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Wednesday, July 3, 2002

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  • Jerry Katz
    Issue #1123 - Wednesday, July 3, 2002 Home: All posts in this issue from NDS AL LARUS No number crunching midnight
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 4, 2002
      Issue #1123  -  Wednesday, July 3, 2002  

      Home: <http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm>

      All posts in this issue from NDS

      AL LARUS

                     No number crunching
                     midnight brunching
                     no simple riddle
                     or magic fiddle
                     one or two or all together
                     looking for the single feather
                     when we ask
                     who gets the task
                     begin to think
                     here is the link
                     I and that out of the hat
                     Remember when
                     first count to ten
                     one white swan
                     on the lake at dawn
                     no to and fro
                     just letting go
                     bursting dying
                     no goodbying
                     no thing is staying off or on
                     not even zero, nothing, none.


      Dear Fellow Reader:

      The new issue of the TAT Forum is now online at

      This month's contents include: The Mind (part 2 of 2) by
      Richard Rose | Poems by Shawn Nevins | To Change or Not
      to Change by Shawn Nevins | Still Point of the Turning
      World (part 1) by Bob Cergol | Take Notice by Jim
      Clatfelter | Awakening into Awareness (part 4 of 4) by
      Metta Zetty | That Problem Mind by Bob Fergeson |
      Honesty by Gary Harmon | Humor | Reader Commentary.

      We hope you find inspiration and, as always, appreciate
      hearing from you.

      Sincerely, The Forum staff



      Soon, I will go to see the new movie 'Minority Report'.

      In this movie, the plot revolves around the question:

      "What is VALID consciousness?"

      It seems to me that behind a thin veil of spiritual
      jargon, much of the rhetoric of 'enlightenment' is
      nothing more than the ages-old argument over 'who has
      the valid consciousness'.

      That is to say, that I observe what is far worse than
      mere snobbishness and eliteism; it is the virtual
      relegation of persons who do not buy into a given
      program, to a (nonexistent) realm of perpetual
      ignorance and suffering.

      In this modern 'advaitist' version of this age-old
      racket of control and manipulation, persons are  given
      the choice between seeking 'enlightenment' as defined by
      someone (the master in question) or wandring forever on
      the astral hell-planes.

      I am sure that there do exist valid teachers, guides,
      and points of view; but those are being drowned  out by
      the delusional rantings and ravings of a few bad eggs,
      who seem utterly determined to exploit the current
      atmosphere, the current popularity of  Advaita.

      I advocate that a person may choose to utterly  forget
      all prior definitions, concepts, and advocacies which
      seem to emanate from religious or quasi- religious
      sources; it is possible to experience your own
      experience, without having to have it defined and
      qualified by anyone else at all.

      It is not necessary to seek experience by category, not
      is it necessary to categorize experience.

      It is not necessary that every thought be accompanied by
      an emotion; and emotion need not necessarily  stimulate

      It is unnessesary to 'know' the emotion which
      accompanies the thought of another; it is also
      unnessesary to assume that such is known.

      It is difficult to determine the motive of another, and
      it is foolish to allow the motives of another to become
      your own motive.

      Those who have been programmed/conditioned to expect
      duality, will seek enlightenment as the  obvious

      Those who do not expect duality, may not get it.

      Putting the Enigmatic Transmission in 'Drive'...

      ==Gene Poole==



      Hi Folks,

      I hope this post finds you all well. I used to think of
      nirvana as a  gray mist, an endless place of
      tranquility, peace and stillness  however, looking at
      the reality of our physical and mental states  where
      everything is in constant motion (cells continuously
      remaking  themselves/ourselves, thoughts, feelings
      constantly emerging then  fading into other/different
      thoughts/feelings)I think nirvana is less  a place of
      tranquility, peace and stillness and more THE PLACE/TIME
       where or at which one recognizes and accepts the
      constant flux and  motion of reality. Put more simply,
      nirvana is reached once we see  our situation for what
      it really is...the point at which one stops  struggling
      to halt the motion. In my mind, that point does not
      equate  to tranquility, peace or stillness...seeing and
      acceptance is just  seeing and acceptance; it does not
      make it hurt less or more nor does  it add or subtract

      I realize this is a bit garbled but then so am I. Any
      insight based  on experience or not will be greatly

      TIM HYDE

      It may be that Lisa has said all that needs to be said,
      here. But since this is a forum for words, I'll add some
      of my own.

      There is great character in nirvana. Although it is, as
      you say, the point of accepting reality, it is also the
      point of connecting with reality. It is a doorway
      through which one enters the promised land. Without
      getting too wispy and ethereal, the contact can be
      overwhelming, but once it becomes familiar (hence an
      emphasis on meditation as practice), there is a
      lemniscate relationship. You know, the figure-of-eight
      on its side symbol, which can represent infinity, but
      also demonstrates the inter-relationship of energy flows
      between two poles.

      Here, the poles might be consciousness and its
      manifestation, which of course includes the 'physical'
      world, or world-of-form as I'd prefer to call it, since
      that includes the psychic dimensions. Hence this is not
      either a passive state. Our very polarisation as
      tending-to-separate elements of one whole, means that
      the interaction with that pole (which might be better
      visualised as a centre) is a dynamic one of reciprocal

      This picture of the flowing energies ... perhaps one
      might call it Tao ?


      Really, I do not think that any person having the
      ability to speak, can truthfully  speak with knowledge
      on the topic you mentioned. I  believe Nirvana is
      another  world having with different dimensions than  we
      have here. Think that our present mind and bodies  must
      die within us,  before we will experience any thing new.
      Could be completely wrong in what I am saying, but hey,
      you asked for opinions,  and I just gave it.


      Hi Lisa,
      The definition of Nirvana: - extinguished.As in when
      no-one and  nothing is. What you are speaking of is
      standing as the observer. As the one who  observes you
      are not what is being obsrved so by being in this
      position you will eradicate your identity from the
      objective reality  and bring it back to its home ground,
      the subject. Duality consist of both the subject AND the
      object, they come into  play together. One is the
      manifest, the other the unmanifest. They  arise together
      other, two sides of the same coin. By staying in this
      position the moment will arise when both dissolve  into
      to that which is neither manifest or unmanifest and this
      that  then remains is what you ARE. It is not new,
      neither is it old. It is  what you are each night in
      deep sleep.YOU are No-thing which endures  for ever.  I
      did not in any way find what you wrote garbled in fact i
      thought it  well explained, My God !? I understood it ,
      where does that place me?

                                     Much Love Avasa


      Hi Lisa,

          Nothing Endures! - Quite right!


      The nature of One is two - this is the Tao.

      One is like a couple or a 'marriage' which appears as
      'two' and  yet the couple is: "Two - together as One".
      This is Tao.

      Like the duality of electricity or magnetism - a couple
      has the  polar qualities of feminine and masculine and
      yet 'The Whole' is  before/between/beyond its
      qualities/poles etc...

      There is never (was or will be) a time when the 'two'
      are not  together - there is the illusion of separation
      which can only exist  with 'you' as its accomplice (even
      the illusion of 'two' is 'not  two').

      The qualities of One are Definite and Infinite:
      Movement and Stillness - Stillness and Movement.


      Whatever thought on nirvana isn't nirvana. All creatures
      are born fully aware. Overpowering feelings and the
      thoughts  stirred up by them cause this to be forgotten.
      As the primordial bliss is subtlest of subtlest and
      doesn't oppose, that happens without noticing it. I
      still remember how the feeling of hunger did that but
      didn't leave a memory of "forgetting" - the term
      "recognition" when suddenly fully aware again comes
      closest, despite the notion that nothing really happened
      which was quite puzzling when a layman regarding
      "spiritual affairs".

      Hence, what the ignorants term "enlightenment" is but
      the dissolution of this mental flurry of feelings and
      related thought patterns, you never asked for but had to
      continue to accept in order to function...  Surprise
      then that at age 50 the flurry is a bit more than at
      say, age 24?

      For the sake of argument, this "primary layer" of
      conditioning could be termed unnatural as it is the
      residue of painful experiences, determining
      responsiveness a great deal (Expressed in phrases like
      "life is determined by fate/the stars/God/Kali/the
      Kundalini" etc. etc..)

      The secondary layer is another matter, it concerns the
      conditioning termed "animal man" and when dissolved,
      peace rules, irrespective activity/emotions. The
      "Advaita" idea of peeling the onion could  easily be
      proved to be incorrect as functioning actually improves
      and "hidden" talents spontaneously surface. As to no
      surprise the  dissolution of the second layer is termed
      "nirvana/moksha/union  of lover & beloved/liberation"
      and it won't be a surprise it is  "hard work" as "animal
      man" is quite pernicious and doesn't leave
      "voluntarily" (i remember a Ramana quote, stating he
      didn't talk on 'liberation' often). For those with eyes
      to see, Lalla recorded her impressions on "liberation"
      in a poem - one that was posted some time ago.

      All good things coming in three, for the sake of
      argument, there is a  third layer which could be called
      "human perspective" and is not "up" for discussion. But
      the Buddha left a few marks on it...

      BTW, the above wasn't quoted or "made up": just a
      summary of past events "while the show continues".


      The more mind ('I think') and movement ('Nirvana is
      reached') are removed, the better. And this is tricky
      because such 'removing' would seem to require mind and

      A shift is required. There are different ways of
      positioning oneself -- basically known as sadhana, a
      spiritual life, a teaching, relationship with a Guru --
      so that the shift happens.


      Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is within. He had
      a lot of  nirvana to say that!



      mmm, i really like this one. me too, i always wanted to
      be perfect Chinese girl...


      Yina Liang, teenage student - I'm Nobody by Emily



      Kip Mazuy. A new guru on the block.




      Believe me, you spend 15 minutes in a 200 degree sauna
      and everyone  in there is sharing one experience:
      melting, breathing, watching  the breath and heartbeat,
      and everything else is dropping away. At  such a point
      must be where the sauna meets the Sweat Lodge.

      I'm not comparing the two experiences, the Sweat Lodge
      being a  deeply traditional spiritual experience in
      which commonality is  realized not just on a physical
      but on a spiritual level. Everyone  is brought to their
      commonality, all the members of different  tribes, and
      that's a good direction to move, toward commonality not


      Sweat Lodge may be a deeply traditional spiritual
      experience, but the  women's sauna at the Y half an hour
      before closing on a Sunday has  had a particular appeal
      to me.

      I thought it a freezone, a space situated behind enough
      thresholds to  remove it from the demanding eye of
      social structure. Skins sloughed  with each threshold:
      down the stairs, through the vestibule, through  the
      dressing room door (this, a significant one, into the
      women-only  realm), to the locker (where the artifacts
      are shed), through the  toilet rooms (more shedding),
      through the showers (more shedding),  and into the
      sauna. Deeply buried, it is amazing what starkly naked
      strangers will share... and how alike the sharings are.

      One time, though, I found the reverence of my Sunday
      Sauna disrupted  in an oddly cutting way.

      That week, after warming right up to the 10 minute
      warning mark, my  sauna companions went their way to the
      locker room while I stepped  into the shower to cool
      off. Walking out of the shower, I was  surprised by the
      janitor. Actually, I don't know who was more  surprised,
      or if he wasn't surprised at all. Beyond all reasoning,
      I  said "Hey, how you?" in my most casual local speak.
      He  stammered, "Uh!" I left the room.

      I mentioned this incident to other women in the locker
      room, who were  greatly disturbed and asked a
      surprisingly unconcerned staffer to  look into it.
      Thinking this was the end of the story, I was walking
      out of the Y, past the front desk, when I heard someone
      yell "That's  her! She's the one!" I turned to see the
      janitor pointing at me, the  staffers behind the desk
      laughing and everyone in the lobby staring.

      Suddenly, I'm the villain. Just for being naked in a
      place where it  ought to be totally ok. That is what
      happens when the worlds outside  the thresholds collide
      with the worlds within. Seems that my  construction of
      the sanctity of that space was shown to be just that:  a
      construction, very easily shattered.

      I'm still looking for the commonality in that scene. Was
      it the  moment of mutual surprise? Was it the moment of
      mutual embarrassment?  Which is worse? Losing your job
      or losing your dignity?

      Luckily, neither of us lost either of those things.



      Awareness cleaned my mind
      to a polished mirroring.
      The presence came near , and I knew
      that That was everything ,
      and I nothing.
      - Lalla
         Naked Song

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