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  • andrew macnab
    Feb 1, 2000

      ***Divine double-date in Santa Cruz:


      Well I'm still in Judi's room! Actually I've been spending amazing time
      with Judi, Christiana and our very own ==Gene Poole==.

      I am at a loss for words. I am in the midst of experiencing these
      people, in the midst of intimacy and closeness unimaginable through mere
      e-mail. This is the community. We are together. There is love and being
      here. I see a potential for this community, for grater communion. We are
      more together than we know.


      Hi All...

      Yes, I am here, using Judi's computer. Needless to say, I am deeply
      delighted to be in such esteemed company... Jerry, Christiana, and now,

      I will be headed back to Spokane, on Wednesday. Now, I am destined to
      consume a meal of Mexican food, here in Santa Cruz.

      I love this.

      I a wonderful flow,

      ==Gene Poole==

      ok.. my turn...

      all that I KNOW is the grace of being basked in the warm glow of loving


      **** hehe :-)


      There it is, folks -- "God,"
      which in the past has taken
      form as Shiva, Kali Ma,
      Krishna, Yahweh, Buddha,
      Tara, Bodhidarma, Jesus,
      Rumi, and Shankara, today
      manifests as a divine
      double-date by the sea,
      replete with much salsa! :-)


      ***Dutch (Jan K.) asks a question:

      I was told once by Alexander that there are two 'schools' in Advaita.
      The Shankara tradition, and the Janeshwar tradition. Can anyone elaborate on
      As I've been told, in the Shankara tradition, the world is seen as an
      illusion, and only the Self is real. This caused a lot of people to
      'abandon' the whole world an see their wifes, children, and so on, as an
      illusion (mind you, 'seeing as', in stead of 'knowing'...)
      As a result, a lot of people turned to the other side, and 'embraced' the
      "Go for that man, go for that woman, cause the world is real."
      In the Janeshwar tradition the emphasis is on TOTALLY accepting this

      Is this historically correct? :-)


      ***Cyndy tells a story:

      Hot desert sun, feeling my skin tighten and redden and glow. Clear blue
      sky, some days littered with fluffy white clouds in the shape of rabbits,
      cats, or a banquet of musicians.
      Watching long spikes of grass rustle in the breeze, an ant holding
      onto his structure, swaying with the force of the unseen wind.
      Many times I'd follow the ants to their home, becoming a part of
      the community. Each had a purpose, each had a personal grain of sand or
      food to share.
      What will I share? With whom? Where?
      Riding to California in the back of an old yellow pickup truck, wind
      burning and chapping my skin, my hair becoming a complete knot of tangles
      like my mind. I see the ocean for the first time in my life. Not one to
      wade gingerly, I run into the waves and try to swim. The waves show a
      strength I cannot fight, pulling me under, slamming my body against the
      rocky floor, my skin broken, my respect for this force strengthened.
      Each wave a small ant, working with the other waves, each with a
      personal grain of sand or food to share.
      I am that tiny ant, the forceful wave, the fluffy cloud. My grain
      is with me to share, at times too tiny to see, at times too forceful to
      keep, at times to fluffy to grasp.

      ***Dan responds to the excerpt from Arjuna Nick Ardagh posted by Xan (see
      yesterday's highlights)about ongoing work after awakening:

      Xan, thanks for sharing this. Now, what exactly
      is "work on oneself," or "awareness eternally noticing
      awareness alone"?

      The real work is beyond effort or effortlessness, and
      is thus "no work," which does not mean complacency at all.
      Such work takes no time and occurs no place. As nothing is to
      be done, infinitely, it will take infinity to do this nothing.
      Nothing occurs, therefore one's work must be total and involve
      all of who one is. While working, rest totally and fully.

      Let work be play, let action be nondoing, let movement be rest.
      I'm moving at the speed of light, thus there is nothing not
      moving at the speed of light, thus nothing is moving
      (as seen from here, Sarlo ;-)

      When you talk to me about our lifelong work, this conversation
      occurs when and how? Who can say? Our entire lifetime is over
      as soon as it "begins". How many centuries have passed, how
      many apparent beings have worked on this, since this question
      was first raised? The questions with which we occupy ourselves
      (how to work, how not to work, etc.) are like vapors from a cup
      of tea.

      Enjoying this cup with you,

      ***Roger has something to say to J.K. on meditation:

      >Meditation is not the repetition
      >of the word, nor the experiencing
      >of vision, nor the cultivating of
      >silence. The bead and the word
      >do quieten the chattering mind,
      >but this is a form of self-
      >hypnosis. You might as well take
      >a pill.
      >--- J. Krishnamurti

      K�s comments have to be taken in a limited context, IMHO. They are not

      When the mind is chattering, when awareness is overwhelmed by thought, there
      are numerous helpful techniques. People move through different stages of
      development on the quest. When the mind is chattering away and taking
      awareness away with it, then some technique from the arsenal of Yogas/tantra
      can be useful in stilling the mind. Technique can develop the will such that
      increasing with mere effortless intention the mind is held in stillness.

      But hey, let�s acknowledge that most people have absolutely NO idea how to
      still the mind with effortless intention. And for people at this stage
      technique is appropriate.

      K�s comment is right on in pointing out that technique can be a trap, that
      techniques to still the mind are only preparatory. In fact I suspect many
      people are slaves to technique, perhaps to techniques that aren�t really
      useful for them.

      I acknowledge what K is saying by �nor the cultivating of silence�. All we
      can do is cultivate silence, however, this is only a preparatory measure.
      Communion in Grace is beyond all cultivation or effort. Yet without silence
      the chattering mind will certainly extinguish or prevent the possibility of
      extended, repeated & permanent communion in Grace.

      Some questions I like at the moment:
      When is awareness lost or overwhelmed by thought or emotion?
      When is awareness receptively still?
      If awareness is overwhelmed, can subtle effort be taken to move towards
      receptive stillness?
      I believe there are many types of subtle effort, some techniques are
      suitable for devotional types, other techniques for discriminative people,
      other techniques for those skilled with subtle energy, etc�. (www.newu.org)
      When is awareness in this state of higher Meditation that �K� is pointing
      to? Instructional glimpses will likely be provided!
      And, is the performance of meditation technique actually interfering with
      the development of receptive stillness/ higher absorption in communion? Have
      I become a slave to technique?
      Conversely, being entertained with mere thoughts about nonduality is less
      than Being.


      ***Roger and Xan and Phil orbiting:

      Roger: But how to go beyond mere thought ?

      ~ Notice the awareness that is aware of thoughts and experiences.


      I'm not sure what to say, at first I thought: if 'awareness is aware of
      thoughts & experiences', then proposing that we 'notice this' would imply a
      circular definition: awareness which is aware of awareness. And there can be
      only one. (yes I'm overanalyzing)

      But, I think you mean simply 'notice the awareness' which indeed suggests an
      effortless awakening.


      ~ Yes, awareness is what notices awareness.
      It sounds complicated or impossible but is actually simple and effortless.


      It is thought that wonders if "it" can get beyond thought. Thought
      has a limit, beyond which it cannot proceed. What-You-Are is already
      Beyond-Thought. Just a matter of seeing thought for what it is, is
      all. "Identity, body, name, form" -- all thought. The nature of
      thought is that it appears in a moment -- to disappear, like a wave
      dissolving into the crest. Waves follow waves, across a surface of
      ... what you are. This can only be seen right Now.


      You're suggesting that we vigilently observe the birth of a thought (every
      thought) & with equal vigilence observe the life cycle of the thought
      including the space following it....


      Observation is the key. Otherwise one will be found "thinking that
      thoughts are bad." Thoughts arise in this act of writing/reading.
      Just see them come and go. Don't cling or reject.


      ***Roger, Larry and Larry:

      Roger: But there is another perceptual reality where the most
      significant boundary is not the skin, rather this most significant
      boundary is between "I am" (or awareness) and that which is seen in

      Larry: it seems to me it's practically a dichotomy. There's awareness
      ("I am"/nowness) and there's emptiness/stuff. Awareness doesn't seem to
      be aware OF anything. I don't get. How do they fit together, relate with
      one another?

      I think you're on to something here Larry, but you're identifying with
      awareness, maybe subconsciously. It's empty too. Let go of it all.

      your friend, Larry

      ***Jan B. on the Jain theory of karma:

      Quite a time ago an article was posted about the Jain theory of karma;
      contrary to some "dead guys" maintaining nothing can be said about
      enlightenment, other "dead guys" talked about "stages" in relation to
      destroyed karma - not intellectually (like "there is no karma") but factual
      (for instance like being unable to feel fear, guilt, shame etc.).
      An excerpt showing this:
      Jains believe that since the beginning of the time every living being
      (soul) is associated with karmas. The main purpose of religion is to
      remove these karmas which are attached to the soul.

      There are many types of karmas. However they are broadly classified into
      the following eight categories:

      Mohaniya (delusion)
      Jnana-varaniya (knowledge)
      Darasna-varaniya (vision)
      Antaraya (natural qualities)

      Vedniya (pleasure and pain of the body).
      Nama (body)
      Gotra (social standing)
      Ayu (life span)

      While travelling on the path of spiritual progress, a person destroys all
      eight types of his karmas in the following sequence:

      First Mohaniya (delusion), then Jnana-varaniya (knowledge),
      Darasna-varaniya (vision), and Antaraya (natural qualities) all three

      Lastly the remaining four namely Nama (body), Ayu (life span), Gotra
      (social standing), and Vedniya (pleasure and pain of the body).

      After destroying these karmas a person attains liberation. The first four
      karmas are called Ghati karmas because they obscure the natural qualities
      of the soul. The last four karmas are known as Aghati karmas because they
      do not affect the qualities of the soul, but they are related to the body
      of the soul. Once a person destroys all his Ghati karmas, he will
      definitely destroy all of his Aghati karmas before his death. No fall back
      can occur after the destruction of Ghati karmas.

      A person who destroys all eight types of karmas is called Siddha. A person
      who destroys only four Ghati karmas is called Arihanta. Arihant is also
      known as Tirthankara, Jina, Arhat, Kevali, or Nirgantha.


      When a person destroys his four Ghati karmas, he attains keval-jnana. He
      has regained the original attributes of his soul which are perfect
      knowledge, vision, power, and bliss. He is omniscient of the past, present
      and future forms of all entities (living and nonliving beings) of the
      universe. He is still a human being. He remains in the state of blissful
      condition for the rest of his life.

      Arihants have two categories:

      - Tirthankar
      - Ordinary-kevali


      Immediately after attaining keval-jnana, if a person establishes the
      four-fold religious order of monks, nuns, sravaks (male laypeople), and
      sravikas (female laypeople) is known as
      Tirthankar. He preaches the Jain philosophy, religion, ethics, conducts to
      his followers.

      Jainism believe that Twenty-four Tirthankars are born during each
      descending and asending part of the time cycle in this region (Bharat
      Kshetra) of the universe. No two Tirthankaras live at the same time.
      Generally a Tirthankara is born when the religion is at its depression
      state. The new Tirthankar revives the same Jain philosophy and religion.
      He gives a different form to the religion depending upon the time, place,
      and the social behavior of the human society.


      Lord Mahavir preached five great vows, while Lord Parshva preached four
      great vows. The vow of celibacy was included in the non-possession
      category during Lord Parshav's time.

      Tirthankar is also known as Jina or Nirgrantha. Jina means one who has
      conquered his inner passions like desire and hatred. Nirgrantha means one
      who has gotten rid of all attachments


      The only difference between Tirthankara and ordinary-kevali is that the
      latter does not establish the religious order. He remains in the state of
      perfect blissful condition for the rest of his life after attaining

      In the religious scriptures the name Arihantas and Tirthankaras are
      interchangeably used because ordinary-kevalis do not play any active roles
      in the religious order.


      All Tirthankaras and ordinary-kevalis destroy their remaining four Aghati
      karmas, and attain liberation at the end of their present life. After
      their nirvan (death) all of them are known as Siddhas. They are totally
      free. They are free from the birth and death cycle. They do not possess
      body. They do not feel pleasure and pain, or joy and sorrow. They live in
      an ever lasting blissful condition at the top of the universe (Lokakas)
      known as Moksha.
      Not to mention all "dead guys" who were relating common K. side-effects to
      the same "stages", like in the "Alchemical Wedding"...

      Not taking a stance toward any guy, whether "dead" or "alive",


      ***John observes:

      My two puppies...

      Every day I let them out into the same yard at the same time ... and
      every day they act as if they are in a totally unknown environment.

      Every day, the same ole thing - but to them, brand new!

      What am I missing in *my* life?

      Why is the mundane, .... the mundane?

      John :-)

      ***Larry's answer:

      Judi would say you're not missing anything. This is all there is. But
      Judi can be harsh and overbearing. I would say things can be less than
      they seem to be. That's good news because it means you have more room
      for more stuff.


      ***Satsangh with Dutch:

      Last Sunday, the first small talk ;-) took place in Amsterdam.

      There were 6 visitors and we met at 19:00. I will try to give a short
      description of the questions that were asked, but I have noticed that it is
      very difficult to remember exactly which questions were asked and in what
      order. Maybe some of you who have given talks have had the same experience?

      Here are the questions I remember, in random order.
      Q: What happens when realization is there?
      A: Phenomena can differ, and I think most seekers want to know what happens,
      because they are going to try to duplicate this experience. They have read
      in a book that there will be fountains, lightning, explosions, bubbles, etc.
      It can give you the illusion that this is what you should expect as a sign
      of that realization has happened. A Zen monk (I don't remember his name)
      once became enlightened when he amputated his leg by accident at the gate of
      a monastery. Somebody slammed the door, and he losed one of his legs. As he
      was looking at his leg, he realized, that he was not the body. After this,
      some other monks amputed their legs, but no enlightenment :-)
      When you are interested in the side-effects of realization, then that is
      quite different from wanting to know what you are. Selfrealization on
      certain terms (happiness, all day long, feeling good, never being sad, etc)
      is impossible.

      Q: Then why do we always read this in every book, those things, phenomena
      that happen?
      A: I don't know. When a seeker asks this question, then he gets an answer.
      But side-effects and clearness can only be RESULTS of realization. You can't
      strive for those effects. It means that you only want one side of the story.
      "This I like, that I don't"
      And always when you want one side, the other side shows up. Put weight on
      one side of a pair of scales, and the other side will arise. And you keep
      switching from one side to the other. This, or that. Both sides are seen
      totally all the time, by what you are, but you think that's not the case.

      Q: Are there ways to speed up the process? (Some seekers did drugs, silent
      retraits, even watertanks).
      A: No, in fact, it can be very dangerous to try to force it. And there's
      always the danger that you create the illusion of controlling it.

      Q: I did silent retraits and started to develop psychoses. I was in a little
      cabin for a week. Should I do this again?
      A: I would advise not to. What's the hurry? Don't try to force it and just
      let it happen in it's own natural tempo. And know, that it's not 'you',
      who's letting it happen :-)

      Q: Thinking is running in circles here. Will that ever stop?
      A: The fact that you can see those circles proves, that You are not 'in' the
      circle. Have never been, will never be. So no need to 'get' out! When 2you
      think you are 'in' such a circle you give fuel to it. When you know you are
      already out, because you can see the circle, you loose interest in it. This
      does not mean you are turning into a zombie, is just means you know what is
      happening. And when you think there is 'someone' who knows what is
      happening, well, 'he' or 'she' is part of the circle too!

      Q: Ok, I can see this, but the search hasn't stopped!
      A: That's just a little trick the 'ego' plays. It needs the search, because
      when you are not searching it will disappear. The 'ego' can only 'survive'
      by means of this searching motion. Where is this ego without search-engine?
      It will tell you to keep on searching, but it's like rowing towards the

      Of course there were more questions, but I'll keep it short for now :-)


      ***Petros offers a quote:

      (from _The Alchemy of Transformation_ by Lee Lozowick.)

      "It is impossible to know or experience real devotion unless you are already
      consumed by the realization of nonduality -- the realization of
      enlightenment. Any devotion felt or expressed outside of a tacit presumption
      that the Divine is all there is may be completely sincere, and pure in its
      motivation; it may be positive and free of violence and negativity; and yet,
      it is not true devotion -- no matter what it looks like, no matter how it

      "Once one stands upon the foundation of realizing one's already present
      enlightenment (since there never is really any separation from God, there is
      never is any unenlightenment either), only then is one available to the
      possibility of devotion. If one is responsible with integrity for what the
      realization of enlightenment means, the body will grow spontaneously and
      naturally into a space in which devotion will arise all by itself --
      uncalled for and usually quite unexpected."


      Dan: William Blake called God, "Nobodaddy."
      Has a nice ring to it :-)