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Highlights, Thursday, Oct. 7

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  • umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxx)
    The Nonduality Salon was very busy Thursday, which means many posts as good as the ones here were left out.
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 8, 1999
      The Nonduality Salon was very busy Thursday, which means
      many posts as 'good' as the ones here were left out.


      As for vows of poverty and chastity - these days, the people
      I know following spiritual paths are uninterested in any
      kind of vows at all. Do you know anyone taking vows? The
      satsang teachers sometimes take on celibacy, but it's not as
      deep as it's claimed to be - it's very emotionally reactive,
      either to avoid their partner or because their partner has
      been cheating.

      Come to think of it, I have heard a few of the devotees
      going celibate simply because their teacher did.

      Poverty/prosperity - I know people who are uncomfortable
      with the issue of money, think it's un-spiritual. To get
      more money, one of my friends is practicing Chinese
      energetics for the mind so that she'll be able to attract


      We can bemoan the (post)modern trend to instant
      enlightenment but there's little to do about it, as this is
      our nature, at least so we are told. More and more will be
      awakening to their true nature (and it can only happen
      instantly, even if after years of sadhana) and
      simultaneously more and more will be getting distracted by
      the attractions of premature enlightenment syndrome. Maybe
      we need a government board to certify these guys.


      Dear Members, I would like to explain how I came to develop
      an interest in Non-Duality.I was attending a Gnostic
      organization for three years,and was told that there was an
      ongoing war between the White Lodge and the Black Lodge.We
      were encouraged to defend ourselves against the Black
      Lodge,who actually comprised the vast majority of the human
      race.I found myself getting more and more alienated from my
      fellow beings,and I left the organization three months ago.
      I feel that the way forward lies in the ideas of Non-Duality
      and Alchemy.

      Nonduality is the end result or the Ultimate Reality,whereas
      Alchemy is a symbolic representation of the means to that
      end.Alchemy should not be understood as prescribing specific
      practices,but rather that it gives insights into the nature
      of Consciousness which could have an influence on how one
      leads one's life.

      It is hard to see Nonduality in the maelstrom of daily
      life,whereas Alchemy recognizes the opposites
      (e.g.intellect/feeling,my point of view/your point of
      view,asceticism/indulgence ,light/darkness,love/hate),and
      points towards their reconciliation.


      This is the link to your site:


      It makes me think of some of Lobster's work on alchemy,
      which is found at:


      In fact, I have just ordered Lobster's book, Alchemical
      Solution, by A. A. Aziz, from a distributor in England.

      Correct me if I'm wrong. The nondual expression of your
      writings rests in statements such as:

      "The task of alchemy is to unite physical reality with the
      spiritual world,and Consciousness is the bridge between
      these two realms."

      As well, there are other statements speaking of the
      reconciling of opposites. This all bears on nonduality,
      although the nondual, most radically, is something about the
      atmosphere in which all this uniting and reconciling occurs.
      It's kind of a 'source' of it all, a 'nothingness'.


      Who is enlightened? Who wants to know?


      Enlightenment is "default" so that's not the issue. A piece
      of rock is enlightened just as well; the rock is failing the
      apparatus to recognize that. At the same time, the rock is
      failing the apparatus to care about that either. So
      obviously, the act of recognizing requires sentience -
      available at least to mammals. Even a cat or a dog can
      recognize the real nature; it doesn't require thinking or
      verbalizing. But only humanoids can realize that their real
      nature can include the mind-body in a literal sense; this
      realization can be described as a series of transformations,
      requiring intelligent cooperation and it has been, still is,
      the concern of conventional paths.


      For me, it seems that no matter how much intellectual
      knowledge I may have about the Qabalah, it matters not one
      whit, if I cannot touch the energies of the Sacred Tree.

      BTW, Ken Wilber says his Witness is present, even in
      dreamless sleep(it was the last stage for him)except when
      he's been drinking wine the evening before

      Makes one wonder where this Witness goes then, doesn't it?

      That could be called alcoholic regression :) A "normal"
      development would be for "Ken Wilber" to go, ending the
      duality of "the Witness and me".

      Perhaps in this day and age we are in a transition stage
      from what used to be sacred property of certain long
      established teacher/student-traditions and its 'aftercare',
      into non-teacher enlightenment. In an age where the
      mind/body functioning has evolved to a point where it no
      longer requires this kind of protective environment.
      I think in many cases the mind/body functioning in western
      society has gained such stability (eg. no worries about
      survival), that it is indeed able to look after this
      (supposed) path 'toward' and 'aftercare support' all by
      itself, without the aid of a teacher.

      This 'aftercare support' may take many forms (NDS list?). By
      the way, I don't think a teacher is someone who proclaims
      him/herself to be a teacher. I think it is The Student who
      establishes and recognizes someone to be a teacher. Not the
      other way around. People may consider you to be a teacher,
      and you may not even be aware of it (you may not even like
      it). Still, one has always great freedom to accept this
      role or not, and to do so, will always be accompanied by a
      lot of criticism.
      My favorite quote on this matter:

      "When you do something right, there will always be those who
      criticize you; when you do something wrong, there will be no
      one around to stop you."

      Jan: It is obvious that a simple teaching like nondualism
      does have a disadvantage; it is fairly easy to grasp and at
      the first glimpse of recognizing one's real nature, the
      proclamation of another EO follows.

      Dan: IT has another disadvantage: IT has nothing to do
      with "grasping a teaching." Those who think they have
      grasped IT, haven't, and those that identify it with a
      teaching are mistaken. Those who make claims are doing just
      that, "making claims." The only thing that matters here is

      I don't find it reassuring that there are spiritual
      authorities defining how many years or lifetimes are needed
      for awareness. I also am not reassured that authorities
      have constructed paths that are supposed to guard against
      human inclinations,as these authorities turn out to have
      human inclinations of their own. In fact, when they pretend
      that they don't comes across to me as somewhat deceptive,
      and possibly self-deceptive. Their guards against personal
      aggrandizement don't seem to prevent aggrandizement of their
      doctrines, teachers, and structured version of reality. On
      the other hand, I hear the constructive side of what you're
      saying - it's like the idea of checks and balances in
      democracy. Still, the individuals who have really "shaken
      things up" and strongly affected spiritual vision turn out
      to be individuals *not* involved in the organizational
      structures of their time.
      Many are *rebels* in one way or another. This is not
      coincidence - far from it!

      Dan: Enjoying the discussion about rocks, animals and
      How can an object be "out" of its true nature when it is
      "our" perception that gives it its nature? If there is any
      doubt about the ability of a rock or antelope to be
      enlightened, this doubt can best be applied to awareness of
      our perception (of the "rock" and "antelope"). Peace all...

      You're right again, as usual.Nothing has any intrinsic
      meaning, it is only perception which makes it appear that
      way. Rock is emptiness. It becomes a rock when perception
      makes it appear so. It becomes an enlightened rock when my
      imagination makes it appear so. The rock could care less,
      and is still empty. As is my perception by the way.
      Fantasy just loves playing the game of unenlightenment, in
      order to achieve enlightenment. Isn't that a wonderful
      game? It is a very user friendly game; for it is a game
      that no one can loose. I love playing with rocks, with
      animals, with words, with you. I enjoy playing "I send
      message-You answer". There is only I. But it is so much fun
      with "me" and "you" around to talk about that, and play the
      Sitting with Francis Lucille in silence was the first time I
      had experienced this type of 'teaching', although there was
      talking that followed. I imagine that the silent approach
      is powerful and probably even more so if the group is very
      small, or even only two sitting together.

      ... just keep observing and the discoveries will come, you
      don't have to force them or even look for them -- they are
      reavealed-- and yes, mostly in very ordinary moments.

      I found this today from a Satsang w/ Vartman:

      "...the deepest recognition is that no thought is worthy of
      your attention. Your attention is gold. Your attention is
      the diamond. Wherever you put it, that's your reality. If
      you put it on the emotions, the story that's arising in the
      illusion of my life. That's your reality.

      You let it rest in where it's coming from . This is "sat
      chit ananda", awareness being aware of itself.

      And there's a subtle trap in this. Because your attention
      is so powerful that whatever you focus on can be produced,
      can be manifested. ANd at the deepest level if you are
      looking for bliss, as some confirmation that you're resting,
      then it's a very easy place to get trapped.

      "Cause the mind goes "Ah, ha. THere's bliss there. I'm
      resting properly now". "Oh, bliss has gone. I've gotta
      start resting more." "Oh, theres the experience of love here
      I must be doing this right.""Oh, I'm not feeling love. I've
      gotta rest more."

      This layer of bliss, of love, of extraordinary peace,
      happiness. That's the final veil. It's the most subtle
      state of mind. In sanskrit they even have a word for this
      it's called "ananda marga something or other."

      Who you are needs no confirmation of any state of bliss, of
      love, of peace, of anything.
      You are already what you are looking for. Regardless of the
      play of I've lost it.

      You don't need anything to validate who you are. This that
      you are has always been enlightenment.

      So now the mind has nowhere to go. THe mind is not the
      referee any more. The minds not saying "Yes. Good. You
      are getting it." It's like too lazy to even believe the
      conclusions of mind, of states, of feelings, of emotions.

      Only then. Really, only then, does this deepening appear,
      because until then you are still clinging to validation by
      mind. When it's like "No. Mind will never, ever get this."
      Then who cares what mind is thinking. Papaji used to say
      "Don't get involved with thinking. Don't get involved with
      thoughts, even if thinking is happening."


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