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519Wednesday, November 1

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  • umbada@ns.sympatico.ca
    Nov 3, 2000

      Announcing a new eclectic online magazine on spirituality, based
      in Nepal




      i am living in a dream. So much time spent looking out from

      How can I engage you from here?! so much seperation, and effort
      to maintain these walls that define me and define you.

      when touching deeper, just a little bit deeper, to find the soft
      place that hurts in my heart. that soft place...is empathy. ego
      feels hurt because it misunderstands the signals. Another's
      suffering is a key to open the heart, but ego sees this as a
      signal to close.

      feel everything, but don't own the feeling. act from a calm
      place that knows tears are keys. tears *are* human state.
      Samsara in a rainbow seed falling from your eyes. You cry my
      tears, and i cry yours.

      so what do you think of my dream?

      maitri,(this means 'lovingkindness' in sanskrit)

      --janpa (hehehe, this means 'maitri' in Tibetan)



      JODY: Whether or not you choose to consider it "dirty work," the
      fact is that the contents of the mind (including all the
      samskaras, habits of personality, memory, etc.) are still very
      much in existence after realization occurs.

      JB: I can't really comment on that as in my case the dominant
      samskara was the one that burns out the others. So the event of
      Self-realization has become a minor event like doing the dishes
      - nothing special.

      JODY: The only thing different is that now you have a little
      perch from where you can survey the mess. That is, instead of
      being identified with it exclusively, you have a vantage point
      with which you can get an idea of just how much devastation
      there is.

      JB: When figuratively speaking, I came to my senses again, that
      coming to the senses again was precisely what wasn't
      appreciated. And I understood that it takes very long for "ego"
      to die. "Ego" in the sense of how Ramana it once described:
      (Rendered in my words): "The body by itself is like an
      insentient log. Ego is the entity providing the illusion it has

      JODY: Whether or not you see it as dirty, it's a hellava lot of
      work to "clean" up. It doesn't happen magically, drugs don't
      take care of it, and your guru can't do it for you.

      JB: The cleaning up often is attributed to Kundalini, depicted
      as a snake. The end of all cleaning then, is the snake having
      swallowed its own tail. But with the exception of a rare
      occasion, when during 120 hours some yoga practice was held,
      there was no idea of "doing work".

      JODY: All you can do is fall back on yourself, haul your ass up,
      and get to work. Don't expect to hold to any timetables though,
      as God is always ready to throw a monkey wrench or two in the
      works, just to keep you on your toes.

      JB: The idea of "work" is notably manifest in alchemical
      writings but it refers only to the "mystical union", not to the
      annihilation of "ego" in the above meaning. Rosicrucianism
      (Dutch) is a bit more clear, also considering the "mystical
      union" to be "work" or transmutation, after which the notion of
      "work" is absent. You are right about time tables, they are
      foolish and a thing of the "ego" which cannot annihilate itself.
      And when sleep deprivation of say, 5 days, doesn't cause a
      change in emotionality anymore, one either is "progressing with
      the work" or dead :)



      here is an audio piece that I came across this week, of Guy
      Finley, and he directly speaks about this very thing, parenting,
      in this piece.



      Questioner to Wayne(Liquorman): So, if this Enlightenment is a
      matter of Grace, then why should we seek? Why should we not just
      give up?

      Wayne: Try giving up! (laughter) You didn't ask to become a
      seeker. The seeking started. So 'you' can't give it up. It's the
      same thing as having sex with a 600 hundred pound
      gorilla...you're not done until the gorilla is done. (laughter)



      Wayne's book was written before Wayne got into the teaching biz,
      and at the time the book was written, he really didn't want to
      be known. He's got a strong, Falstaffian personality, in person,
      accentuated by a booming voice and sharp delivery. He doesn't
      read this list I'm pretty sure, but has dipped in and out of NDS
      in the past, and knows something about it, at least the site. He
      has his own message board at advaita.org.

      One thing I can say about the content of his book and perhaps
      about the tone. It was written after years of attending
      advaita-satsang-style talks given by Ramesh. There are certain
      repeating patterns that attendees exhibit in their questions,
      from satsang to satsang. Especially with Ramesh's talks (the way
      they are done, not addressing personal emotional issues like
      other satsangs do), there are plenty of questions, but only a
      small number of *different* questions. The rest of the questions
      are the same ones with different wording, mostly about Ramesh's
      concept of enlightenment and how to "get" it for one's "self."
      Wayne had been at lots of the talks in many different locations,
      and the book reflects his reaction to the common questions. Have
      you ever been to any satsang-style talks? If so, you'll sort of
      recognize what I mean. If I say more, it won't make too much
      sense (as if the rest has!) unless you have lots of satsangs
      under your belt, either as a questioner or answerer.



      GARY: To practise stillness implies movement so to practise is
      not to practise Not to practise stillness implies no movement so
      not to practise is to practise the problem is in the actor who
      believes he/she is doing something wu wei non doing is to
      practise by not to practise no self involved except illusion
      therof stillness pointed to but not practised

      SANDEEP: Practise (whatever the particular form of practise be)
      and non-practise (whatever the particular form of non-practise
      be), if either occur, are both movements, happenings,
      non-volitional occurrences.

      The "me-entity" thinking that it is pactising or that it has now
      understood the futility and is now non-practising, is one and
      the same game.

      So the "doing" whether in the form of practise or in the form of
      non-practise is hardly relevant. Is there any "entity" which
      adds a sense of volition to either is the key.

      Mis dos Centavos



      without me
      there is no one to practice
      perfect, limitless, stillness!

      but if there is a me
      (as nonexistent as it is)
      my one cent is


      there is no doubt
      when me is gone
      not a single thought of

      only you yourself know

      love , cee



      The Holy Fire


      I am the Beloved gazing upon and reflecting the Beloved.

      I who am one, am two, both Lover and Beloved, sweet paradox.

      She, who is neither one nor two, is me. We, together, are One.

      Without the Lover meditating upon the Beloved there is no Other.

      Without the Beloved meditating upon the Lover there is no Love.

      Until you understand this, you are less than a shadow in dreaming.

      Mark Christopher Valentine



      We're taught to feel, think and act selectively, depending on
      variables of social recognition.

      But if we feel this incomplete, if it is, therefore, indeed,
      incomplete, some feeling, thought and/or action, is therefore
      being neglected.

      What is being neglected?

      To feel God, it must be OK to feel everything, think everything,
      do everything. Only we can give ourselves that permission.

      Experience all the subtlety. Experience all the extremity, if
      you wish to experience God.

      If, for some reason, the experience of God, you believe, has
      been neglected.

      Be God, if this, you believe, has been neglected.



      XAN: My offering of unwanted advice, sky, is: when all these
      pains and pleasures arise, apply the infamous "So What"
      technique. Try it... it is free

      SKY: But I love my feelings, both of pleasure and of pain.
      Besides, "so what" is also a feeling.

      XAN: I am not saying you need to change in any way, sky. And I
      would never suggest that anyone try to get away from their
      feelings.... that foolishness doesn't work for long.

      As I see it "so what" is a thought that leads to a feeling. I am
      curious about what feeling the "so what" thought would give you.

      For me there follows a sense of outrageous subtle laughter and
      expansion. With these glories, I have given up my romance with



      XAN: As my friend said, "The problem is not what you are
      thinking, but that you are thinking."

      HARSHA: Whether you are thinking or not cannot be the problem.
      Thinking is automatic. Its stoppage is automatic in deep
      dreamless sleep and in Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In deep meditation,
      thoughts can be seen clicking precisely like a clock as they
      come to the surface.

      So thinking is not a problem at all. Thinking has its own nature
      but you want to tinker with it. That is a problem! You are
      giving the natural mechanism undue importance - that is a

      Ultimately, the only real problem is that you think there is a
      problem! :-).


      Things have their nature. Trees are not cats. Trees cannot say
      "meow" unless the wind rustles through the leaves precisely in a
      certain way. Even then it is not quite convincing. Well, anyone
      can say "meow" once in a while. Mind has its own nature.
      Supermind has its own nature. All these states,...you can call
      them risings in consciousness, occurrences in the universe, or
      just things and conditions existing in emptiness. It does not

      When you hear a lion roar, you will not mistake it for a dog!

      Do you carry a mirror around just in case you forget your face?



      The entity which each of us is, we find in the assertion "I am".
      In the ordinary everyday world, there are many ways of being.
      Thinking is one of those ways. (For a human being, being human.)
      The "isness" of all ways of being is "I am". The problem
      (mystery) for the thinking being is... what does being mean?

      Did someone say "Doobeedoobeedooo"?


      I am in the world, the world I am in is in me.

      The world is not avoidable. This state was not chosen.

      Still there are possibilities.




      I have often wondered if there wasn't some significant divide
      between those on this list with children involved in the
      education system, and those who had no children.

      It seems to me as a parent concerned with the pressures my
      daughter faces in memorizing information, following strict
      schedules, and meeting standards, that there isn't a stronger
      world dream pressure to deal with by parents than those who are
      not parents.

      What do you parents have to say about this, and to what extent
      do you non-parents enpathize with this issue?

      Wondering parent



      i am planning to have a child. or more specifically, to adopt a
      child. will probably go to CHina and adopt a little girl. She'll
      be named in part after my late sister.

      She, i expect, will raise me. ;)



      I have three children and each of them is quite different. I am
      going to talk about the middle one.

      She and I were just sitting at the table. I was playing with the
      kitten and she was writing an essay and reading it to me. This
      child is such a go-getter. She is determined to be the
      valedictorian with an IB diploma. IB class earn you 5 points for
      an A and with an IB diploma you go straight into the sophomore
      year of college.She is in six IB classes and she has an A in all
      of them. She is president of the key club and president of the
      young women's organization in the church she went out and
      joined. She is on the badminton team and it just goes on an on
      and on. I look at her and I realize she is doing everything just
      the opposite of what I did. I asked her how she saw me and she
      said ..."No offense mom but you are uneducated." :-)

      I tell her she doesn't have to work so hard. It doesn't have to
      be perfect. She says she doesn't want to be like me. She wants
      to accomplish something with her life. I hear her discussing
      politics and other current issues. She sounds so informed but it
      sounds so boring to me. I want to romp in the woods with the

      I guess what I am saying is that I don't see her as a victim of
      pressure. She is thriving on it. She wouldn't have it any other


      I have been watching the next generation. It seems that many of
      them are taking the bull by the horns. My generation of flower
      children and drugs and love children seems to be producing a
      fair amount of serious go-getters. And in some ways it seems as
      if this may be just what the world needs to solve some the major
      problems facing the adults of the 21st century.

      It is a surprise to hear my children have well thought out
      opinions on abortion, ecology, politics. It seems to me that
      this is what they are meant to do at this stage of their lives.
      They have to get a little life under their belts before they
      will be interested things like the "world dream".

      My daughter is on the phone right now with one of my friends who
      is interested in history. She always talks to him when she is
      working on history. Another call came in and she takes it and
      says that she can't talk cause she is talking to a fifty year
      old man. (actually he is fifty-four but who is counting) Think
      of how they see us and see who you really think thinks the other
      guy is suffering.



      MATTHEW: I do not think that there is a stronger "world dream
      pressure" for parents to deal with than non-parents. The "world
      dream pressure" as you call it is the same for every one. Like
      living at the bottom of the ocean the pressure is the same for
      all. We just all deal with that pressure differently and have
      different capacities to keep from being crushed by it. The
      strongest role models for children are adults in their
      environment, usually parents, so if we are looking to find a way
      for our children to deal with the "world dream pressure" then we
      need first to look to ourselves to be examples. I have been
      fortunate with my girls (21+13)in that we raised them in a
      communal setting where they had other adults than just the two
      of us to choose from for role models. We home schooled them till
      they were 13, raised them as vegetarians, have no TV, introduced
      them to meditation and devotional practices, have travelled
      widely with them to europe and india, they have studied
      classical ballet and aikido, and are both exceptional artists.
      But all this is just experience / form. The most beneficial
      thing in terms of the "world dream pressure" has been for them
      to live amongst people who are committed to piercing the
      illusion of separation, the identification with "me". That kind
      of thing is just picked up by them through "osmosis".

      ED: What concerns me, and I don't think it was addressed by
      Marcia was: knowing that to be caught in the world dream is to
      suffer, and for the child to be seen by the parent as separate
      and suffering, what thoughts, if any, arise in the parent to
      address that issue?

      MATTHEW: The way i look at it is that just by the fact of
      incarnating we are all caught by the world dream. Another name
      for the world dream is identification, or the illusion of
      separation. And it is painful to see our children suffering the
      illusion of separation. All humans suffer this way no matter
      what the form of our lives. The most beneficial thing we can do
      for our children is to Work to pierce that illusion in
      ourselves. Seeing our own children suffer is a good stepping
      stone for the developement of Compassion toward all sentient
      beings.If perhaps you are wondering whether just madly loving
      them is enough,it isn't.