Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: An Introduction, and a Question

Expand Messages
  • Andrew Brandon
    The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river rock. If you look closely in NCNG photos you ll notice that the ballast seems to be very
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 16, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river rock.
      If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
      seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
      standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
      uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but excellent
      for drainage.

      You can see an example of this ballast here:
      http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/pb/images/img18676447aa39e8140b.jpg
      It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea, you're
      looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
      Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
      ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's book
      shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W. that
      show the ballasting and upload them to the group.

      -=Andrew=-


      On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a welder, but in this business in this area for small companies, everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology, drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16 to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however, sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast. Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun. Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed. Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake, and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far, the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S. http://www.origsix.com/ and then there is this site if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/index.html?0.2172240024588714
      >
      > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
      > From: dennisivison@...
      > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
      > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Loren,
      >
      >
      >
      > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
      >
      > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
      >
      > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of being a
      >
      > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
      >
      >
      >
      > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites that we
      >
      > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings. We saw
      >
      > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very dark brown
      >
      > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
      >
      > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
      >
      > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what little
      >
      > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in Arizona a
      >
      > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining & smelting. I
      >
      > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that lives
      >
      > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a package
      >
      > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings; he had
      >
      > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me where
      >
      > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of tailings
      >
      > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour sifter.
      >
      > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I still
      >
      > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that anyone send
      >
      > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great. If all
      >
      > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense. But, you
      >
      > all know what'll happen…..as soon as the last section of ballast
      >
      > dries someone will post a picture…and I'll have guessed wrong.
      >
      >
      >
      > Thanks again,
      >
      > Dennis
      >
      >
      >
      > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the gold mines
      >
      > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in basalt
      >
      > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a mottled
      >
      > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the actual
      >
      > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
      >
      > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have seen
      >
      > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in Northern
      >
      > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and stays
      >
      > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads here
      >
      > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it for
      >
      > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I hope
      >
      > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and more
      >
      > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
      >
      > tracks, pictures, etc.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
      > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >



      --
      -=Andrew Brandon=-
    • Loren Miller
      AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical content. Thanks for
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 16, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.

        > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
        > From: andrew.brandon@...
        > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
        > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
        >
        > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river rock.
        > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
        > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
        > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
        > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but excellent
        > for drainage.
        >
        > You can see an example of this ballast here:
        > http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/pb/images/img18676447aa39e8140b.jpg
        > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea, you're
        > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
        > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
        > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's book
        > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W. that
        > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
        >
        > -=Andrew=-
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a welder, but in this business in this area for small companies, everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology, drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16 to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however, sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast. Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun. Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed. Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake, and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far, the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S. http://www.origsix.com/ and then there is this site if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/index.html?0.2172240024588714
        > >
        > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
        > > From: dennisivison@...
        > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
        > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Loren,
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
        > >
        > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
        > >
        > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of being a
        > >
        > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites that we
        > >
        > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings. We saw
        > >
        > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very dark brown
        > >
        > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
        > >
        > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
        > >
        > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what little
        > >
        > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in Arizona a
        > >
        > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining & smelting. I
        > >
        > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that lives
        > >
        > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a package
        > >
        > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings; he had
        > >
        > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me where
        > >
        > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of tailings
        > >
        > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour sifter.
        > >
        > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I still
        > >
        > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that anyone send
        > >
        > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great. If all
        > >
        > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense. But, you
        > >
        > > all know what'll happen�..as soon as the last section of ballast
        > >
        > > dries someone will post a picture�and I'll have guessed wrong.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks again,
        > >
        > > Dennis
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the gold mines
        > >
        > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in basalt
        > >
        > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a mottled
        > >
        > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the actual
        > >
        > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
        > >
        > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have seen
        > >
        > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in Northern
        > >
        > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and stays
        > >
        > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads here
        > >
        > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it for
        > >
        > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I hope
        > >
        > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and more
        > >
        > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
        > >
        > > tracks, pictures, etc.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
        > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > -=Andrew Brandon=-
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
        http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dennis Ivison
        Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was referred to as The Golden Road because of the gold still in the ballast. I ve been re-reading all
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 16, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was referred
          to as "The Golden Road" because of the gold still in the ballast.
          I've been re-reading all my resources to try to find that reference.

          I definitely have enough information now to feel confident in my
          selection, and I really want to thank both Loren and Andrew for
          taking the time to help me out. Getting the proper ballast color may
          sound inconsequential, but I would like to get it right. When I get
          the new pike up and running I'll be back to monthly operations
          sessions, as well as hosting regular layout tours, and I'd like to do
          my adopted railroad justice.

          Thanks again,
          Dennis


          --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with
          actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical
          content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
          >
          > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
          > > From: andrew.brandon@...
          > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
          > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
          > >
          > > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river
          rock.
          > > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
          > > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
          > > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
          > > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but
          excellent
          > > for drainage.
          > >
          > > You can see an example of this ballast here:
          > > http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/pb/images/img18676447aa39e8140b.jpg
          > > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea,
          you're
          > > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
          > > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
          > > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's
          book
          > > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W.
          that
          > > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
          > >
          > > -=Andrew=-
          > >
          > >
          > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@...>
          wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a
          welder, but in this business in this area for small companies,
          everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology,
          drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16
          to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest
          continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket
          mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine
          tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well
          as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be
          either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the
          surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is
          exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the
          quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we
          would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however,
          sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case
          was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the
          Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew
          tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could
          walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is
          a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is
          horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In
          any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings
          that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed
          over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money
          would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine
          portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings
          that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark
          gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast.
          Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
          because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes
          drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to
          the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under
          the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp
          edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in
          this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The
          closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a
          welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would
          love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so
          this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun.
          Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area
          and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably
          find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed.
          Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake,
          and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the
          cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in
          the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the
          area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks.ca.gov/?
          page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far,
          the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S.
          http://www.origsix.com/ and then there is this site if you haven't
          seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/index.html?0.2172240024588714
          > > >
          > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
          > > > From: dennisivison@...
          > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
          > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Loren,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
          > > >
          > > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
          > > >
          > > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of
          being a
          > > >
          > > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites
          that we
          > > >
          > > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings.
          We saw
          > > >
          > > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very
          dark brown
          > > >
          > > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
          > > >
          > > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
          > > >
          > > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what
          little
          > > >
          > > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in
          Arizona a
          > > >
          > > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining &
          smelting. I
          > > >
          > > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that
          lives
          > > >
          > > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a
          package
          > > >
          > > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings;
          he had
          > > >
          > > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me
          where
          > > >
          > > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of
          tailings
          > > >
          > > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour
          sifter.
          > > >
          > > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I
          still
          > > >
          > > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that
          anyone send
          > > >
          > > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great.
          If all
          > > >
          > > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense.
          But, you
          > > >
          > > > all know what'll happen…..as soon as the last section of
          ballast
          > > >
          > > > dries someone will post a picture…and I'll have guessed wrong.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks again,
          > > >
          > > > Dennis
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the
          gold mines
          > > >
          > > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in
          basalt
          > > >
          > > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a
          mottled
          > > >
          > > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the
          actual
          > > >
          > > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
          > > >
          > > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have
          seen
          > > >
          > > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in
          Northern
          > > >
          > > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and
          stays
          > > >
          > > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads
          here
          > > >
          > > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it
          for
          > > >
          > > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I
          hope
          > > >
          > > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and
          more
          > > >
          > > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
          > > >
          > > > tracks, pictures, etc.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
          Live Messenger.
          > > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
          ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
          yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > -=Andrew Brandon=-
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
          yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live
          Messenger.
          > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
          ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Doug MacLeod
          Dennis: Chapter 4, page 38, first paragraph, in Jerry Best s Nevada County Narrow Gauge book. Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA ... From: Dennis Ivison To:
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 16, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dennis:
            Chapter 4, page 38, first paragraph, in Jerry Best's Nevada County Narrow Gauge book.
            Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dennis Ivison
            To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:23 PM
            Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question


            Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was referred
            to as "The Golden Road" because of the gold still in the ballast.
            I've been re-reading all my resources to try to find that reference.

            I definitely have enough information now to feel confident in my
            selection, and I really want to thank both Loren and Andrew for
            taking the time to help me out. Getting the proper ballast color may
            sound inconsequential, but I would like to get it right. When I get
            the new pike up and running I'll be back to monthly operations
            sessions, as well as hosting regular layout tours, and I'd like to do
            my adopted railroad justice.

            Thanks again,
            Dennis

            --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this with
            actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual historical
            content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
            >
            > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: andrew.brandon@...
            > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
            > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
            > >
            > > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast, river
            rock.
            > > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the ballast
            > > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran the
            > > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
            > > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but
            excellent
            > > for drainage.
            > >
            > > You can see an example of this ballast here:
            > > http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/pb/images/img18676447aa39e8140b.jpg
            > > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some idea,
            you're
            > > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in there.
            > > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were still "lightly"
            > > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from Best's
            book
            > > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the R.O.W.
            that
            > > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
            > >
            > > -=Andrew=-
            > >
            > >
            > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@...>
            wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a
            welder, but in this business in this area for small companies,
            everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology,
            drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original 16
            to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest
            continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a pocket
            mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine
            tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as well
            as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be
            either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the
            surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz is
            exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in the
            quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and we
            would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however,
            sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our case
            was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the
            Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our crew
            tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists could
            walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A winze is
            a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is
            horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt. In
            any case, most mines around here were similar in that the tailings
            that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed
            over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of money
            would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find mine
            portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings
            that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that dark
            gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the ballast.
            Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be ballast
            because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes
            drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up to
            the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily under
            the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp
            edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad in
            this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The
            closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would be a
            welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course would
            love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled so
            this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun.
            Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the area
            and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will probably
            find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail roadbed.
            Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's sake,
            and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer the
            cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them in
            the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the
            area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks.ca.gov/?
            page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by far,
            the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S.
            http://www.origsix.com/ and then there is this site if you haven't
            seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/index.html?0.2172240024588714
            > > >
            > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
            > > > From: dennisivison@...
            > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
            > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Loren,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've been a
            > > >
            > > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark, tight
            > > >
            > > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought of
            being a
            > > >
            > > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs wobble!
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites
            that we
            > > >
            > > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were tailings.
            We saw
            > > >
            > > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very
            dark brown
            > > >
            > > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in case. I
            > > >
            > > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow" from
            > > >
            > > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving what
            little
            > > >
            > > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in
            Arizona a
            > > >
            > > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining &
            smelting. I
            > > >
            > > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that
            lives
            > > >
            > > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had a
            package
            > > >
            > > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine tailings;
            he had
            > > >
            > > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told me
            where
            > > >
            > > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of
            tailings
            > > >
            > > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's flour
            sifter.
            > > >
            > > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them! I
            still
            > > >
            > > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that
            anyone send
            > > >
            > > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be great.
            If all
            > > >
            > > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most sense.
            But, you
            > > >
            > > > all know what'll happen...as soon as the last section of
            ballast
            > > >
            > > > dries someone will post a picture.and I'll have guessed wrong.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks again,
            > > >
            > > > Dennis
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the
            gold mines
            > > >
            > > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein in
            basalt
            > > >
            > > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine a
            mottled
            > > >
            > > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the
            actual
            > > >
            > > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
            > > >
            > > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have
            seen
            > > >
            > > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in
            Northern
            > > >
            > > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges and
            stays
            > > >
            > > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt roads
            here
            > > >
            > > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells it
            for
            > > >
            > > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons. I
            hope
            > > >
            > > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and
            more
            > > >
            > > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual ncngrr
            > > >
            > > > tracks, pictures, etc.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            __________________________________________________________
            > > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
            Live Messenger.
            > > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
            ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
            yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > -=Andrew Brandon=-
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
            yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live
            Messenger.
            > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
            ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dennis Ivison
            Thanks Doug, that saved me some looking. I learned aboud hygrading for the first time when we visited the Empire Mine. I guess that would be a good little
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 17, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks Doug, that saved me some looking. I learned aboud "hygrading"
              for the first time when we visited the Empire Mine. I guess that
              would be a good little side job.

              --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, "Doug MacLeod" <dmacleod@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dennis:
              > Chapter 4, page 38, first paragraph, in Jerry Best's Nevada
              County Narrow Gauge book.
              > Doug MacLeod, Roseville, CA
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Dennis Ivison
              > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:23 PM
              > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
              >
              >
              > Somewhere in my reading an author said the narrow gauge was
              referred
              > to as "The Golden Road" because of the gold still in the ballast.
              > I've been re-reading all my resources to try to find that
              reference.
              >
              > I definitely have enough information now to feel confident in my
              > selection, and I really want to thank both Loren and Andrew for
              > taking the time to help me out. Getting the proper ballast color
              may
              > sound inconsequential, but I would like to get it right. When I
              get
              > the new pike up and running I'll be back to monthly operations
              > sessions, as well as hosting regular layout tours, and I'd like
              to do
              > my adopted railroad justice.
              >
              > Thanks again,
              > Dennis
              >
              > --- In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > AhHA! I knew somebody would be more of an authority on this
              with
              > actual photos and existing right of way, as well as actual
              historical
              > content. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
              > >
              > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
              > > > From: andrew.brandon@
              > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:10:14 -0700
              > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
              > > >
              > > > The NCNG used the cheapest material they could as ballast,
              river
              > rock.
              > > > If you look closely in NCNG photos you'll notice that the
              ballast
              > > > seems to be very "white" in later years. Since the NCNG ran
              the
              > > > standard gauge gravel spur they had a cheap source of ballast,
              > > > uncomfortable to walk on, a pain in neck to work with but
              > excellent
              > > > for drainage.
              > > >
              > > > You can see an example of this ballast here:
              > > >
              http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/pb/images/img18676447aa39e8140b.jpg
              > > > It is not the greatest picture but it will give you some
              idea,
              > you're
              > > > looking for a mostly quartz ballast with some limestone in
              there.
              > > > Keep in mind that along the NCNG some areas were
              still "lightly"
              > > > ballasted I believe the photo of the You Bet station from
              Best's
              > book
              > > > shows this. If I get a chance I'll scan a few shots of the
              R.O.W.
              > that
              > > > show the ballasting and upload them to the group.
              > > >
              > > > -=Andrew=-
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Loren Miller <rioting@>
              > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Yes I worked underground for 2 companies. I was hired as a
              > welder, but in this business in this area for small companies,
              > everybody learns everything. I learned a bit about the geology,
              > drilling blasting and what to do with the aftermath. The Original
              16
              > to One mine in Allegheny, Ca, which is to date the oldest
              > continuously working gold mine in the U.S. was what we call a
              pocket
              > mine. This is because the gold occurred in pockets. We would mine
              > tons of beautiful white quartz and find nothing in it. This as
              well
              > as whatever rock we blew up was called waste rock, and would be
              > either backfilled into the stopes we mined out, or removed to the
              > surface and screened, and then sold as road rock. When the quartz
              is
              > exposed to the air, it turns brown. Since the gold only occurs in
              the
              > quartz, it only makes sense to mine that. Mining is expensive and
              we
              > would only want to mine what potentially has gold in it, however,
              > sometimes we would have to drift through bedrock, which in our
              case
              > was basalt to get to suspected quartz veins. In the case of the
              > Empire Mine in Grass Valley, a couple of years ago, men from our
              crew
              > tunneled a drift some 800 feet to the main shaft so tourists
              could
              > walk a level path into the deeper part of the main winze. (A
              winze is
              > a shaft that is not vertical, a drift is a tunnel that is
              > horizontal.) That project was all waste rock, and a lot of dirt.
              In
              > any case, most mines around here were similar in that the
              tailings
              > that were suspected to have no potential for gold would be tossed
              > over the easiest hill from the portal as the least amount of
              money
              > would be spent on it's disposal. If you look around you can find
              mine
              > portals and estimate the size based upon the mountain of tailings
              > that cascade down from the portal. Most of these will be that
              dark
              > gray color, which you will find also to be the color of the
              ballast.
              > Quartz does not usually have the structural integrity to be
              ballast
              > because it crumbles easy. Basalt is very tough stuff and consumes
              > drill bits, and much explosives to break it, as well, it holds up
              to
              > the rigors of supporting railroad ties, doesn't break easily
              under
              > the weight of heavy rolling stock and stays put due to it's sharp
              > edges. It is likely to be the ballast of choice for any railroad
              in
              > this area because it is already broken, crushed, and FREE. The
              > closest mine to the railroad with a huge pile of tailings would
              be a
              > welcome resource to the railroad company. The mine of course
              would
              > love to have the problem of getting rid of the tailings handled
              so
              > this would have been a marriage "set in stone" Excuse the pun.
              > Anyway, if you have the google earth program, you can search the
              area
              > and find much of what you are looking for. Also, you will
              probably
              > find similar rock used for ballast at any California rail
              roadbed.
              > Try the SP lines in your area. On another note, for history's
              sake,
              > and the history of the SP, my great grandfather used to engineer
              the
              > cab forward ACs from Colfax to Reno. We have the last one of them
              in
              > the California Railroad Museum in Sacramento when you are in the
              > area. Quite an impressive museum. http://www.parks.ca.gov/?
              > page_id=668 Also, look up the 16 to one mine, as they have by
              far,
              > the best underground gold mine tour in the U.S.
              > http://www.origsix.com/ and then there is this site if you
              haven't
              > seen it yet: http://www.ncngrrmuseum.org/index.html?
              0.2172240024588714
              > > > >
              > > > > To: NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > From: dennisivison@
              > > > > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:01:17 +0000
              > > > > Subject: Re: <NevadaCoNG> An Introduction, and a Question
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Loren,
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thank you for the input. Did you work underground? I've
              been a
              > > > >
              > > > > firefighter for 23 years and have been in some very dark,
              tight
              > > > >
              > > > > places, but when I looked down that mine shaft and thought
              of
              > being a
              > > > >
              > > > > mile underground I have to admit that it made my legs
              wobble!
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I looked around for some tailings at some of the mine sites
              > that we
              > > > >
              > > > > visited and couldn't tell if any of the rocks were
              tailings.
              > We saw
              > > > >
              > > > > all of the colors that you mentioned, as well as some very
              > dark brown
              > > > >
              > > > > quartz. I took some pictures of each, you know just in
              case. I
              > > > >
              > > > > thought of taking some samples, but don't like to "borrow"
              from
              > > > >
              > > > > historical sites. We have a hard enough time preserving
              what
              > little
              > > > >
              > > > > history we have left already. When I modeled the Espee in
              > Arizona a
              > > > >
              > > > > large part of the layout was devoted to copper mining &
              > smelting. I
              > > > >
              > > > > have a retired friend (we were partners for 10+ years) that
              > lives
              > > > >
              > > > > down there, and one time after a phone conversation, I had
              a
              > package
              > > > >
              > > > > show-up via USPS. It was about 10 lbs of copper mine
              tailings;
              > he had
              > > > >
              > > > > sifted it down to fine grains and everything! The note told
              me
              > where
              > > > >
              > > > > he got them, and I suspect that they were probably a mix of
              > tailings
              > > > >
              > > > > and slag...great stuff, I hope he didn't use his wife's
              flour
              > sifter.
              > > > >
              > > > > For awhile I was reluctant to use them, or even touch them!
              I
              > still
              > > > >
              > > > > have a bunch of that stuff left. I'm not suggesting that
              > anyone send
              > > > >
              > > > > me another bag of dirt, just knowing the color would be
              great.
              > If all
              > > > >
              > > > > else fails I'll go with the basalt, it makes the most
              sense.
              > But, you
              > > > >
              > > > > all know what'll happen...as soon as the last section of
              > ballast
              > > > >
              > > > > dries someone will post a picture.and I'll have guessed
              wrong.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks again,
              > > > >
              > > > > Dennis
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > In NCNGRR@yahoogroups.com, Loren Miller <rioting@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > > Interesting. I live here and have actually worked in the
              > gold mines
              > > > >
              > > > > of the area. Most of the hard rock mines are a quartz vein
              in
              > basalt
              > > > >
              > > > > and/or serpentine. The basalt is dark gray, the serpentine
              a
              > mottled
              > > > >
              > > > > green but has no structural integrity. I have not seen the
              > actual
              > > > >
              > > > > ballast from the ncngrr, nor the tailings from the mine you
              > > > >
              > > > > mentioned. Perhaps somebody can tell you better, but I have
              > seen
              > > > >
              > > > > nothing but gray to dark gray ballast on any tracks here in
              > Northern
              > > > >
              > > > > California, and the basalt is quite hard, has sharp edges
              and
              > stays
              > > > >
              > > > > put as it locks into place. It is also used on many dirt
              roads
              > here
              > > > >
              > > > > for the same reasons ans in the quarry industry that sells
              it
              > for
              > > > >
              > > > > that purpose, it is called "mine rock" for obvious reasons.
              I
              > hope
              > > > >
              > > > > that helps some. Other people here may have better info and
              > more
              > > > >
              > > > > accurate having done much closer research to the actual
              ncngrr
              > > > >
              > > > > tracks, pictures, etc.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > > > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
              > Live Messenger.
              > > > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
              > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS
              section
              > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --
              > > > -=Andrew Brandon=-
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------
              > > >
              > > > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section
              > yet? Check them out!Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________________
              > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows
              Live
              > Messenger.
              > > http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?
              > ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • brucec4193@aol.com
              Hello, I am a new member and was under the impression that there was to be a meeting tonight at the De Witt center? Could you please tell me where and when
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 17, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello,

                I am a new member and was under the impression that there was to be a
                meeting tonight at the De Witt center? Could you please tell me where and when the
                next meeting is?

                Thanks,

                Bruce Choate



                **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
                listings at AOL Autos.
                (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.