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Re: Outside Brace Box Cars?

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  • Jim Vail
    I built a model of a NCNG outside braced car based on those 2 photos. I checked with Herman first and he felt it was the 32 that later had outside sheathing
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 24, 2010
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      I built a model of a NCNG outside braced car based on those 2 photos. I
      checked with Herman first and he felt it was the 32 that later had
      outside sheathing added to it - perhaps in a rebuilding. So I lettered
      mine 32. I did an article with a drawing in the Gazette, but now feel
      my model (and my drawing) is about 6 scale inches too tall.

      Jim Vail

      dennisivison wrote:
      >
      >
      > I'm hoping someone can help me with a couple of pictures. They are
      > both in Gerald Best's book Nevada County Narrow Gauge;
      >
      > the bottom photo on page 26 "...a view of Colfax in 1889", and
      >
      > the upper photo on page 61 "...on the Bear River bridge...in 1896".
      >
      > Both of these photos clearly show single sheath (outside braced) box
      > cars, can anyone shed any light on these cars? They appear to be a
      > little larger than their neighboring cars, so I'm assuming they must
      > be Grass Valley built cars in the number range 34-42 and not the
      > Carter Brother cars.
      >
      > I have Herman Darr's Drawings of the Carter Brothers cars (2007
      > Modelers Annual pg.41). I have a photo of #32 (2007 Modelers Annual
      > pg.40, Larry Harrison & Al Phelps photos), so that one is out. I have
      > a photo of #44 (2007 Modelers Annual pg.42, Larry Harrison photo) and
      > that one was built in 1901 anyway, so that leaves us with Numbers
      > 34-36-38-40-42 as possibilities.
      >
      > I'm building the NCNGRR in O-scale, set in late summer 1912, and would
      > like to add these car/cars to my roster. I would greatly appreciate
      > any help anyone could offer.
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Dennis Ivison
      > Garden Grove, CA
      >
      >
    • dennisivison
      Jim, Thank you, I ll follow Herman s and your lead. Do you happen to remember which Gazette your article appeared in, I have all the issues for the last 2-3
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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        Jim,

        Thank you, I'll follow Herman's and your lead. Do you happen to remember which Gazette your article appeared in, I have all the issues for the last 2-3 years, if it's earlier than that I'll have to hunt it down.

        Dennis



        --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Jim Vail <akacoot@...> wrote:
        >
        > I built a model of a NCNG outside braced car based on those 2 photos. I
        > checked with Herman first and he felt it was the 32 that later had
        > outside sheathing added to it - perhaps in a rebuilding. So I lettered
        > mine 32. I did an article with a drawing in the Gazette, but now feel
        > my model (and my drawing) is about 6 scale inches too tall.
        >
        > Jim Vail
        >
        > dennisivison wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > I'm hoping someone can help me with a couple of pictures. They are
        > > both in Gerald Best's book Nevada County Narrow Gauge;
        > >
        > > the bottom photo on page 26 "...a view of Colfax in 1889", and
        > >
        > > the upper photo on page 61 "...on the Bear River bridge...in 1896".
        > >
        > > Both of these photos clearly show single sheath (outside braced) box
        > > cars, can anyone shed any light on these cars? They appear to be a
        > > little larger than their neighboring cars, so I'm assuming they must
        > > be Grass Valley built cars in the number range 34-42 and not the
        > > Carter Brother cars.
        > >
        > > I have Herman Darr's Drawings of the Carter Brothers cars (2007
        > > Modelers Annual pg.41). I have a photo of #32 (2007 Modelers Annual
        > > pg.40, Larry Harrison & Al Phelps photos), so that one is out. I have
        > > a photo of #44 (2007 Modelers Annual pg.42, Larry Harrison photo) and
        > > that one was built in 1901 anyway, so that leaves us with Numbers
        > > 34-36-38-40-42 as possibilities.
        > >
        > > I'm building the NCNGRR in O-scale, set in late summer 1912, and would
        > > like to add these car/cars to my roster. I would greatly appreciate
        > > any help anyone could offer.
        > >
        > > Thank you,
        > > Dennis Ivison
        > > Garden Grove, CA
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Greg Maxwell
        Dennis and Jim, Some years ago I was loaned a very sharp 5x7 negative of the Bear River bridge view from Guy Dunscomb. From that I blew up the just the portion
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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          Dennis and Jim,

          Some years ago I was loaned a very sharp 5x7 negative of the Bear River bridge view from Guy Dunscomb. From that I blew up the just the portion of the photo containing the train. I would like to make a few observations based on this enlargment. First the picture is misdated in both the Best book (1896) and Birth Of Cal Narrow Gauge (1890). An engraving of this photo appeared in the Grass Valley Union in early January of 1887 so judging by the bare trees and low water level in the river the picture was taken late fall 1886. As for the car in question I would say that it is some sort of car for hauling hay. It is not really put together like a box car. The ends of the car look to be square with the eaves open. Sitting on top of the end walls are two long square beams (maybe 4x4) running long ways supporting the roof ridge. The car has no roof walk and I can't see any ladders but the car does have a roof mounted brake wheel. The platform portion of the car looks like a copy of a Carter flat car with the end beams sitting in notches in the side sills. It probably was not put together from one of the original Carter flats as the trucks are markedly different than those under the flat cars behind it.

          Just my two cents,
          Greg Maxwell


          --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, "dennisivison" <dennisivison@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm hoping someone can help me with a couple of pictures. They are both in Gerald Best's book Nevada County Narrow Gauge;
          >
          > the bottom photo on page 26 "...a view of Colfax in 1889", and
          >
          > the upper photo on page 61 "...on the Bear River bridge...in 1896".
          >
          > Both of these photos clearly show single sheath (outside braced) box cars, can anyone shed any light on these cars? They appear to be a little larger than their neighboring cars, so I'm assuming they must be Grass Valley built cars in the number range 34-42 and not the Carter Brother cars.
          >
          > I have Herman Darr's Drawings of the Carter Brothers cars (2007 Modelers Annual pg.41). I have a photo of #32 (2007 Modelers Annual pg.40, Larry Harrison & Al Phelps photos), so that one is out. I have a photo of #44 (2007 Modelers Annual pg.42, Larry Harrison photo) and that one was built in 1901 anyway, so that leaves us with Numbers 34-36-38-40-42 as possibilities.
          >
          > I'm building the NCNGRR in O-scale, set in late summer 1912, and would like to add these car/cars to my roster. I would greatly appreciate any help anyone could offer.
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Dennis Ivison
          > Garden Grove, CA
          >
        • Andrew Brandon
          The car you re referring to is Boxcar 32, it was one of a kind. From what I recall, the car was built with outside bracing originally but later received
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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            The car you're referring to is Boxcar 32, it was one of a kind. From what I recall, the car was built with outside bracing originally but later received sheething like the rest of the boxcar fleet. The how when and why I do not have in front of me. In any case it is one of the first, if not the first, boxcar built by the Grass Valley shops and according to Herman should be 26' long. There was an article by Jim Vail wherein he built a model of this car which contained a little information about it.


            Vail, Jim, “Two HOn3 Nevada County Narrow Gauge Boxcars,”Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, November/December 1999, 76-79. A sctratchbuilding article on constructing a 26' outside framed NCNG box car in HOn3. Includes a drawing of car #32 as an outside framed car and a reprint of Herman Darr’s drawing of the 1930’s version of the NCNG’s 26' box cars (NCNG-6, 1982 version).

            -=Andrew Brandon=-
            http://www.pacificng.com


          • Andrew Brandon
            Excuse my double post, I hadn t seen Jim s response! -=Andrew Brandon=- http://www.pacificng.com
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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              Excuse my double post, I hadn't seen Jim's response!

              -=Andrew Brandon=-
              http://www.pacificng.com
            • dennisivison
              Andrew, Thank you, my Gazettes only go back to 2003, but Montage has that back-issue, so one is now on its way. On another note, I modelled in N-scale (Espee)
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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                Andrew,

                Thank you, my Gazettes only go back to 2003, but Montage has that back-issue, so one is now on its way.

                On another note, I modelled in N-scale (Espee) for 35 years before my switch to O-scale NG 2 years ago, and have learned that MR is a lot more fun with friends. I've hosted a monthly operating session for about 15 years, and several Open Houses. So, if any of you are ever going to be in my neighborhood drop me an e-mail and you're welcome to come over and run trains. I live about 10 minutes from Disneyland.

                Dennis



                --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Brandon <andrew.brandon@...> wrote:
                >
                > The car you're referring to is Boxcar 32, it was one of a kind. From what I
                > recall, the car was built with outside bracing originally but later received
                > sheething like the rest of the boxcar fleet. The how when and why I do not
                > have in front of me. In any case it is one of the first, if not the first,
                > boxcar built by the Grass Valley shops and according to Herman should be 26'
                > long. There was an article by Jim Vail wherein he built a model of this car
                > which contained a little information about it.
                >
                >
                > Vail, Jim, "Two HOn3 Nevada County Narrow Gauge Boxcars," Narrow Gauge and
                > Short Line Gazette, November/December 1999, 76-79. A sctratchbuilding
                > article on constructing a 26' outside framed NCNG box car in HOn3. Includes
                > a drawing of car #32 as an outside framed car and a reprint of Herman Darr's
                > drawing of the 1930's version of the NCNG's 26' box cars (NCNG-6, 1982
                > version).
                >
                > -=Andrew Brandon=-
                > http://www.pacificng.com
                >
              • Jim Vail
                Dennis - I guess you got all the info from Brandon - however, I think my drawing of NCNG car #32 is about 6 scale inches too high. Compare with Herman s
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 25, 2010
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                  Dennis -

                  I guess you got all the info from Brandon - however, I think my drawing
                  of NCNG car #32 is about 6 scale inches too high. Compare with Herman's
                  drawing.

                  Jim Vail

                  dennisivison wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jim,
                  >
                  > Thank you, I'll follow Herman's and your lead. Do you happen to
                  > remember which Gazette your article appeared in, I have all the issues
                  > for the last 2-3 years, if it's earlier than that I'll have to hunt it
                  > down.
                  >
                  > Dennis
                  >
                • Greg Maxwell
                  I have uploaded two new photos to the Group Photos file. The new file is labeled OB Box car 32? . The first photo is the enlargement of the outside brace car
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 26, 2010
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                    I have uploaded two new photos to the Group Photos file. The new file is labeled " OB Box car 32?". The first photo is the enlargement of the outside brace car from the Bear River bridge view. Take a look at the platform portion of the car. Note the location of the body-bolster truss rod washers, mounted on the side sills as they would be on a Carter / NCNG 8 ton flat car. Also note the frame construction in regards to the end beams, how they sit in notches at the ends of the side sills. This is also characteristic of a Carter / NCNG flat car. Box car #32 would have been the first box car built following the 15 Carter kits. According to Bruce MacGregor in his "The Birth of California Narrow Gauge" Box car #32 was most likely built with Carter kit material. It would not be too crazy of an assumption to say that #32 would have been a copy of one of the first 15 kits. If you compare the car in the photo to the Carter 8 ton box car plan on pages 186-7 of "The Birth of California Narrow Gauge" you will see that the Carter 8 ton box car has only eight upright posts and the car in the photo has ten. You will also notice that the end of the car is constructed very differently than the car in the plan.
                    The second photo uploaded is a broadside view of #32. The body bolsters extend below the side sills as they should on a Carter / NCNG 8 ton box car with the bolster truss rod washer mounted to the lower end of the bolster. My guess would be that the outside brace car in the two early photos is not box car #32 but actually an 8 ton flat car with a box superstructure mounted on top. Judging from the difference in the trucks with the adjacent 8 ton flat cars this is probably one of the NCNG built flats (odd #31-49).
                    Best regards,
                    Greg Maxwell


                    --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Brandon <andrew.brandon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The car you're referring to is Boxcar 32, it was one of a kind. From what I
                    > recall, the car was built with outside bracing originally but later received
                    > sheething like the rest of the boxcar fleet. The how when and why I do not
                    > have in front of me. In any case it is one of the first, if not the first,
                    > boxcar built by the Grass Valley shops and according to Herman should be 26'
                    > long. There was an article by Jim Vail wherein he built a model of this car
                    > which contained a little information about it.
                    >
                    >
                    > Vail, Jim, "Two HOn3 Nevada County Narrow Gauge Boxcars," Narrow Gauge and
                    > Short Line Gazette, November/December 1999, 76-79. A sctratchbuilding
                    > article on constructing a 26' outside framed NCNG box car in HOn3. Includes
                    > a drawing of car #32 as an outside framed car and a reprint of Herman Darr's
                    > drawing of the 1930's version of the NCNG's 26' box cars (NCNG-6, 1982
                    > version).
                    >
                    > -=Andrew Brandon=-
                    > http://www.pacificng.com
                    >
                  • dennisivison
                    Greg thank you for the photos, Jim I ll take your advise and trim the height. I just received a notice from Montage that the Gazette issue is enroute. I m
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 26, 2010
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                      Greg thank you for the photos, Jim I'll take your advise and trim the height. I just received a notice from Montage that the Gazette issue is enroute.

                      I'm relativly new to the fan base of the NCNG, having just discovered the RR about 3 years ago, so I really appreciate all of your help. I've posted several questions to this group and have always received very helpful information. Being a fan of prototype vs. freelance railroading, your help is invaluable.

                      Dennis


                      --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Maxwell" <EANDPNG@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have uploaded two new photos to the Group Photos file. The new file is labeled " OB Box car 32?". The first photo is the enlargement of the outside brace car from the Bear River bridge view. Take a look at the platform portion of the car. Note the location of the body-bolster truss rod washers, mounted on the side sills as they would be on a Carter / NCNG 8 ton flat car. Also note the frame construction in regards to the end beams, how they sit in notches at the ends of the side sills. This is also characteristic of a Carter / NCNG flat car. Box car #32 would have been the first box car built following the 15 Carter kits. According to Bruce MacGregor in his "The Birth of California Narrow Gauge" Box car #32 was most likely built with Carter kit material. It would not be too crazy of an assumption to say that #32 would have been a copy of one of the first 15 kits. If you compare the car in the photo to the Carter 8 ton box car plan on pages 186-7 of "The Birth of California Narrow Gauge" you will see that the Carter 8 ton box car has only eight upright posts and the car in the photo has ten. You will also notice that the end of the car is constructed very differently than the car in the plan.
                      > The second photo uploaded is a broadside view of #32. The body bolsters extend below the side sills as they should on a Carter / NCNG 8 ton box car with the bolster truss rod washer mounted to the lower end of the bolster. My guess would be that the outside brace car in the two early photos is not box car #32 but actually an 8 ton flat car with a box superstructure mounted on top. Judging from the difference in the trucks with the adjacent 8 ton flat cars this is probably one of the NCNG built flats (odd #31-49).
                      > Best regards,
                      > Greg Maxwell
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Brandon <andrew.brandon@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The car you're referring to is Boxcar 32, it was one of a kind. From what I
                      > > recall, the car was built with outside bracing originally but later received
                      > > sheething like the rest of the boxcar fleet. The how when and why I do not
                      > > have in front of me. In any case it is one of the first, if not the first,
                      > > boxcar built by the Grass Valley shops and according to Herman should be 26'
                      > > long. There was an article by Jim Vail wherein he built a model of this car
                      > > which contained a little information about it.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Vail, Jim, "Two HOn3 Nevada County Narrow Gauge Boxcars," Narrow Gauge and
                      > > Short Line Gazette, November/December 1999, 76-79. A sctratchbuilding
                      > > article on constructing a 26' outside framed NCNG box car in HOn3. Includes
                      > > a drawing of car #32 as an outside framed car and a reprint of Herman Darr's
                      > > drawing of the 1930's version of the NCNG's 26' box cars (NCNG-6, 1982
                      > > version).
                      > >
                      > > -=Andrew Brandon=-
                      > > http://www.pacificng.com
                      > >
                      >
                    • Andrew Brandon
                      Greg, It is suspected that the boxcar started life as simply that, an experimental boxcar. The NCNG begin constructing freight cars far earlier than
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 26, 2010
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                        Greg,

                        It is suspected that the boxcar started life as simply that, an experimental boxcar. The NCNG begin constructing freight cars far earlier than traditionally understood. I did a quick check through state reports to the railroad commissioner and found the following freight car totals.

                        1876 - 15 8 wheel platform (flat) cars, 15 boxcars
                        1877 - 20 8 wheel platform cars, 15 boxcars
                        1880 - 20 8 wheel platform cars, 18 boxcars

                        One of the reasons the car looks like a flatcar with a body is likely because such a process was not uncommon, this would make the car a boxcar regardless of being a flatcar with a box frame. As we can see from the car totals, the need arose for more flats, however the total doesn't change. Is it possible that the shops were building flats and converted one to a rudamentary boxcar? Indeed. It is important to note that between the end of 1877 and the end of 1880 the shops built 3 boxcars. Since these cars are NCNG knock-offs of Carter designs they're 26' long rather than 24' foot. There is debate of course as to the flats being 25' 4" initially, or if the 5 cars built between 76 - 77 were of this length. So lets assume boxcar 32 is constructed from some sort of flatcar frame, the frame design would match the other flat cars the NCNG had been constructing, which we can assume were 25' 4". By taking this basic frame layout with a home brewed body on the car, then applying siding, you get a car that is roughly 26'. It is a documented fact that car 32 was 26' long by the end of its life. There are differences between what you're seeing in that photo and the Carter cars themselves. The frame on that boxcar is wider that the flats following it, there is also a lack of stake pockets on the car, or indications of there being stake pockets. This would indicate the car was constructed for this purpose, if it is 32, we're looking at the foundation of the cars the GV shops would continue to build for many years following. A common flaw with boxcars of similar design is the exposed bracing and simple wall design. The V&T had issues with their outside braced cars and later rebuilt them with exterior siding. The NCNG would have endured the same experiences leading them to convert any boxcars of this design to a more traditional design, this of course would be the 26' GV shop built cars we all know and love.

                        For the record, the extent of the "Kit" form for the first cars is under debate. I have documentation that one of the Carters WAS in Colfax and Grass Valley and was in charge of several pieces of equipment. Among those is the Grass Valley turntable. In coming months after I sort out my notes and research, I will be re-writing the earliest history of the NCNG. I had been keeping a lot of this under my hat until I was ready to announce it, stay tuned.


                        -=Andrew Brandon=-
                        http://www.pacificng.com

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