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668Sunday, April 1

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Apr 2, 2001
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      Hi Jerry, you posed this question...

      If we ever start The Course in Nonduality, this might be turned
      into a good question on the finals:

      wouldn't it be nice to talk about nonduality from the place
      prior to anything ever having been written about it by anyone?
      when people first started talking about nonduality, many must
      have done it at the same time without knowing about the others.
      we know what scriptures have survived, but i wonder what else
      was being said that has been lost. what would you have talked
      about? unable to refer to the nonduality of friends and
      literature, what would you say to describe the nondual state and
      what might prompt it? Pretend you're the first one!


      There is at least one other way to approach this viewpoint.

      It can be imagined that 'in the beginning', the 'nondual
      viewpoint' was the one held in common; and that it was so, until
      some kind of 'corruption' occurred.

      So perhaps, we can ask, 'who were the first dualists'.

      For reasons lost in the mists of time, 'duality' became the
      dominant configuration, overtaking and eventually displacing the
      natural nondual.

      To understand and to feel the naturalness of the natural native
      (the result, for dualists, of doing nothing meditation), is a
      wonderful and refreshing experience. To leave behind the
      obligatory complexity of duality, is to open the vast space of
      infinite possibility, in which all possibility exists as living
      potential, a living intelligence, which blooms as
      'thousand-petal lotus' if given the space...

      I seems that it is inevitable that there are among us, those
      whose world-dream conditioning failed to take root, allowing the
      emergence of what is already always 'here'.


      Hi Jerry, Nonduality cannot be known, yet it can be realized.

      Nonduality is the default setting of life. Nonduality is 'what

      Inquiry like: 'Who am I?' is largely misunderstood. Most people
      seek 'the answer' to the inquiry. What they miss is that in this
      inquiry 'the question *is* the answer'.

      What does it mean that the question is the answer?-
      Thought/trying/seeking subsides and 'That' which one is, is
      lived. The inquiry 'Who am I?' reveals 'what you are not' - it
      shows that you are not the body, the intellect, the senses or
      anything that can be objectified. These things that 'you are
      not' is all that is manifested (some prefer to call it
      illusion)*** And*** they *point* to what you are- the 'living'
      question also reveals 'what is'!!!

      example: Words Words are not the thing they describe, yet their
      meaning points to something beyond themselves (thoughts also do
      this - it is an aspect of how the manifestation functions).

      example: Silence If all there is, is Silence, how could you
      understand it? You understand Silence because of sound. Sound is
      not Silence, It comes from Silence, is surrounded by Silence and
      returns to Silence. (the manifest points to the unmanifest - to
      understand the unmanifest, clearly see the manifest).

      When you are innocently with 'what is' (the
      manifestation-exactly as it shows up) without creating the
      mental idea of its opposite as 'what should be' or 'what I
      really am' then you are living in harmony with 'what is' and
      this is what you already are - what you always have
      been.......it simply shows up 'this way'. The inquiry 'Who am I'
      reveals the living present and when you truly see that the
      'question is the answer', then the words/thoughts fall away
      -*you are absent* and the timeless/nondual is! (you are the
      absence of your absence - the first absence is intellectual, the
      latter is when thought isn't).

      Life is relationship. See 'what is'. (An interesting experiment
      is to read all the creation myths and see the common themes -
      like...In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God, the
      Word is God - then behave as if these things were true - in
      other words - what if the manifestation actually is God and
      It/She/He simply shows up this way - would you in any way resist
      'what is' and want things to be some other way?- would you need
      to seek the Divine?)

      I am the Unknown and it is constantly revealing Itself.

      Love to all, James


      Nonduality has relevance only in a framework of duality. If the
      framework of duality is a concept, Nonduality is as much a

      "Can be realized" presupposes, a "realizer"

      When a "realizer" is no more, i,e, the entity to whom
      realization is an issue, is no more, to whom can there be a need
      to affirm (and affirm to whom), whether duality or Nonduality?

      When duality is all bananas, Nonduality is also, all bananas.


      Hi Sandeep, Exactly! If I say, 'I am that I am?' one can always
      question the words and ask, 'Who is it that realizes 'I am that
      I am'? or anything else that is said.

      So my point is to see things as they are! See 'what is' - see
      the nature and function of things like words and the 'manifest'.
      Instead of condemning the words and/or the manifestation, see
      them/it for what they are - they point to something beyond


      Without the requirement of upgrading software via Internet, I would have
      º>been silent about nonduality the entire life, because in a society like
      º>the present one, people are way too biased (through upbringing, education
      º>and media) to understand the "original discovery" of nonduality and both
      º>the laugh and beauty of it.
      º>And being unfamiliar not only with nonduality, but with the entirety of
      º>spirituality, and an atheist too, in my case, the discovery was made
      º>"worst case" conditions...

      ºAlone, amazed,
      º   yet no one there
      º   to be amazed.
      º"All this": no-thing.
      º"All these beings"
      º   unaware, walking
      º   around, yet
      º   "no-thing" it is --
      º   unaware, walking
      º   around.
      º"All this" and "all these"
      º   only no-thing the whole
      º   time.
      ºWho's been fooled?

      No thought whatsoever
      No feeling whatsoever
      Neither "me" nor "others"
      Not veiled by thought
      Not veiled by feeling
      Not veiled by "me" or "others"


      The nature of glass is transparency
      Yet it can offer resistance
      And get opaque when receiving blows

      The weight of the glass cage
      Only known when it is gone....
      Then it appears as to have never existed
      Transparency leaves no trace behind
      Other than a "normalized" human being





      My name is Karl and "Gurutalk" is a subject very dear to my
      heart. I love to hear of devotees experiences and learn about
      different enlightened masters. I am a devotee of Swami
      Muktananda of Ganeshpuri, India and thanks to His grace over the
      past twenty-two years have had many wonderful experiences. When
      Swami Muktananda finished His sadhana, His guru, Bhagawan
      Nityananda, revealed the Divine to Him in the form of an
      Infinite Blue Light. About 3 1/2 years ago, I was sleeping, and
      I had a dream that I was running furiously down a street. I
      heard Baba chanting "Hara, Hara, Mahadev" and my heart exploded
      with love. The force of this love was so powerful that in the
      dream I almost fell over. When I woke, from the point between
      the eyebrows, I saw a tiny stream of sparkling Blue Light.
      Within a couple days, I found that all I have to do is close my
      eyes for 10 minutes, and I see an infinite Field of Blue light.
      Everyday, I meditate, and the Blue Light never fails to appear.
      My beloved Baba has given me such a precious gift; I actually
      see the non-dual reality in the form of light, and I know that
      someday I will merge into it through grace. I do not know what I
      have done to deserve such a Gift; everyday I worship in my
      temple of Blue Light, and sometimes the breath is suspended, and
      everything disappears into a sea of Consciousness. This only
      lasts for about 10 or 15 seconds, but it is my hope that
      continued sadhana will enable me to extend these experiences.
      Karl Baumler


      Hi Karl,

      To my knowledge and experience, visions of blue light are a
      "side-effect" of Kundalini - these experiences are so highly
      individual, that to comment on them can be erroneous. A practice
      of concentrating on it is useful as it results in
      one-pointedness. As does the practice of concentrating on the
      "third eye".




      Further excerpts from The Song of Ribhu: The English Translation
      of the Tamil Ribhu Gita. Ordering information below:

      Chapter 5: All are Like the Horns of a a Hare; All Are Brahman

      All the mobile and immobile world is like the horns of a hare.
      This, the rare explanation by the grace of the Supreme Siva
      Is that of which I will speak now.
      Listen to this with a concentrated mind.
      All that is seen as manifold is like the horns of a hare.
      All objects that are seen are like the horns of a hare.
      The seer too, is like the horns of a hare.

      What is seen as all is like the horns of a hare.
      What appears as 'Truth' is like the horns of a hare.
      What is spoken in love is like the horns of a hare.
      Interestedly listening to it is like the horns of a hare.
      Teaching affectionately is like the horns of a hare.
      Brahma creating the world is like the horns of a hare.
      Hari protecting the world is like the horns of a hare.
      Hara destroying it is like the horns of a hare.

      Chapter 6: Speaking of the Bath in the Waters of Brahman and the
      Mantra for Brahman

      The best bath of all is the refreshing bath
      In the reservoir that is the Supreme Brahman,
      The perfectly full, which is not different from the Self.
      Brave son! no other bath
      In any other waters is a bath.

      There is no mantra at all
      To surpass the rare I-am-Brahman mantra,
      As the seven crores of might mantras
      Result only in several crores of births
      And do not alter, in the least, the succession of births,
      The blemishless I-am-Brahman mantra, greater than all,
      Should, hence, be resorted to,
      And all other mantras should be discarded.



      "The guru is the last impediment, the last vestige of form a god. Once
      you invest yourself in the guru and surrender to him. There is nothing
      else afterwards, so you become like Nisargadatta Maharaj you return to
      yourself. So it handy to have a guru even if it is to have the
      opportunity to dispense with this form". Tony.

      ~All of my teachers and gurus just showed up...
          sometimes despite my objections.
      Falling in love and falling in gratitude with Papaji
         was beyond choice.

      Those turning points when equality became obvious
         have also been given, not declared.


      EJ LIGHT
      from Impossible Reality list

      I would offer that only in man's conditioned arrogant
      self-importance does he *think* that he has some Divine volition
      to *create* anything other than the Illusions he is conditioned
      to think are Real. Most positive thinking efforts most often
      feeds humanity's folly. For it is not in filling the head that
      we Truly Awaken, but rather in Emptying it. It is not in
      individual self-importance that we Awaken, but rather in our
      insignificance. It is not in our separation that we Awaken, but
      rather in our Unity. It is not in our Duality that we Awakening,
      but rather in our NonDuality. It is not in taking on more
      conditioned ideas and images and meanings and notions of all
      sorts that we Awaken, but rather in our letting go of the
      conditioned baggage that we have already accumulated throughout
      our life.

      Wholeness or Totality is the foundation of NonDuality -- All Is
      One, a Unity of Multiplicity. But "divine volition" ? What is
      volition other than the ability to choose ? Volition, choice,
      Divine or otherwise, is but a contrivance of Duality. If All Is
      One, who is to choose ? If All Is One, what choices are there ?
      So who is there to create ? Even Einstein said that nothing is
      created but rather rearranged. There can only be One or Two, the
      seeming mixture is folly. If you are to be Wholeness or Totality
      or Oneness, may I offer that using Duality to do so is a
      hypocrisy and contradictory and will only add to already
      established delusion.

      It is one's Understanding or Awareness of What-IS that must be
      inclusive of All that IS. For "individual importance", even if
      you say it is "who's singular presence is the universe",
      connotes possession. Who is there to possess ? What can be
      possessed ? "Singular personage integrity" is counterproductive
      to Oneness or Wholeness or Totality.

      We are conditioned to "self-validate" via our conditioned
      notions. We are conditioned to *think* there is permanence ?
      These are our conditioned notions. There are aspects (Laws) of
      the Cosmos that are seemingly stable or permanent in our limited
      short duration in any given incarnation. Yet, as each Moment is
      Eternal and Infinite, each Moment IS anew and always in flux or


      from Allspirit

      Meaning to get a way from intellectualization and avoid word
      traps, I sailed across the sea to search for the transmission
      beyond the teachings; went on pilgrimages till my sandals broke-
      and found water in the clear stream, the moon in the sky.

      - Kakua (1143-?)



      from neosannyas 2 list

      My funniest sharing is about daily life herenow:
      Today it is very sunny in Munich,
      15 degrees celsius.

      We went to one of the beautiful lakes nearby,
      we are my girlfriend Mimamai,
      who makes me mostly laugh.

      We walked around a lake, called Wörth-See,
      it was so hot, that my Walrus-Skin
      needed a bath and dried in sun.

      Tonight we go to dance in a disco,
      who is run by Sannyasins,
      maybe Jivano will join.

      Jivano is a friend of mine,
      calling himself Bhagwan,
      and loves to write.


      from Guru Ratings list

      "When you think a guru is needed, and the teacher says: "No guru
      is needed," there will be conflict. And when, a month later, you
      think: "All this shit with gurus, all that spiritial
      hocus-pocus, I quit, it's all useless," there will be conflict
      too, because then the other side shows up. Because both sides
      are true!"

      Gosh, this is my experience exactly! Plus, even if I don't
      "need" a teacher, I like having one (or more). In fact, as long
      as it stays non-surrendery and there are no abuses of power,
      it's quite pleasant...nuttin' like it.

      I tend to favor teachers who are uncomfortable with being called
      teachers, the ones who give you real tools you can use, and
      those who tell you you already know/have everything but are
      still available to you when you think you don't (Pamela Wilson,
      Byron Katie, e.g.). Much better and healthier to be in
      relationship to "real people," IMHO, as opposed to those who
      play huge shakti-trips and employ major mind control (won't name
      any names -- most have been mentioned here already!).

      Even so -- as the official poster child for once burned, twice
      shy -- I tend to keep a certain distance from the teachers I
      love the most, which, for now, works for me. There are those who
      would say, "She's not doing it right," but ya know what? Scroom.