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Sunday, May 12, 2002

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  • Gloria Lee
    . The Highlights Issue #1070 Sunday, May 12, 2002 Edited by Gloria Lee Highlights Home Page: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm ... Joseph Riley on Hafiz Zero
    Message 1 of 1 , May 13, 2002
      The Highlights
      Issue #1070

      Sunday, May 12, 2002

      Edited by Gloria Lee
      Highlights Home Page: http://nonduality.com/hlhome.htm

      Joseph Riley on Hafiz
      Is where the Real Fun starts.
      There's too much counting
      Everywhere else!
      ("I Heard God Laughing -- Renderings of Hafiz"  by Daniel Ladinsky)

      In honor of Sunday being "Mother's Day" a non-coercive approach to parenting is presented, a movement called Taking Children Seriously. At most, such a totally radical equality might be called nondual parenting. At the least, looking closely at the "control meme" is worthwhile even for non parents.
      from the FAQ
      What is TCS?

      TCS is a philosophy of non-coercive education and child-rearing. Discussions centre on a paper journal, Taking Children Seriously, an internet List (the TCS List) and a web site (this site), all of which are run by me, Sarah Lawrence, with a lot of help from friends and colleagues.

      What are the core ideas of TCS?

      We believe that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without coercion (i.e. without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will), and that children are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.

      We are critical rationalists, fallibilists and libertarians.

      Who is the “keeper” of the “TCS philosophy”? That is, if it is to evolve, who decides whether an evolved version is still TCS or not?

      I own the TCS list and the journal. But there can be no official definition of what it means to take children seriously, just as there can be no official definition of what it means to be a Conservative, a Liberal or a Socialist. No one “owns” such labels. Various thinkers and writers, who want to apply such labels to themselves, simply have to enter the fray in the field of ideas and try to persuade others that their version is true.

      So to answer the question directly, “who is to decide whether an evolved version is still TCS or not?”, the answer is no one. Or anyone who wants to.


      sample topics from various journal articles: http://www.tcs.ac/Journal/index.html

      In Praise of Ignorance, by David Deutsch “Innocence, properly conceived, is a positive attribute. It is the ignorance that comes from a voluntary decision not to engage (or not to engage yet) with a particular area of complex knowledge. Innocence in that sense is essential for all genuine learning. Compulsory teaching is the destruction of innocence, forcing the victims to waste the opportunity, which comes only once in each lifetime, to encounter that knowledge for the first time. It is no wonder, then, that pumping information prematurely into people's minds simply triggers emergency procedures that do everything in their power to shield the recipient from engaging with that information, and that the usual result is the permanent destruction of the recipient's ability to engage with information of that type. How many people have a feeling that there is something rich and wonderful in science, or in mathematics, or in Shakespeare, but that it is somehow inaccessible to them? Is that not a tragedy? If they could have acted on that same impulse innocently, at the moment when they were ready, what then could possibly have spoiled those rich and wonderful areas of knowledge for them?” Reader's comment: “This is quite simply one of the most important articles ever published.” (TCS 31)


      CIA Brainwashing Memorandum Versus Parenting Books: In this fascinating article, Maria Droujkova points out the parallels between a recently-declassified CIA memo on how to brainwash people on the one hand... and the advice given to parents in parenting books on the other. Chilling! (TCS 30)


      Coercion is Not Love: An article about the importance of facing the harm we have done, and the importance of separating the idea of good intentions from the question of whether something is harmful. “I am not saying that parents do not truly love their children – I think that most do... I am just saying that hurting our children in any way, shape, or form – no matter how obvious or how subtle – can never be an expression of parental love. ... The fact that coercion and love become so linked in so many ways is itself part of the harm caused by coercion. It is the irrational legacy left to the child, who upon becoming a parent passes that legacy on to his or her own child.” (TCS 22)


      What Will People Think?: Are you passing the paralysing WWPT hangup on to your children? (TCS 26)


      Introduction to the TCS List

      The Taking Children Seriously List is a forum for the discussion of TCS child-rearing/education theory and practice, and for the support of parents trying to make their interactions with their children non-coercive.


      "I've recently noticed how the idea of non-coercion has percolated thru many aspects of my life .... eg, my relationships with other adult friends are “melting” as I change the way I react to those who were coerced as children, continue to expect be coerced, and are thus stiffened against it."

      “Geesh, I feel like I am visiting another planet being on this list.”

      words, words, words on NDS


      Kir Li Molari 

      There are different ways to think about nonduality.

      Harlen Whitling

      There is actually no way to think about nonduality.


      What can you say about nonduality that hasn't already been said?

      Absolutely nothing has been or can be said about nonduality.


      He says this about nonduality and she says that about nonduality.

      There are no "he" and "she."


      There's a lot of ambivalence about nonduality.

      The concept of nonduality is not.


      Nonduality is experienced differently.

      Nonduality is beyond experience.


      Jan Barendrecht on NDS
      re: words, words, words
      Has the following about nonduality been said before?
      When society finally will reflect the (proven) knowledge
      that there isn't a 'me', what now is labeled 'nondual issues'
      then will be similar to what now is the phlogiston theory when
      talking of oxidation. What remains unchanged will be the
      "no nonsense" approach regarding the illusion of a 'me' which
      so easily installs in the mind...

      It has been said before:
      º no, because time doesn't exist
      º yes, because the amount of events is infinite so it must be a repetition
      º neither yes nor no because all events, irrespective the labels attached,
       are like a fata morgana, fleeting appearances, essentially void of any 'substance'.


      Al Larus on NDS
      Slowly slowly O mind, everything in own pace happens
      Gardner may water a hundred buckets, fruit arrives only in its season


      To NDS Members,
      Methinks what is meant; at any point of what we call "TIME", at any place, anywhere and anytime,
      what is happening NOW, has always been happening, and will be happening forever and ever, and
      will happen again and again.
      There is not anything at anywhere, and at anytime, that can stop any natural event from happening.
      Scrap all of your plans to build a time machine, it is futile.

      Jan Barendrecht on NDS
      It's always useful to be reminded of definitions. Regarding time, that's based on the
      rotations regarding the solar system: a matter of observation, then defining.
      In that respect, terms like "always" and "now" implicitly are paying homage to the notion of time
      passing by which is a conclusion, not an observation. 
      Without observation, a statement like "nothing is happening" would be impossible
      and when observing takes place, that is what is happening. Philosophies based on
      experiences like nirvikalpa samadhi are like trying to describe empty space from the
      observation of the walls, inside an empty container.
      In the same sense that a boiled egg can't return to its previous raw state, returning
      in time is a fiction, not just because of the laugh to be 'present' before the big bang
      went off. Which doesn't mean, that the potential to observe cannot move in any dimension:
      there are quite a few indications it can as it isn't "fixed" to the location called "body".

      Al Larus on NDS
      We have all arrived safely at the other shore,
      now we are just watching the replay.

      Debra Orf on Harsha Satsangh
      somewhere near here...

      not far from there
      overyonder for three fortnights.

      (You know, i don't have time for this...)

      green-blazed forest fires
      in a riot of spring rain
      and sunshine.

      (ok, give me a break, this is sappy!)
      (my turn---)
      (130 miles an hour, turning the
      (curves of the speedway
      (zoom zoom zoom
      (adrenaline pounding

      Cars! You're talking about
      *car racing!*

      (yeah, beats your sap about the misty)
      (green trees)

      together now....

      the still mirrorglass
      of the water

      is shattered by the
      mechanical thunder
      in a cloud of burning rubber

      (better...but you didn't even mention PIT STOPS)


      Stan Sambey on NDS

      Wanna chat, or do you wanna act?

      Cannot You Find Me?

      I am more than any description or combination thereof.

      Take my money

      I am

      Take my Home

      I am

      Take my Family

      I am

      Take my Race

      I am

      Take my Colour

      I am

      Take my Speech

      I am

      Take my Clothes

      I am

      Take my Hearing

      I am

      Take my Taste

      I am

      Take my Sight

      I am

      Take my Touch

      I am

      Take my Smell

      I am

      When Happy

      I am

      When Sad

      I am

      When Angry

      I am

      When Thinking

      I am

      When Sleeping

      I am

      I (om)

      AM (ma)

      YOU (ni)

      WE (pad)

      ARE (me)

      ALL (hum)



      Sundeep on Nisargadatta list
      J. Krishnamurti:
      "There is no freedom in choice. You choose according to the
      background you have been brought up in, according to to your social,
      economic, religious conditioning. Choice invariably strengthens this
      conditioning; there is no escape from this conditioning, it only
      breeds more suffering. [...] Choice is always breeding misery. Watch
      it and you will see it, lurking, demanding, insisting and begging,
      and before you know where you are you are caught in its net of
      inescapable duties, responsibilities and despairs. Watch it and you
      will be aware of the fact. Be aware of the fact; you cannot change
      the fact; you may cover it up, run away from it, but you cannot
      change it. It is there. If you will let it alone, not interfering
      with it with your opinions and hopes, fears and despairs, with your
      calculated and cunning judgements, it will flower and show all its
      intricacies, its subtle ways and there are many, its seeming
      importance and ethics, its hidden motives and fancies. If you will
      leave the fact alone, it will show you all these and more. But you
      must be choicelessly aware of it, walking softly. Then you will see
      that choice, having flowered, dies and there is freedom, not that you
      are free but there is freedom. You are the maker of choice; you have
      ceased to make choice. There is nothing to choose. Out of this
      choiceless state there flowers aloneness. Its death is never ending.
      It is always flowering and it is always new. Dying to the known is to
      be alone. All choice is in the field of the known; action in this
      field always breeds sorrow. There is the ending of sorrow in

      "Freedom can only come about naturally, not through wishing, wanting,
      longing. Nor will you find it by creating an image of what you think
      it is. To come upon it the mind has to learn to look at life, which
      is a vast movement, without the bondage of time, for freedom lies
      beyond the field of consciousness."

      "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man's
      pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure
      observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward."

      "To seek is to deny the truth that is right in front of you.Your eyes
      must see that which is the nearest; and the seeing of that is a
      movement without end....Not to seek is to find; and the finding is
      not in the future - it is there, where you do not look.The looking is
      ever present, from which all life and action takes place. Meditation
      is the blessing of this action...Seeking is a personal drive from the
      centre - to attain, to belong, to hold. In inquiry there is freedom
      from the very beginning; looking is the freedom from the weight of

      "When you live with facts as they are, not with data produced by the
      computer, but observing them, watching your own activity, your own
      egotistic pursuits, then out of that grows marvellous freedom with
      all its great beauty and strength"

      "Every decision to control only breeds resistance, even the
      determination to be aware. Meditation is the understanding of the
      division brought about by decision. Freedom is not the act of
      decision but the act of perception. The seeing is the doing"


      Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and
      acquire the jnana, (Self-Knowledge) which will enable him not to
      identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions
      rendered inevitable by "prarabdha," (karma that must be worked out in
      the present life) and a man is free either to identify himself with
      the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be
      detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities.

      Elizabeth Wells on Nisargadatta list
      The void.

      I walked down the road about 100 feet to the mailbox on the
      main highway yesterday.
      There was no one or nothing around.
      Perfectly quiet.

      The split second I stepped out the door and started
      going down the road,

      at least 20 dogs of every shape and color emerged
      from nowhere started running circles around me,
      playing with eachother, barking and yipping,
      rubbing up against me....

      blue jays appeared out of nowhere buzzing us ...

      little kids suddenly filled the street, yelling "hi, tie my shoe",
      sticking their feet out......

      just before I stepped back into the house door from
      my trip to the mailbox, I looking down the road,
      and it was perfectly quiet, no one or nothing around.....
      exactly how it was before I started my treck to and from the mail


      FW from somebody:
      Did you tie their shoes?

      Ans: Yep.
      Never can tie too many little shoes.
      Or pull too many little trucks out of mud puddles or ditches.
      Dust them off and set them on their way.


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