Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Friday, March 15, 2002

Expand Messages
  • Jerry Katz
    The Nondual Highlights Outstanding posts sent to the Nonduality Salon email list and other online forums Friday, March 15, 2002 The 1007th Edition Search all
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 17, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      The Nondual Highlights

      Outstanding posts sent to the Nonduality Salon email list
      and other online forums


      Friday, March 15, 2002

      The 1007th Edition

      Search all Editions of the Nondual Highlights:
      http://nonduality.com/searchhl.htm


       
      Editors: Jerry Katz, Gloria Lee, Christiana Duranczyk, Michael Read, John Metzger

      Today's Highlights Edited by

      Jerry


      Editor's note: The last issue of the Highlights was number 1003. This one is 1007. The missing three issues were actually duplicates that were sent in the last few days and which should have received unique numbers. Each edition of the highlights receives a new number by Yahoogroups whether or not it is a duplicate and our numbers have to be the same as assigned by Yahoogroups. These Highlights are uploaded to the NDS website and are indexed by the search engine. A researcher would expect the numbers we assign to the Highlights to coordinate with those assigned by Yahoogroups. --Jerry


      CHINMAYI

      ON JNANA AND BHAKTI

      "Among all means of liberation, bhakti is supreme. To seek
      earnestly to know one's real nature -- this is said to be bhakti.
      In other words, devotion can be defined as the search for the
      reality of one's own Atman ["Self']."

      -- Vivekachudamani verses 31-32 (Sri Adi Shankaracharya;
      Tapasyananda Sw trans)

      Shankara lived around the 7th or 8th centuries BCE and is
      considered to be the "father" of Advaita Vedanta philosophy.
      Advaita Vedanta itself is Jnana Yoga (yoga through gnosis),
      sometimes seen at the other end of the spectrum from bhakti yoga
      (yoga through devotionalism). Commentators on Shankara note that
      devotional themes emerge in his later works (such as the famous
      hymn Bhaja Govindam.) Should the two be considered distinct or do
      they support each other? What is "mature bhakti and mature jnana?
      The argument has been that jnana without bhakti can deteriorate
      into dry sophistry and bhakti without jnana can deteriorate into
      sentimentalism and fanaticism.

      What is devotion for the jnani (or advaitist)? Certainly, the
      definition and practice differs from the nondualist (dvaitist),
      which usually puts great emphasis on a sometimes troubadouresque
      kind of bhakti view and approach. Indeed, some dvaitist groups
      vilify the jnani or absolutist view.

      But life goes on nevertheless....

      VIORICA

      "To know God is to love God. Therefore the path of bhakti and of
      jnana are same. "

      Sri Ramana Maharshi

      MIKE CARRIS

      For Chinmayi more Lankavatara Sutra

      Beginning of Chapter 3.

      Right Knowledge or Knowledge of Relations

      Then Mahamati said: Pray tell us, Blessed One, about the being
      and the non-being of all things?

      The Blessed One replied: People of this world are dependent in
      their thinking on one of two things: On the notion of being,
      whereby they take pleasure in realism, or in the notion of
      non-being whereby they take pleasure in nihilism; in either case
      they imagine emancipation where there is no emancipation. Those
      who are dependent upon the notion of being, regard the world as
      rising from a causation that is really existent, and that this
      acatually existing and becoming world does not take its rise from
      a causation that is non-existent. This is the realistic view as
      held by some people. Then there are other people who are
      dependent on the notion of the non-being of all things. These
      people admit the existence of greed, anger and folly, and at the
      same time they deny the existence of things that produce greed,
      anger and folly. This is not rational, for greed, anger and folly
      are no more to be taken hold of as real than are things; they
      neither have substance nor individual marks. Where is a state of
      bondage, there is binding and means for binding; but where there
      is emancipation, as in the case fo Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, masters
      and disciples, who have ceased to believe in both being and
      non-being, there is neither bondage, binding nor means for
      binding.

      It is better to believe in an ego-substance than to entertain the
      notion of emptiness derived from the view of being and non-being,
      for those who so believe fail to understand the fundamental fact
      that the external world is nothing but a manifestation of mind.
      Because they see things as transient as rising from cause and
      passing away from cause, now dividing, now combining into the
      elements which make up the aggregates of personality and its
      external world and now passing away, they are doomed to suffer
      every moment from the changes that follow one after another, and
      finally are doomed to ruin.

      All Lankavatara Sutra quotes from
      'A Buddhist Bible', p293,294
      Edited by Dwight Goddard.

      __________________________________________________________________

      DAVE OSHANA responding to Jerry

      Dave Oshana & Jerry Katz: like Two Peas in a NonDual Pod - We go way
      back.

      Hi Jerry,
       
      > dave oshana is a very cool guy

      Why thank you! It's nice to be known as 'cool' not that it makes
      any difference to 'The Work' - just makes communication easier

      >and he's doing amazing good things.

      Well, you know they are just happening (Did I say it right,
      Jerry? - Coach me! ;) )

      > I've always supported his work. In the early days we were in
      > touch all >the time.

      Gee! Jerry's such a big loveable bear of a guy. His arms are wide
      enough to hold the hold the Five Great Lakes of North America and
      the entire British Isles: England Scotland and Wales, and Eire!

      > they're starting to call me Noshana. Because nothing happens to
      > people >when they're around me. They go away and they say,
      > "Nothing happened."

      You sure you want such an exotic name? Did McDonald's get famous
      by being exotic? You started well by sensibly calling yourself
      "The NondualitySalon" not "The Advaita Ashram" and now you have
      more members than any other Nondual Yahoo!Group list. You even
      have 11 more members than me. May you could spare me a few
      devotees after they have grown tired of "parsing each other's
      statements for signs of non-dual thinking", as one of my recently
      awakened students enlighteningly commented.

      How about "Jerry Noshow" - you don't turn up and when you do
      no-one can find 'You' because the Real You is invisible. The Show
      could be considered truly bland and tasteless, as well as:
      colourless, odourless, & intangible - and afterwards we can all
      go and eat Mystic Pizza - which'll have absolutely Everything on
      top - and a stuffed crust ...um yummy..I gotta go fill my tummy

      Hey Jerry, do I qualify for inclusion in this weeks NDS
      highlights? I'm taking serious time-off here to write this reply.
      I'm gotta be writing about Ken Wilber's reckless promotion of the
      "Rude Boy" as bona fide spiritual teacher in Andrew Cohen's
      forthcoming book, but first I am going to wake some people
      up...back in a minute..

      We love you in the UK - "Go Jerry Go Jerry Go!"

      dave oshana Enlightenment Now www.oshana.org/

      p.s. If you don't use "Noshana/NoShow" can I have the first
      option on it?

      JERRY KATZ

      OSHANA:
      > Well, you know they are just happening (Did I say it right,
      > Jerry? - Coach me! ;) )

      JERRY:
      They're always just happening. If that view is lost, freshness as
      a teacher can be lost. I saw Douglas Harding give a talk with his
      wife that they've probably given thousands of times. Yet
      freshness was maintained. It could only be so because they feel
      their work is just happening. They spoke for two hours. I got
      exhausted watching them give their animated presentation. He's
      93.

      Teachers who get popular and go out a lot have to keep fresh.
      It's no different than being any other kind of performer. The
      energy that's bringing about transformation may never lose its
      power, the connection with source is never lost, but the human
      teacher can get tired, sick, distracted, whatever. You've got
      people, an organization, guys with pocked faces breaking legs.
      They all depend on it all being fresh.

      ____________________________________________________________________

      GREG GOODE

      I have a friend in New York who for the last 15 years has been in
      several guru cults and followed a few satsang teachers around.
      Until he didn't. Since breaking away from all of that, he thought
      very deeply about it for a few years. He came to somewhat the
      same conclusion you did - Take a look at the students. In his
      estimate, most of the ugly dynamics are due to low self esteem
      and unresolved parental issues on the part of the students. He
      actually wrote about this and posted it on NDS. There were
      several angry responses to his message....

      _________________________________________________________________

      BRIAN EARLE AND CAROL S.
      from Guru Ratings List

      "Perhaps no one has ever had a teacher; and perhaps we need to
      find someone to call teacher in order to realize that."

      Carol S.: Who's the teacher?The one you project that role onto.

      BRIAN: The cleaner the mirror, the more faithful the feedback.

      We also use our friends and lovers the same way. These are people
      we choose, and who choose us based on the ability to reflect back
      what cannot otherwise be seen by us. Shadow stuff comes up in
      relationship. When we take back ownership of all that we are, we
      "realize" ourselves completely. The nice thing about guru yoga
      (as opposed to other kinds of relational yoga, including intimacy
      and therapy) is that it is conscious of itself AS yoga.

      CAROL S.: My perception of her changes each time I'm with her; I
      feel enlightened or disappointed or angry or scared or busted
      or supported or deeply in love; but she never moves...it's me.

      BRIAN: Only one who recognizes that he/she is not separate can
      remain so unmoved. Unmoved in this case means having one's roots
      fully penetrated into the absolute, while the wind blows and
      bends the boughs.

      CAROL: Who is the teacher? Nothing more or less than the mirror
      of myself and my experience and my thinking.

      BRIAN: Yes, the mind in other words (Tibetan Buddhism likens the
      mind to a mirror).

      Those who rest in this breath are like flat water that reflects
      clouds.

      CAROL: Perhaps no one has ever had a teacher; and perhaps we
      need to find someone to call teacher in order to realize that.

      BRIAN: Good point. Before awakening we think we need the
      validation, but it turns out we really don't.

      This really turns the whole "guru rating" thing on its ear.
      Anyone want to start at seeker rating list? Probably not. Hits to
      close to home.

      ______________________________________________________________

      HEIDI

      "Teachers of Enlightenment, whether they have a pleasing
      personality, or a rough one, are DIRT."

      > what makes a guru cult? well it certainly isn't the guru.
      > it's those idiots that surround gurus.
      > ................matthew

      Friggin hellarious analysis, matthew. Many tanks.

      But you know, seen from another view, it's not the leader nor the
      follower that should be singled out, any more than it's the dirt,
      or in-grown hair, clogging some random skin pore, that causes
      that unsightly zit or, if untreated, boil to explode on the skin
      and make your life miserable for a day or a week (if you let it).

      Teachers of Enlightenment, whether they have a pleasing
      personality, or a rough one, are DIRT - common HAIRY DIRT! - and
      they clog the skin-pores of Life, requiring immediate remedial
      action - white blood cells swarm to the spot, like moths to the
      enlightened, to deal with the situation in the only way they can
      - hence, it gets noticed.

      If Mr. or Ms. Dirty Hairy had not clogged the skin, it would have
      been absorbed or expelled - a non-event - requiring no further
      action. But, Dirty Hairy is invasive to the body of Life, and not
      INTENDED to produce good effects (though for itself, it
      "believes" otherwise), but only bad effects, and bad effects are
      usually what you get.

      But, no worries, mate, Life is big enough to deal with the
      situation with a smile, and nary a notice.

      So should you - keep your skin clean and healthy and you'll never
      need to concern yourself with the effects of those Dirty Hairy
      bums again.

      ___________________________________________________________________

      JAMES TRAVERSE

      The most obvious and least seen cult on the planet is society.

      HEIDI

      James - I'm just going to be 'RUDE' here, and say:

      On the contrary, The most obvious and least recognized cult on
      the planet is individual humans - not just him, or her, or them -
      but each one. Of course, society is comprised of humans, and
      groups for enlightenment exist in society, and are simply part of
      man's hormonal drive to community, to physical grouping.

      Societies behave the way men behave and for the same reasons.

      Each person, in the mind, operationally, is a cult - and one
      which is much more Rude and Not-rude (even silly), than any Guru,
      Teacher, etc., whose hand you could shake (and then run home and
      criticize him/her for 'their way they are'.)

      I couldn't PROVE this to you, but I could illustrate it to you -
      and if you're reasonably sane you could See it.

      Consider the internal application to one human nervous system at
      the brain level: a man becomes his own cult leader; he is *very*
      defensive to himself and others, constantly restating the
      singularity and certainty of his goals and aspirations; always
      and everywhere attempting to present the appearance of a unified,
      stable intellectual body - his community of ideas (his
      'certainty' about 'certain things'). In other, not so silly,
      almost RUDE words: telling everybody just what kind of guru, er,
      guy he is (and what HE thinks about 'that burning question of
      yours').

      The only way to break the bonds of genetic evolution, is to make
      a PRIVATE effort for the release from the pretense toward
      community that all men are forced to make. Hey, to go it alone
      with real earned certainty.

      JAN BARENDRECHT

      James, is that a joke?

      Sometimes a dictionary comes in handy:

      society -------

      1. a. The totality of social relationships among human beings. b.
         A group of human beings broadly distinguished from other
         groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic
         relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture. c.
         The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating
         group.

      2. An organization or association of persons engaged in a common
         profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a
         society of bird watchers.

      3. a. The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class. b. The
         socially dominant members of a community. -------

      Regarding 1a, there is no way out: the mind-body is dependent on
      others regarding the continuation of its existence. Wouldn't it
      makes sense to make the 'best' of it? Regarding 1b, don't you
      think it applies to you too? The same goes for 2 and it is a
      subset of 1a. Regarding 3, a little investigation will show that
      what now appears as 'justice', once was used to protect the
      privileged from those who already were without rights but were in
      the majority... Considering the "success" of justice systems, not
      a surprise is it?

      For cult, the dictionary gives: -------

      1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be
         extremist or false, with its followers often living in an
         unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian,
         charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or
         sect.

      2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

      3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious
         ceremony and ritual.

      4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its
         originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a
         particular disease.

      5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration
         for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such
         devotion.

      6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually
         artistic or intellectual interest. -------

      Wouldn't you agree that worship, devotion, interest, ritual
      nearly have vanished from society? And that these elements are
      obliged ingredients for the "glue" of a stable, tolerant and
      righteous society? Have you ever visited 3rd world countries
      outside the tourist circuit and talked to ppl for whom Westerners
      are but arrogant, wealthy and unhealthy?

      JAMES TRAVERSE

      No Joke.

      Society is composed of mass hypnotized people who worship and
      fear power.

      The vast majority of people believe that they are their body,
      mind and senses - try telling them that they are not and see the
      response!

      Most feel that they are separate - that there is dualism -
      especially those in the privleged world and they certainly
      influence those in the 3rd world.

      This is insecurity which comes from the ignorance of not knowing
      'Who am I?' - and then grasping at that which provides
      comfort/hope - something to believe in rather than face the
      unknown.

      The members of all those other cults had to come from
      somewhere...

      ~~~

      Ramana said it well 'I AM THAT I AM sums up the whole truth, the
      method is summarized in BE STILL' - try repeating this to the
      average person in society...will it have a profound meaning so
      that it transforms that persons life? - not likely, the
      programming is deep.

      Society is concencus reality - a cult.

      ________________________________________________________________________

      MICHAEL READ

      Judi has premiered the ultimate in spiritual adornments. You can
      see it at:

      http://www.livingston.net/allison/sacred01.htm

      _______________________________________________________________________

      SARLO, SKYE AND BRUCE

      SARLO:
      An Englishman decided that he wanted to become Irish. After much
      research he discovered that the only way to become truly Irish
      was to have half his brain removed. He managed to find a surgeon
      who would operate, but during the operation the doctor made a
      dreadful mistake and removed his entire brain. When the man woke
      up, the doctor said, "I'm very sorry, I've made a mistake.
      Instead of taking half your brain, I removed it all!" To which
      the patient replied, "No worries, mate!"

      SKYE: Hehe but the problem is it doesn't work on us Sarlo. Don't
      mean to sound biased ;-) - but the fact is, a quick trip to
      PalTalk will confirm that the average Aussie is well informed,
      refreshingly unpretentious, the least conditioned, indoctrinated
      or religious, and therefore make the fairest (albeit it at times
      controversial) no BS administrators with the busiest yet peaceful
      rooms. No wucking furries mate :-)))))))))

      BRUCE: Oh, c'mon Skye -- everyone Stateside knows that Aussies
      are beer-swilling, croc-wrestling louts descended from convicts
      too incorrigable for English prisons whose treatment of the
      indigenous peoples of their oversized island makes the deeds of
      Custer and Sheridan look like a U.N. peacekeeping foray! :-)

      If Australia had enough population and even a modicum of economic
      or military prowess, it'd surely be the undisputed hegemon of the
      west Pacific. As it is, the mighty Ozmen had to be rescued from
      the Japanese by none other than the Americans. However, when left
      largely to its own devices after the war, the overall competence
      level of the Aussies and their Kiwi neighbors ensured that the
      ultimate west Pacific hegemon turned out to be Japan anyway,
      despite utter defeat and nuclear devestation at the hands of the
      Yanks.

      Japan exports its world- class technology and exquisitely refined
      culture all over the world, Australia provides Foster's, Paul
      Hogan, Steve Irwin, Geoffery Rush, Cate (sigh...) Blanchette, and
      Mel Gibson -- oops, Australia's biggest export industry turns out
      be a Yank transplanted from New York! :-)

      Well, at least the randy presence of so many GIs on leave in
      Melbourne and Sidney while the war was on improved the
      otherwise-pitiful Australian gene pool. :-)
       

    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.