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Friday, July 26, 2002

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  • Jerry Katz
    #1147 Friday, July 26, 2002 Home: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm __________________________________________________________________________ NINA Are
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 27, 2002
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      #1147  Friday, July 26, 2002  Home: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm

      __________________________________________________________________________

      NINA

      Are enlightened people those who  have broken through to
      something  different?

      or

      Could it be they are the most conditioned of all?

      GENE POOLE

      Perhaps the 'enlightened' have broken through

      to see their own conditioning;

      That is different

      And a breakthrough

      At the same time...

      JAN BARENDRECHT

      It depends on the emotional and belief issues that have
      been left behind. This indicates the possibility of
      variance and seeming contradiction. Apart from that, the
      subsequent speed of dissolution of these issues left
      behind can be zero or within a lifetime, which further
      increases the observed difference.

      Consider thinking to have been "saved/helped" by an
      "enlightened master" heading a cult(like organization).
      Wouldn't such an event to a high degree set the scene
      for  opinions and behavior?  In mammalian behavior,
      imitation is a major feat. In the spiritual scene that
      is called "lineage".

      NINA

      I was thinking about a situation in which one becomes
      intent  on 'doing what is required' (for
      'enlightenment'), modifying behavior  to
      'survive/thrive' in that direction. Creating a whole new
      set of  rules governing response and self-defense (or
      lack thereof).

      JAN

      Thanks for mentioning this issue. Repeatedly there's the
      case of a householder wishing to leave for the woods in
      order to meditate. Giving in to such desire could be a
      lifelong conditioning, dissolving it means the
      realization that you aren't the mortal frame while
      engaged "in the line of duty". Then consider the case
      when living a solitary, easy going life without any
      moral obligations. For such a one, not willing to change
      that in favor of a more  challenging meditative life is
      the same lifelong conditioning. There is just this rule:
      for all creatures, death is certain.

      The defending issue is clear, it doesn't differ from the
      one in politics and soccer. That already indicates the
      issue could have been incorporated into teachings, and
      in some it has, the summary, a teacher has no need for
      defense.

      ...belief translates into action causing experiences
      which reinforce the belief. Once fully aware of that and
      "silence", you are "the island no flood can overwhelm".

      A good laugh could be this quote from the Buddha: "Happy
      is seclusion to him who is contented, to him who has
      heard the truth,  and to him who sees. Happy is goodwill
      in this world, and so is restraint towards  all beings.
      Happy in this world is non-attachment, the passing
      beyond of sense-desires.  The suppression of the 'I am'
      conceit is indeed the highest happiness."

      GARY MERRILL

      Yes is there a 'self' outside of conditioning?

      Being enlightened or not may be the conditioning itself,
      the process of becoming, the conditioning. 'We' are
      conditioned to abstract our identity, but this is still
      the movement of conditioning.

      The so called 'enlightened' and so called
      'unenlightened' are the same in that both imagine their
      selves to be outside and independent.

      The division of self into conditioned/unconditioned and
      un-enlightened/enlightened being the ignorance of
      identity.

      _________________________________________________________________________

      VIORICA

      Hello Everyone ...

      Two days ago the sweet She-God asked : "What is the size
      of a dinosaur ?  That of a building or that of a tower
      ?"

      "It could have been your size too ", says her  father.

      "Or your size , or her size , or ..." , she goes on and
      on ..," or his size ...",..

      Decided not to ever miss God's words ,  I've been
      meditating on dinosaurs' sizes,

      Love
      God devotee

      NINA

      God devotee, Viorica, that's marvel-ous. It smiled me.

      Here's another one for you, one of my personal favorites
      when it  comes to mind-blows. Look at birds. Pigeons.
      Grackles. Sparrows.  Bluejays. Robins. Finches. The
      oft-repeated scene that really cinches  it is the
      cluster of crows on the road digging apart the roadkill,
      hopping angrily away with mouths open when the cars
      come.

      Dinosaurs never left us.

      __________________________________________________________________________

      HEIDI

      Mark Twain:  http://essayists.8m.com/whatisman.html

      "I told you that there are none but temporary
      Truth-Seekers; that a permanent one is a human
      impossibility; that as soon as the Seeker finds what he
      is thoroughly convinced is the Truth, he seeks no
      further, but gives the rest of his days to hunting junk
      to patch it and caulk it and prop it with, and make it
      weather-proof and keep it from caving in on him. Hence
      the Presbyterian remains a Presbyterian, the Mohammedan
      a Mohammedan, the Spiritualist a Spiritualist, the
      Democrat a Democrat, the Republican a Republican, the
      Monarchist a Monarchist; and if a humble, earnest, and
      sincere Seeker after Truth should find it in the
      proposition that the moon is made of green cheese
      nothing could ever budge him from that position; for he
      is nothing but an automatic machine, and must obey the
      laws of his construction."

      And then...

      "Having found the Truth; perceiving that beyond question
      man has but one moving impulse - the contenting of his
      own spirit - and is merely a machine and entitled to no
      personal merit for anything he does, it is not humanly
      possible for me to seek further. The rest of my days
      will be spent in patching and painting and puttying and
      caulking my priceless possession and in looking the
      other way when an imploring argument or a damaging fact
      approaches."

      _________________________________________________________________________

      JP

      Hi folks
      My name is JP - 41 year old unenlightened man from
      Toronto.

      I have deeply appreciated NDS - have met wonderful
      people  through it. Have been a quiet voyeur - safe
      within my finely spun  Timothy Leary described cocoon.

      The brief discussion about "enlightenment" as a
      non-mystical,  naturally explainable event is
      intriguing.

      We may be familiar with some of the accounts of humans
      who  seemingly transcend the association with their own
      "suffering,  seeking self". Who then go on to view their
      experience and  altered state of consciousness as
      evidence of a self/other  defined state of
      enlightenment.

      They feel at peace. They are witnesses, at one with a
      neutral,  vast Consciosuness. They feel dispassionately
      detached from  their body-mind.

      In many of these personal accounts - there is often
      mention of a  profoundly disturbing - often prolonged -
      period of personal  crisis immediately preceding the
      described breakthrough in  awareness.

      Intense depression, anxiety, confusion, desperation,
      suicidal  ideation were experienced. There may have been
      years of  spiritual seeking, reading of many books,
      attempts at various  therapies, going from guru to guru
      or from belief system to belief  system. Much
      introspection took place. They may have engaged  in
      raging inner battles with incongruent belief systems and
      ideas. Stuck in an unsolvable koan of their own making.

      Insights were previously gained - what can be labeled
      awakenings. They witnessed the goings on of their minds
      - and  the herd-like consciousness of the tribe. They
      may even have  inquired into their own nature – and
      deconstructed themselves  to the point of concluding
      that they have no lasting, permanent  self. Insights
      were gained conceptually and experientially. And  yet -
      the suffering continued.

      Then - suddenly - there came an experience in which all
      of the  turmoil and chaos were seemingly "dropped" or
      transcended.

      The seeking ceased.

      Every one having such an experience describes it in
      her/his own  way, in the context of their own life.

      A state of "disassociation" took place - in which one
      feels s/he is  a disconnected, neutral "witness" to
      one's thoughts, personality  and activity. One may feel
      that the personality has ceased to  exist. One may feel
      a sense of implosion. Or a sense of infinite
      expansiveness.

      There may be a sense of profound rest, peace, love and
      happiness. There is immense relief - laughter or tears
      of joy -  and a sense of intimate connection with the
      vastness of all life.  There is disassociation from
      suffering - and intimate association  with what they
      feel is the vastness of Consciousness Itself. The  sense
      of the "present moment" may be intense. There may be
      joy in silence. Many other experiences are described.

      Questions:

      We know that during physical trauma - where bodily pain
      is  intense - the brain/body can bypass the perception
      of pain –  completely remove the pain from conscious
      awareness - and  bring on a state of euphoria or
      tranquility.

      A type of anesthesia from suffering can take place - a
      way in  which the brain/mind/body saves itself –
      protects itself - from  insurmountable pain.

      Can the same thing happen when a human being is faced
      with  an intensely anguished existential suffering?

      Can a type of anesthesia from mental suffering occur?
      Can the  brain/mind bypass its own neurological pathways
      – its own  entrenched pathways of
      memory/sensation/meaning that form a  continuous loop of
      intense consciously experienced pain?

      Can this experience of transcending or bypassing pain –
      feeling  liberated from existential anguish - then be
      believed by the one  experiencing it to be a state of
      enlightenment?

      When a human being is confronted with overwhelming
      existential suffering - extreme mental pain and anguish
      - is there  a natural faculty in the brain/mind that
      causes a break from the  unbearable experience of
      mental/neurological pain – a break  from a state of
      suffering - into a state of transcendant calm?

      We know that in the face of intense mental/emotional
      pain and  stress – there can also be a break into what
      is described as  madness and chaos.

      A human being can experience a "psychotic break" or
      paralyzing  depression – and be plunged into an altered,
      anguished state of  consciousness.

      Is there another break – not from overwhelming stress
      into  psychosis or acute depression – but from
      overwhelming stress  and suffering into a perceived
      sense of transcendence from  suffering?

      Is the escape and disassociation from suffering really a
      state of  enlightenment?

      Or is it the organism protecting itself through a
      neurally induced  anesthesia?

      Or does a person break with the suffering by accessing a
      "supernatural" non-localized quantum Universal
      Mind/Consciousness? A Consciousness that interpenetrates
      the biological neural firings of the suffering brain? A
      Consciousness that interfaces with the brain?

      Any thoughts and explorations are most welcome and
      appreciated.

      JP
      _________________________________________________________________________

      DANA HOFORD

      "All that stands between you
      and the immediate, perfect realization
      of the truth of being
      is everything whatsoever
      you are doing
      to attain this realization."
      - John Sherman

      ---
      Beloved, we are One
      http://www.satsang.nu
       

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