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32digest for Wednesday, June 30

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  • Melody
    Jul 1, 1999
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      Nondual Digest - for Wednesday, June 30, 1999:

      Today's digest begins with a few original offerings
      from the Salon, followed by a discussion of J Krishnamurti,
      and ending with a few quotes of Papaji's.

      For those beginning an early weekend celebration,
      happy 4th of July!

      To join the Nonduality Salon please go to
      <http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nondualitysalon>

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      from: "Maurice" <postage@...>

      Toto Bardoque Update:

      The Toto Bardoque was attended by more Gombies than expected, unfortunately
      (or fortunately) Toto did not show up.

      It was kind of humorous watching all these Gombies trying to find little
      Toto to Bardoque. They devised all manner of methods to capture the little
      Doggie, but Toto seemed too illusive. As time went on, as it is apt to do,
      some Gombies got a little annoyed, lost, more hungry, and diverted into
      party chit-chat:

      Gomblion: You know, some are thinking about copyrighting their minds.

      Gombear: Why not just patent your body?

      Gombtin: Would that include the mind?

      Gombgirl: But what is the point? Why would anyone want your body-mind when
      they have their own?

      Gombtin: They feel something is missing in their own and maybe you got
      something they want.

      Gombgirl: You mean someone would like to look like Gombear?

      Gombtin: �or the Tin Man

      (Laughter)

      Gombear: Yes, you see the Tin Man should have a patent on that tin body.

      Gomblion: And the Wonderful Wizard of Oz, that's a copyright if ever I saw
      one.

      Gombear: I am hungry and why are we waiting for for Godo�

      Gombgirl: That's Toto, Toto�you are waiting to find Toto. And what about
      Toto? Can we patent Toto too?

      Gombtin: We can't even find Toto, how are we going to patent? Someone said
      they saw Toto with a girl on a bicycle going in the general direction of Oz.

      Gombear: What I wonder is why you think a Gombie is worth a patent?

      Gombtin: Well, suppose you had Betty Davis eyes or the voice of that girl in
      the Wizard of Oz?

      Gomblion: I bet that whole cast has a copyright somewhere.

      Gombear: So you think you are worth a patent?

      Gomblion: Why not? Would not that help prove I was worth something?

      Gombear: Gombies are a dime a dozen�

      Gomblion: All the more reason to get a patent. Lots of Gombies but each is
      different and special, are they not?

      Gombgirl: But then why patent? If it is the uniqueness in each Gombie that
      is special why would a Gombie want another Gombie's material?

      Gombear: Because they don't know what's special about them?

      Gombgirl: Maybe we should ask the Bardoque Wizard?

      All Gombies in unison: We're off to see the wonderful Wizard of Bardoque�

      (Laughter)

      (In the Crystal Palace of Many Mirrors)

      Wizard: I never promised you a rose garden.

      Gomblion: But you offered a Toto Bardoque�

      Wizard: And you have not found a Toto to Bardoque.

      Gombtin: Why should we find Toto? I feel rusty.

      Gombear: And I'm hungry.

      Gombgirl: And tired. And what's the point?

      Wizard: Did you follow the Golden Umbilical Cord to get here? Are you hungry
      and tired enough? Do you already see the meaningless copies of yourselves?
      Do you want yet another dream? And no Toto, no Toto? Don't you see, you are
      the Bardoque. To find Toto you have to Be Toto, then you can copy and patent
      or not copy and patent what you will.

      Gombgirl: You mean I have to lose my Gombie life to gain Eternal Life?

      Gombear: I don't want to die.

      Gombtin: Holy smoke!

      Gomblion: I want Toto, or perhaps, my clone would do?

      Wizard: Yes, that is what most Gombies want, some substitute, some delusion,
      some dream life. In fact, that is the definition of who you are as Gombies.
      A Gombie can't be much more than a celluloid dream, an object in a movie.
      Are you even alive? Does the shadow have any substance? Let me tell you,
      with absolute certainty, you Gombies will never find Toto. You will never
      find Toto Reality because whenever you find a Toto a Gombie disappears.

      Gombtin: Oh my God!

      Gombear: What's to be done? What's to be done?

      Wizard: Gombear, you remind me a little of Alice. Perhaps a rabbit hole
      would do; and when you meet the Queen, let her chop your head off.

      Gombgirl: I'm sick and tired of�

      Wizard: Good. More. Get more sick and tired of Gombieism. You need to suffer
      more�get stuck and staked, roasted in the fire of the Bardoque Party Grill
      until there is nothing left but Life; and some will want to eat you in
      remembrance of your body-mind, obviously no copyright needed.

      Gombear: This is disgusting.

      Wizard: Well, perhaps a statue for you Gombear. We'll take your ashes and
      make a statue out of them (patent pending) and call it The Ash-Gombear. What
      do you think?

      Gombear: Disgusting.

      Wizard: But don't you want your life to have some purpose, meaning? Ha! Ha!
      Ha! Hey, you all, come a little closer (They gather around the Wizard who
      whispers)�Do you think Toto has any purpose? (Wizard breaks out in loud
      laughter) Ha! Ha! Ha!

      Gomblion: I'm getting the hell outa here!

      Wizard: Will, give my regards to those other Sidpa Gombies on Broadway.

      Maurice: Love Ya�

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      From: Xanma@...

      As I go along understanding becomes simpler and simply surprising. How easy
      it can be to shift awareness from
      what I am aware of - sense impressions, thoughts, feelings -
      to awareness itself. It's no more complicated than that,
      yet because we have become complication itself simplicity
      seems unreal and valueless. We have reversed everything
      in the attempt to create meaning where it is not. We can
      return to real meaning - simple beingness - by looking at the
      values and identities we have made up, with detachment. Then
      by looking at what is looking. Then by being that.

      As for me,
      the feeling of laughter
      deep in my body
      lets me know
      I'm free.

      Xan

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      What is the difference between your view of reality & that of a saint?

      The saint knows that all of reality is a sublime chess-game w/God, & that
      his beloved has just made such a brilliant move, that he is now constantly
      tripping over joy & bursting out laughing: 'I surrender'

      Whereas you, my dear, I'm afraid you still think you have a thousand
      serious moves.

      (This is some Sufi poem I think - I'm writing it from memory...)

      Love,
      Toon

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: Tim Gerchmez <fewtch@...>


      Hi List,

      Last night I was reading a book called "Questioning Krishnamurti," which
      contains a lot of "interviews" with the man conducted by many different
      people.

      My feeling is that J. Krishnamurti was one of the greatest *philosophers*
      of nonduality of all time. I think the reason why his message "gets
      through" to so few is that people are not looking for philosophy, they are
      looking for Divinity.

      Krishnamurti stuck completely to practical matters, showing a clear path to
      pure Advaita. Yet his methods were a "turn-off" to too many people. They
      were *too* scientific and rational. Rationality goes a long way when it
      comes to the pure sciences, but with spirituality it only goes so far.
      Krishnamurti was perhaps the "purest" jnani I've ever encountered in my
      readings... more so than even Shankara, and he was even more practical than
      Buddha. He rarely touched the human heart. He only occasionally referred
      to the importance of appreciating beauty. His approach was to go directly
      to the source, bypassing all else along the way. Question, question,
      question was Krishnamurti's "motto." In the energy of the question lies
      the answer, he tells us. And this is truth. This man was unquestionably
      "realized." Yet, his teachings were largely unable to satisfy the needs of
      the human heart. They appealed to the mind only.

      Hari OM,

      Tim

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Thanks for your report, Tim.
      It coincides with a great
      deal of opinion among
      nondualists, both "realized"
      and aspirants. Do you
      remember Jerry's
      Krishnamurti anecdote? He
      seems in accord with you
      about the writings while
      seeing through to the heart
      of the man through personal
      encounter. If you're
      interested, you might want
      to read "Krishnamurti's
      Notebook," perhaps the most
      overtly poetic and mystical
      of his many tomes. One
      rarely catches a glimpse of
      this aspect of him through
      his many books of dialogues
      and lectures, but it is most
      definitely there.

      Much love -- Bruce

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Following is a passage from the book
      "J.Krishnamurti as I Knew Him" by
      Susunaga Weeraperuma.

      THE INFINITE

      K fully understood the futility of attempting to
      describe the indescribable. He was primarily
      concerned with the removal of obstacles, the
      unconditioning of the mind so to speak, so
      that the mind itself is metamorphosed into a
      purified receptacle for the visitation of the
      Infinite. In this respect, K was so very much
      like the Buddha, who also had refused to make
      positive statements about the Infinite but preferred
      alluding to its nature by a series of negative
      declarations. Nirvana was indirectly called the
      unborn, the uncreated, the unoriginated and
      the unformed. The conditioned mind, according
      to K, is incapable of communicating with the
      unconditioned state or the otherness. Between
      the conditioned and the unconditioned no
      relationship whatsoever is possible.

      The evening when K referred to the Infinite
      with intense feeling is one of my happiest
      recollections. "Believe me, I only see a
      fragment of the Infinite," he said. Then after
      wiping the tears off his ecstatic face, he
      added: "You cannot see it all. Such is the
      immensity of the Infinite."

      Be Well,
      KKT

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      TimG:
      Even with clear signs that
      his teachings were not "getting through" to many, still he continued with
      what he believed was the best way to "teach." I believe on his deathbed he
      was asked if he felt anyone had ever understood/applied his teachings, and
      he replied "Nobody at all." And then weakly, "perhaps if they continue to
      live the teachings..." A life dedicated to selfless service to the
      intrinsic rightness of what is perceived as truth, a driving need to
      communicate that truth, to point others to the freedom he himself found...
      this to me is so rare that it's almost worthy of worship. This man was a
      saint, in his way.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      In his early years Krishnamurti wrote a great deal of beautiful lyric
      poetry; and his poetical and mystical side is evident in all the works
      he actually wrote, as contrasted with the transripts of his talks. For
      example, his three volumes of Commentaries on Living, in which each
      chapter begins with a lovely evocation of Place from one who is totally
      aware, without a trace of attachment or aversion.

      And I know from my own experience that although on the lecture platform
      he was a tiger, off the platform he was a lamb.

      OM shantih,

      Bob

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      J.K. was a guy who had an extraordinary life, proclaimed as virtually an
      incarnated Godin his childhood, and rebelling against that. Here's a bit of
      stuff he wrote in 1922, when he was 27, about a life-changing event, as
      quoted in Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, by Mary Lutyens(1975);
      "...Then on the 17th August, I felt acute pain at the nape of my neck and I
      had to cut down my meditation to fifteen minutes. The pain instead of getting
      better as I had hoped grew worse. The climax was reached on the 19th. I could
      not think, nor was I able to do anything, and I was forced by friends here to
      retire to bed. Then I became almost unconscious, though I was well aware of
      what was happening around me. I came to myself at about noon each day. On the
      first day while I was in that state and more conscious of the things around
      me, I had the most extraordinary experience. There was a man mending the
      road; that man was myself; the pickaxe he held was myself; the very stone he
      was breaking up was a part of me; the tender blade of grass was my very
      being, and the tree beside the man was myself... I was in everything, or
      rather everything was in me, inanimate and animate, the mountain, the worm,
      and all breathing things...
      The morning of the next day...My head was pretty bad and the top part
      felt as though many needles were being driven in...When I had sat thus
      (meditating) for some time, I felt myself going out of my body, I saw myself
      sitting down with the delicate tender leaves of the tree over me. I was
      facing the east. In front of me was my body and over my head I saw the Star,
      bright and clear. Then I could feel the vibrations of the Lord Buddha; I
      beheld the Lord Maitreya and Master K.H.(Koot Hoomi), I was so happy, calm
      and at peace. I could still see my body and was hovering near it. There was
      such profound calmness both in the air and within myself, the calmness of the
      bottom of a deep unfathomable lake. Like the lake, I felt my physical body,
      with its mind and emotions, could be ruffled on the surface but nothing nay
      nothing could disturb the calmness of my soul. The Presence of the mighty
      Beings was with me for some time and then They were gone. I was supremely
      happy for I had seen. Nothing could ever be the same..."

      andrew

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Warren wrote:


      K tried to appeal to people strictly through the frontal lobes, and the vast
      majority of human beings simply aren't driven from there. This is not to
      cast aspersions on anybody, just an observation.

      (and)

      K stressed the importance of appreciating beauty, especially of nature,
      all his life. He
      frequently bemoaned the fact that most people are so insensitive to beauty.

      Speaking of K, has anybody out there read "Lives in the Shadow", by
      Rajagopal's daughter? I didn't agree with her overall assessment of K (I
      think she knew him too well to see his greatness), but her story of K's
      30-year affair with her mother (Rajagopal's wife) rang true. I suppose this
      revelation was intended to diminish our regard for K - in my case, it
      actually increased it (but maybe I'm strange :-). It also explained the
      sharp turn-about in K's teaching about sexual matters, which his biographer
      Miss Luytens noticed but was unable to explain.

      Warren (I'm new)

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Jerry wrote:

      It must be the full moon. I don't read much Krishnamurti,
      but I picked up a book of his about three days ago and have
      been reading it. It is called The Book of Life and consists
      of one brief passage per day for each day of the year, and
      one theme for each week of the year, so 52 themes. This is
      the most accessible Krishnamurti I've seen. Listen:

      "Truth or understanding comes in a flash, and that flash has
      no continuity; it is not within the field of time. Do see
      this for yourself. Understanding is fresh, instantaneous. It
      is not the continuity of something that has been. What has
      been cannot bring you understanding. As long as one is
      seeking a continuity -- wanting permanency in relationship,
      in love, longing to find peace everlasting, and all the rest
      of it -- one is pursuing something that is within the field
      of time and therefore does not belong to the timeless."

      Welcome, Warren, to this gathering. I will say one other
      thing about the time I approached Krishanmurti after his
      talk back in 1980 at Ojai. Please do not take this as any
      personal favoring of 'me'. It was not that. But this must
      exemplify his attentiveness toward fellow man. For after
      having spoken for an hour, this 85 year old man, turned to
      me as though he had been expecting me or waiting for me, as
      though he had known me. He wasn't just being gracious. He
      showed care. Pham mentioned infinity. Tim mentioned
      elsewhere about seeing infinity in one's eyes.
      Krishnamurti's entire form held that 'look' of infinity. So
      when Krishnamurti turned to greet me and shake my hand, it
      was infinity turning toward me. That night my chest was full
      energy. It was clear that he transmitted it to me. I'd never
      known it before or after. It was a kind of initiation. Other
      people were surprised I'd approached him, as nobody was
      around him at all except for one other gentleman. But my
      feeling was that I had to meet him. It was not something I
      had planned to do. I found myself walking toward him.

      ---Jerry

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      From: Gloria Lee

      Since its a day to quote J.Krishnamuti, here is a favorite. The context sets
      it up..tho to me the last line goes off like fireworks.

      So what is important is to see the truth of something, and not ask how to
      carry it out-which really means that you don't see the truth of it. When you
      meet a cobra on the road you don't ask, "What am I to do?" You understand
      very well the danger of a cobra and you stay away from it. But you have
      never really examined all the implications of envy; nobody has ever talked
      to you about it, gone into it very deeply with you. You have been told that
      you must not be envious, but you have never looked into the nature of envy;
      you have never observed how society and all the organized religions are
      built on it, on the desire to become something. But the moment you go into
      envy and really see the truth of it, envy drops away. To ask, "How am I to
      do it?" is a thoughtless question because when you are really interested in
      something which you don't know how to do, you go at it and soon begin to
      find out. If you sit back and say, "Please tell me a practical way to get
      rid of greed" you will continue to be greedy. But if you inquire into greed
      with an alert mind, without any prejudice, and if you put your whole being
      into it, you will discover for yourself the truth of greed;

      and it is the truth that frees you, not your looking for a way to be free.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Xan offers 2 quotes from Papaji:


      from Papaji

      "From birth to death you have lived for others. Even before birth your
      parents were expecting you. When you were born you already belonged to them.
      Can you spare just a few moments solely for yourself? Leave all
      definition behind. Immediately upon birth, you were already possessed. Then
      some priest came to initiate you into this fold or sect. You then belonged to
      that religion.
      In truth, you are not only son of God, you are God itself. But who knows
      this religion? In truth, you have no concept of religion at all. You are
      pure, immaculate, conscious Self. Freedom itself."

      (and)

      From: Xanma@...

      from Papaji

      "Only the Truth is and you are That!
      You Are the unchanging Awareness in which all activities takes place.
      To deny this is to suffer, to know this is Freedom.

      It is not difficult to realize this because it is your True Nature.
      Simply Inquire 'Who am I?' and Watch Carefully.
      Do not make effort and do not stir a thought.
      Look within, approach with all-devotion and stay as Heart.
      Keep vigilant and you will see that nothing will arise.

      This is the trick of how to keep the mind quiet
      and how to win Freedom. This doesn't take time
      because Freedom is always Here.
      You simply have to watch: where does mind arise from?
      Where does thought come from? What is the source of this thought?
      Then you will see that you have always been Free
      and that everything has been a dream."

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~