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RE: <NevadaCoNG> Digest Number 282

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  • Ralph Jaggi
    HI. Ralph Jaggi Here Any. chance Of me getting A tour. Of The NCngrr Main line route I Will pay for gas And donate to The mueisum If you could Forward this To
    Message 1 of 1 , Apr 17, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      HI. Ralph Jaggi
      Here
      Any. chance
      Of me getting
      A tour. Of
      The NCngrr
      Main line route
      I Will pay for gas
      And donate to
      The mueisum
      If you could
      Forward this
      To the GReater
      Group I thank you
      My phone is 530 2749588

      NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com wrote:
      > Discussion of the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad and the Nevada County Traction Co in California's Gold Rush country
      > Discussion of the Nevada County Narrow Gauge Railroad and the Nevada County Traction Co in California's Gold Rush country
      > Messages In This Digest (4
      > Messages)
      > 1a.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > From:
      > Andrew Brandon
      > 1b.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > From:
      > Loren Miller
      > 1c.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > From:
      > Dennis Ivison
      > 1d.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > From:
      > Doug MacLeod
      > View All Topics | Create New Topic
      > Messages
      > 1a.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > Posted by: "Andrew Brandon"
      > andrew.brandon@...
      >  
      > mrmustard11
      > Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:10 am (PDT)
      > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river rock.
      > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
      > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
      > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
      > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but excellent
      > for drainage.
      > You can see an example of this ballast here:
      > http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ pb/images/ img18676447aa39e 8140b.jpg
      > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea, you're
      > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
      > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
      > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's book
      > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W. that
      > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
      > -=Andrew=-
      > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller < rioting@hotmail. com > wrote:
      >>
      >> Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a welder, but in this business in this area for small companies, everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology, drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16 to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however, sometimes we would have to drift through
      bedrock, which in our case was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast. Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
      because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun. Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed. Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake, and the history of the SP, my
      great grandfather used to engineer the cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks ca.gov/?page_ id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far, the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S. http://www.origsix com/ and then there is this site if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ index.html? 0.21722400245887 14
      >>
      >> To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      >> From: dennisivison@ sbcglobal. net
      >> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
      >> Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Loren,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
      >>
      >> firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
      >>
      >> places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of being a
      >>
      >> mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites that we
      >>
      >> visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings. We saw
      >>
      >> all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very dark brown
      >>
      >> quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
      >>
      >> thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
      >>
      >> historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what little
      >>
      >> history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in Arizona a
      >>
      >> large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining & smelting. I
      >>
      >> have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that lives
      >>
      >> down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a package
      >>
      >> show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings; he had
      >>
      >> sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me where
      >>
      >> he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of tailings
      >>
      >> and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour sifter.
      >>
      >> For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I still
      >>
      >> have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that anyone send
      >>
      >> me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great. If all
      >>
      >> else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense. But, you
      >>
      >> all know what'll happen…..as soon as the last section of ballast
      >>
      >> dries someone will post a picture…and I'll have guessed wrong.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Thanks again,
      >>
      >> Dennis
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@... > wrote:
      >>
      >> >
      >>
      >> >
      >>
      >> > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the gold mines
      >>
      >> of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in basalt
      >>
      >> and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a mottled
      >>
      >> green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the actual
      >>
      >> ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
      >>
      >> mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have seen
      >>
      >> nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in Northern
      >>
      >> California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and stays
      >>
      >> put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads here
      >>
      >> for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it for
      >>
      >> that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I hope
      >>
      >> that helps some. Other people here may have better info and more
      >>
      >> accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
      >>
      >> tracks, pictures, etc.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      >> More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
      >> http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >>
      >> Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      > --
      > -=Andrew Brandon=-
      > Back to top
      > Reply to sender
      > |
      > Reply to group
      > |
      > Reply via web post
      > Messages in this topic
      > (8)
      > 1b.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > Posted by: "Loren Miller"
      > rioting@...
      >  
      > rioting1
      > Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:25 am (PDT)
      > AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
      >> To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      >> From: andrew.brandon@ gmail.com
      >> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
      >> Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >>
      >> The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river rock.
      >> If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
      >> seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
      >> standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
      >> uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but excellent
      >> for drainage.
      >>
      >> You can see an example of this ballast here:
      >> http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ pb/images/ img18676447aa39e 8140b.jpg
      >> It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea, you're
      >> looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
      >> Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
      >> ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's book
      >> shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W. that
      >> show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
      >>
      >> -=Andrew=-
      >>
      >>
      >> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller < rioting@hotmail. com > wrote:
      >> >
      >> > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a welder, but in this business in this area for small companies, everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology, drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16 to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however, sometimes we would have to drift through
      bedrock, which in our case was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast. Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
      because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun. Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed. Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake, and the history of the SP, my
      great grandfather used to engineer the cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks ca.gov/?page_ id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far, the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S. http://www.origsix com/ and then there is this site if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ index.html? 0.21722400245887 14
      >> >
      >> > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      >> > From: dennisivison@ sbcglobal. net
      >> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
      >> > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Loren,
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
      >> >
      >> > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
      >> >
      >> > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of being a
      >> >
      >> > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites that we
      >> >
      >> > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings. We saw
      >> >
      >> > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very dark brown
      >> >
      >> > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
      >> >
      >> > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
      >> >
      >> > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what little
      >> >
      >> > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in Arizona a
      >> >
      >> > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining & smelting. I
      >> >
      >> > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that lives
      >> >
      >> > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a package
      >> >
      >> > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings; he had
      >> >
      >> > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me where
      >> >
      >> > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of tailings
      >> >
      >> > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour sifter.
      >> >
      >> > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I still
      >> >
      >> > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that anyone send
      >> >
      >> > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great. If all
      >> >
      >> > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense. But, you
      >> >
      >> > all know what'll happen…..as soon as the last section of ballast
      >> >
      >> > dries someone will post a picture…and I'll have guessed wrong.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Thanks again,
      >> >
      >> > Dennis
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@... > wrote:
      >> >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the gold mines
      >> >
      >> > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in basalt
      >> >
      >> > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a mottled
      >> >
      >> > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the actual
      >> >
      >> > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
      >> >
      >> > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have seen
      >> >
      >> > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in Northern
      >> >
      >> > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and stays
      >> >
      >> > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads here
      >> >
      >> > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it for
      >> >
      >> > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I hope
      >> >
      >> > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and more
      >> >
      >> > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
      >> >
      >> > tracks, pictures, etc.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      >> > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
      >> > http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >> >
      >> > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> --
      >> -=Andrew Brandon=-
      >>
      >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >>
      >> Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
      > http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > Back to top
      > Reply to sender
      > |
      > Reply to group
      > |
      > Reply via web post
      > Messages in this topic
      > (8)
      > 1c.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > Posted by: "Dennis Ivison"
      > dennisivison@...
      >  
      > dennisivison
      > Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:23 pm (PDT)
      > Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was referred
      > to as "The Golden Road" because of the gold still in the ballast.
      > I've been re-reading all my resources to try to find that reference.
      > I definitely have enough information now to feel confident in my
      > selection, and I really want to thank both Loren and Andrew for
      > taking the time to help me out. Getting the proper ballast color may
      > sound inconsequential, but I would like to get it right. When I get
      > the new pike up and running I'll be back to monthly operations
      > sessions, as well as hosting regular layout tours, and I'd like to do
      > my adopted railroad justice.
      > Thanks again,
      > Dennis
      > --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@... > wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >> AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with
      > actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical
      > content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
      >>
      >> > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      >> > From: andrew.brandon@ ...
      >> > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
      >> > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >> >
      >> > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river
      > rock.
      >> > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
      >> > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
      >> > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
      >> > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but
      > excellent
      >> > for drainage.
      >> >
      >> > You can see an example of this ballast here:
      >> > http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ pb/images/ img18676447aa39e 8140b.jpg
      >> > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea,
      > you're
      >> > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
      >> > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
      >> > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's
      > book
      >> > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W.
      > that
      >> > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
      >> >
      >> > -=Andrew=-
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@... >
      > wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a
      > welder, but in this business in this area for small companies,
      > everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology,
      > drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16
      > to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest
      > continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket
      > mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine
      > tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well
      > as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be
      > either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the
      > surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is
      > exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the
      > quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we
      > would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however,
      > sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case
      > was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the
      > Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew
      > tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could
      > walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is
      > a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is
      > horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In
      > any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings
      > that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed
      > over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money
      > would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine
      > portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings
      > that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark
      > gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast.
      > Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
      > because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes
      > drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to
      > the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under
      > the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp
      > edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in
      > this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The
      > closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a
      > welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would
      > love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so
      > this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun.
      > Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area
      > and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably
      > find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed.
      > Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake,
      > and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the
      > cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in
      > the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the
      > area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks ca.gov/?
      > page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far,
      > the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S.
      > http://www.origsix com/ and then there is this site if you haven't
      > seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ index.html? 0.21722400245887 14
      >> > >
      >> > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      >> > > From: dennisivison@ ...
      >> > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
      >> > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Loren,
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
      >> > >
      >> > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
      >> > >
      >> > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of
      > being a
      >> > >
      >> > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites
      > that we
      >> > >
      >> > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings.
      > We saw
      >> > >
      >> > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very
      > dark brown
      >> > >
      >> > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
      >> > >
      >> > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
      >> > >
      >> > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what
      > little
      >> > >
      >> > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in
      > Arizona a
      >> > >
      >> > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining &
      > smelting. I
      >> > >
      >> > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that
      > lives
      >> > >
      >> > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a
      > package
      >> > >
      >> > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings;
      > he had
      >> > >
      >> > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me
      > where
      >> > >
      >> > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of
      > tailings
      >> > >
      >> > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour
      > sifter.
      >> > >
      >> > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I
      > still
      >> > >
      >> > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that
      > anyone send
      >> > >
      >> > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great.
      > If all
      >> > >
      >> > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense.
      > But, you
      >> > >
      >> > > all know what'll happen…..as soon as the last section of
      > ballast
      >> > >
      >> > > dries someone will post a picture…and I'll have guessed wrong.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > Thanks again,
      >> > >
      >> > > Dennis
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
      >> > >
      >> > > >
      >> > >
      >> > > >
      >> > >
      >> > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the
      > gold mines
      >> > >
      >> > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in
      > basalt
      >> > >
      >> > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a
      > mottled
      >> > >
      >> > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the
      > actual
      >> > >
      >> > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
      >> > >
      >> > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have
      > seen
      >> > >
      >> > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in
      > Northern
      >> > >
      >> > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and
      > stays
      >> > >
      >> > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads
      > here
      >> > >
      >> > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it
      > for
      >> > >
      >> > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I
      > hope
      >> > >
      >> > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and
      > more
      >> > >
      >> > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
      >> > >
      >> > > tracks, pictures, etc.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      >> > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
      > Live Messenger.
      >> > > http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?
      > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      >> > >
      >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >> > >
      >> > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
      > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > --
      >> > -=Andrew Brandon=-
      >> >
      >> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      >> >
      >> > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
      > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      >> More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live
      > Messenger.
      >> http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?
      > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
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      > Messages in this topic
      > (8)
      > 1d.
      > Re: An Introduction, and a Question
      > Posted by: "Doug MacLeod"
      > dmacleod@...
      >  
      > carterbros1880
      > Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:37 pm (PDT)
      > Dennis:
      > Chapter 4, page 38, first paragraph, in Jerry Best's Nevada County Narrow Gauge book.
      > Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Dennis Ivison
      > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:23 PM
      > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      > Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was referred
      > to as "The Golden Road" because of the gold still in the ballast.
      > I've been re-reading all my resources to try to find that reference.
      > I definitely have enough information now to feel confident in my
      > selection, and I really want to thank both Loren and Andrew for
      > taking the time to help me out. Getting the proper ballast color may
      > sound inconsequential, but I would like to get it right. When I get
      > the new pike up and running I'll be back to monthly operations
      > sessions, as well as hosting regular layout tours, and I'd like to do
      > my adopted railroad justice.
      > Thanks again,
      > Dennis
      > --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@... > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with
      > actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical
      > content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
      > >
      > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      > > > From: andrew.brandon@ ...
      > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
      > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      > > >
      > > > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river
      > rock.
      > > > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
      > > > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
      > > > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
      > > > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but
      > excellent
      > > > for drainage.
      > > >
      > > > You can see an example of this ballast here:
      > > > http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ pb/images/ img18676447aa39e 8140b.jpg
      > > > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea,
      > you're
      > > > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
      > > > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
      > > > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's
      > book
      > > > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W.
      > that
      > > > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
      > > >
      > > > -=Andrew=-
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@... >
      > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a
      > welder, but in this business in this area for small companies,
      > everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology,
      > drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16
      > to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest
      > continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket
      > mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine
      > tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well
      > as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be
      > either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the
      > surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is
      > exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the
      > quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we
      > would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however,
      > sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case
      > was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the
      > Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew
      > tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could
      > walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is
      > a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is
      > horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In
      > any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings
      > that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed
      > over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money
      > would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine
      > portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings
      > that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark
      > gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast.
      > Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
      > because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes
      > drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to
      > the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under
      > the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp
      > edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in
      > this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The
      > closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a
      > welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would
      > love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so
      > this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun.
      > Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area
      > and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably
      > find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed.
      > Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake,
      > and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the
      > cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in
      > the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the
      > area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks ca.gov/?
      > page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far,
      > the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S.
      > http://www.origsix com/ and then there is this site if you haven't
      > seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmu seum.org/ index.html? 0.21722400245887 14
      > > > >
      > > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com
      > > > > From: dennisivison@ ...
      > > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
      > > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Loren,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
      > > > >
      > > > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
      > > > >
      > > > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of
      > being a
      > > > >
      > > > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites
      > that we
      > > > >
      > > > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings.
      > We saw
      > > > >
      > > > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very
      > dark brown
      > > > >
      > > > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
      > > > >
      > > > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
      > > > >
      > > > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what
      > little
      > > > >
      > > > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in
      > Arizona a
      > > > >
      > > > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining &
      > smelting. I
      > > > >
      > > > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that
      > lives
      > > > >
      > > > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a
      > package
      > > > >
      > > > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings;
      > he had
      > > > >
      > > > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me
      > where
      > > > >
      > > > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of
      > tailings
      > > > >
      > > > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour
      > sifter.
      > > > >
      > > > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I
      > still
      > > > >
      > > > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that
      > anyone send
      > > > >
      > > > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great.
      > If all
      > > > >
      > > > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense.
      > But, you
      > > > >
      > > > > all know what'll happen...as soon as the last section of
      > ballast
      > > > >
      > > > > dries someone will post a picture.and I'll have guessed wrong.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks again,
      > > > >
      > > > > Dennis
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups. com , Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the
      > gold mines
      > > > >
      > > > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in
      > basalt
      > > > >
      > > > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a
      > mottled
      > > > >
      > > > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the
      > actual
      > > > >
      > > > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
      > > > >
      > > > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have
      > seen
      > > > >
      > > > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in
      > Northern
      > > > >
      > > > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and
      > stays
      > > > >
      > > > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads
      > here
      > > > >
      > > > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it
      > for
      > > > >
      > > > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I
      > hope
      > > > >
      > > > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and
      > more
      > > > >
      > > > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
      > > > >
      > > > > tracks, pictures, etc.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > > > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
      > Live Messenger.
      > > > > http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?
      > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > > > >
      > > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
      > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > -=Andrew Brandon=-
      > > >
      > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > > >
      > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
      > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live
      > Messenger.
      > > http://www.windowsl ive.com/messenge r/overview. html?
      > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_ WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_ 042008
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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