

      Ya know, this nonduality stuff does funny things to a
      person. I can't watch a movie anymore with even the
      slightest touching scene without a tear running down my
      cheek. If the scene involves love and is very moving, I
      find myself completely blinded by tears for minutes
      afterward. Luckily, it doesn't seem to bother me, even in a
      crowded theater where people would notice.

      Let's have a fight over who is the servant :-) Wouldn't it
      be wonderful...
      or maybe we can simply serve each other.


      ___________________________________________________________________


      RAINBO:


      For me [nonduality] is to bring life to the office the
      office to life and to play at all of it ... which everyone
      loves...
      knowing everyone is doing their best with what they have
      where they are right at that moment ... it is easy so that
      there is nonduality there ... when it isn't easy ...
      and there are waves in the still pool ... i come read here
      ...
      and bring the pool back there ... :-) so, thank you all
      for being here ... there's a dolphin who taught me how to
      do this :-)

      _______________________________________________________________

      DAN RESPONDS TO ANDREW:

      ANDREW: There's a fear of annihilation, death, ultimate
      loss, which presents a barrier. It is as real as stepping
      off a cliff, a plunging sensation in the pit of the
      stomach. I'm wondering how if the separate self does not in
      reality exist it can feel this fear.


      DAN: The deepest barrier is at the core of the human race's
      "mind". Intellectual answers don't work here, this is how I
      hear what you're saying. This fear I view as an aspect of
      the desire for continued existence.

      The fear is simply the "recoil" reaction against perceptions
      that indicate the inevitability of not being able to
      indefinitely maintain and continue "existence".
      I agree that looking deeply and clearly into this
      desire/fear is very useful.

      My perspective here is that the separate self doesn't need
      to be real for a collective desire and fear to be generated
      and maintained. If all behave according to a belief that
      existence for a separated self is real and possible and that
      belief functions as a key to the working of the "relative
      mind," then the results of ensuing behavior become the
      conditioning that maintains the belief (and the
      desire/fear). In other words, the interaction of perceived
      need, belief, behavior, and consequences function as an
      ongoing "loop" regardless of the illusory nature of any
      truly separate self.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      ANDREW:

      'Separate self' is the story of the movement of desire/fear,
      the line it draws. (song it sings) The movement is
      intricate, many frequencies harmonic and chaotic, a unique
      combination making an individual. All the pluses and
      minuses add up to zero. 10000 --> 1 --> 0.

      ____________________________________________________________________
      ANNETTE:

      Becky, there is an experience one has where the "pains of
      the world are felt as one's own, yes, this is very valid and
      very intense :-)
      [...]

      JAN:

      One could say, identifications won't disappear without
      having known their existence so no one can escape from a
      period of being strongly reminded of pain; the power of
      perception can increase to the extent that past, present and
      future will merge. So as Annette says, it can be very
      intense. You can't run or hide from it.

      The major cause of this suffering is not having undergone
      pain, but having caused pain to "others"; ignorance of the
      fact there are no "others" isn't an excuse. Not knowing the
      laws of nature doesn't prevent these laws from operating..

      So jokingly, Buddhism could be called the path to take when
      it is "too late" (having caused suffering already and
      suffering the consequences) whereas Jainism could be called
      the path, intending not to cause suffering at all (Ahimsa).

      Purohit Swami comments on Ahimsa:
      "All life is sacred, all life is one; no one has a right to
      question the sacredness of another, no one has a right to
      commit violence against another. The yogi who wants to find
      the unity of life, should not break that unity. Thought,
      word, or deed, unconsciously willed, may create misery. Men
      differ in temperament, character, environment, but they all
      stand on the one rock of Self, and when man commits violence
      on man, he commits it on himself; he may not know the law,
      but the law will claim him, if not here, certainly
      hereafter."

      ____________________________________________________________________

      DAN RESPONDS TO GENE:

      DAN: Gene, You raise a point that I find intriguing -
      meta-awareness. (This is related to metacognition, the
      ability to think about how I think.) Meta-awareness looks
      thusly: Can I be aware of how I question, the nature of
      questioning itself? Can I be aware of the
      "questioning-awareness itself"? If so, what kind of
      awareness is *this*? Calling it meta-awareness hints at a
      multidimensional being, unconditioned by time and space.
      This meta-awareness also is involved in looking at the
      effects and limits of language and thought, as you indicated
      later in your message.

      GENE: To realize that doors can be opened, is useful; it is
      also useful to know that a peek inside can reveal that we
      need not pass through those doors. The ability to open
      doors is necessary, passing through is optional.

      DAN: Yes, a very useful observation, Gene. Indeed, if I am
      aware from "meta-awareness", then I see the door from the
      "other side" and the whole idea of opening it is no longer
      appropriate.

      GENE: I am with another person, I am looking and we are
      talking. Beneath or above the level of conversation, I am
      remembering to observe myself. I am aware that I am
      observing myself, and that I am also observing this other
      person, who is observing me (but is he observing himself?).
      There is so much monitoring going on, so many points being
      viewed and viewed from.

      Suddenly I am aware that the entire process is quite
      effortless, and that what is observing, is awareness. I am
      aware that I am aware of the observational powers of
      awareness, and it is by awareness that I am aware of this.

      For me, in this way, is the question of 'a separate self'
      resolved, in the dynamic of relating, rather than in the
      abstract of 'offline' considering.
      Even now, I find no satisfactory way to express now, what I
      'know' in the moment of actual being-with; so my point is
      that it is one thing to consider this question of 'a
      separate self' as a puzzle, but another to consider it while
      actually being-with another. It is the dynamic
      being-experience which is satisfying to me. In that
      recognition, I realize the benevolence of this 'separate
      self', that it is aware of itself, that it loves itself. In
      this recognition, any sense of separation seems to
      evaporate, leaving only warmth and good feelings.

      DAN: What you are considering here, Gene, I've looked at as
      well. It's natural enough to be aware of oneself with
      another, and aware that the other is aware of "this one",
      and viewing communication as revealing mutual "other
      perceptions." When awareness arises "in the midst of this"
      it's quite a feeling. I do associate awareness as such with
      the feeling that one is worthwhile, able to contribute, able
      to release unnecessarily limiting or distorting ways of
      thinking and reacting. Awareness as such sometimes "bursts
      through" the mutual perception of the "other" and it's quite
      remarkable to be talking, dealing with these mutual
      perceptions, and being aware of the awareness that is aware
      of each and all simultaneously.

      GENE: Perhaps... this has something to do with the typical
      Hindu prescription of a living Guru, as the ultimate and
      necessary step of resolution in these matters. Perhaps it
      is the living Guru who can recognize and thus share, the
      living 'truth' of Being. Perhaps also, this is how it is
      resolved to overcome scriptures, with knowing.

      DAN: We had a long-ago conversation in which you used this
      term and I was baffled. Now, it is more clear to me the
      meaning you have for the term "living human Guru." If I
      reframe this concept as "living relational awareness" is
      that nearly equivalent? Then, I see this "living human
      Guru"
      as "working through" Jesus, Mary Magdelene, me, you, anyone
      who is "infiltrated" by the Living One, anyone whose
      awareness in relation allows arising of One beyond
      relation. "Where two or more are gathered, I am in the
      midst of them."
      "The Kingdom of Heaven is in the midst of you." The One
      beyond relation (with no other) lives in relationship *as*
      relationship itself.

      ______________________________________________________________________

      TIM RESPONDS TO PHIL:

      PHIL: Earthquake. It's all illusion. Enjoy the show.
      Lessee who gets piqued at that! ;)

      TIM: Anyone with a deep nondual perspective should be able
      to respect that statement. What is death? Were we ever
      born? Can we be killed? Are we matter, or are we spirit?
      Can we take the "long term" perspective and see that we are
      eternal beings, and death is nothing but a minor transition,
      if even that?

      Just a one hour, very deep meditation on death will show
      that these things are true. Grace Herself supplies the
      conviction.

      Supposedly, Seattle is due for a huge earthquake "any day
      now." I've heard predictions as high as 8-9 on the richter
      scale. Enough to level the city completely and kill 75% of
      her citizens.

      It may be good to let this body go, to be free of that
      constriction. Often I feel I've lived too long already.
      It's hard to live in physical form.

      ______________________________________________________________________

      XAN:

      Funny thing about silence- you just can't get rid of the
      stuff.
      It's Everywhere !!!!

      Also funny is the idea of a Me capable of pretending Silence
      has been covered over by the insubstantiality of thoughts.

      One good thing about giving up trying to understand the
      impossibilities.
      I giggle a lot more.
      Silently.

      ___________________________________________________________________

      PHIL:

      Sometimes there is a definite impression that the world is
      just an image of a spinning gyroscope. It spins and sways
      and teeters. In deep sleep and death it vanishes.
      Meanwhile, in the waking state, round and around it seems to
      go. You "leave" and then "return" -- and yet you really do
      not move at all.

      Today just now watching a movie an insight into phenomenal
      nature came into being. The movie appears to unfold
      sequentially, like a passage of time. And yet it is
      simultaneous in fact. All the elements of the film are
      present in the film reel. A certain Greek philosopher
      --Plato I think
      -- called time a "moving image of eternity". That seems to
      fit here. All the elements of "this life" are indeed
      present now, like the elements of the film. There is
      apparent coming and going, but really nothing is happening
      the way we think it is.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      PETROS QUOTING BYRON KATIE:

      "It takes an absolute love of God. Is it 'I love God,' or
      is it 'I love God sometimes when he's giving me the reality
      I want?' War is what is. It's nature. It's what is
      sometimes. It's not personal. If someone (God, 'what is')
      pulls my baby from me -- if that's what it takes, I'm
      there. Take the baby. Tear my baby from me. Throw it in
      the fire. What does it take for me to get this thing? What
      does it take for me to understand that I am a lover of 'What
      is, God?' My discomfort *is* my war with God. It's my war
      with reality the way it is, and not the 'loss' of my baby.
      You see, there are no choices. What is, is. When you know
      that, it's over. And it's beyond full acceptance, it's the
      love of itself, the love of God. There is nothing
      terrible. Shall I say it again? There is nothing
      terrible. There has never been anything terrible. There
      will never be anything terrible. But when we get to the
      baby thing, we're getting down to our sacred little concepts
      now.
      . . . Me, me, me, me in the name of the baby. I'm the
      one in hell. It's all about you're destroying my dream.
      That's all. You take my baby from me, you're messing with
      the illusion of I'm the mommy, this is the baby, there's the
      daddy, we're going to raise it, happy-ever-after fairy
      tale. But tearing the baby away -- that's the higher.
      Because it snatches your story from you and makes it
      apparent in your face -- nothing's real short of reality.
      The baby's gone and you're left with you and your thinking."

      "I want you to have what you want. Because that's what is.
      But if you come to me, and you present yourself in such a
      way that is asking, or is interpreted as an asking, then I
      am going to take that. I'm going to get your baby and I'm
      going to throw it in the fire, your baby love. It will give
      you, beyond a concept, that which you wanted really. It
      will leave you as That."

      "And I'm not speaking of not holding onto your baby with
      your arms and your cries. I'm speaking only of how you hold
      onto the baby internally -- how loud is the screaming
      there?"

      ___________________________________________________________________

      JUDI:

      You know what I find interesting is that there really is no
      enlightening anybody else. People are gonna get it when
      they're gonna get it.
      And no one knows how or when that is going to occur. The
      spiritual path is each person's individual life itself, like
      a fruit on a tree each one ripens and falls. In other
      words, it's a totally private affair.
      There is no teaching. Should come as a shock to some of you
      guys who are looking for a teaching, or even worse, those of
      you who think you've found one!!! A sobering affair.

      ______________________________________________________________________

      JERRY:

      Sometimes in Nova Scotia it gets so cold you can't slip on
      the ice because it doesn't melt from the friction of the
      boot. At least that's how it seems. Things aren't so rigid
      in this email community. I sense a slipperiness, a lack of
      footing, but not without assurance and poise.

      ___________________________________________________
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