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Re: 8-ton Carter Bros box car

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  • Randy Hees
    When modeling the NCNG short boxcars you need to remember that there were really two phases… Phase one are the original 15 cars built in 1875, numbered 2-30
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 18, 2006
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      When modeling the NCNG short boxcars you need to remember that there
      were really two phases…

      Phase one are the original 15 cars built in 1875, numbered 2-30 (even
      numbers only) plus one more, apparently assembled by the NCNG from a
      Carter kit, numbered 32.

      These original cars (along with sister cars on the M&SV, NPC, SPC, SC&F
      and SCV) can be modeled using the laser cut kit from Deerfield models
      (described by Boone Morrison in the Sept/Oct O5 Gazette. Email edward448
      @ cs.com (remove the spaces) Alternatly if scratch building these cars,
      Doug’s box car casting set is a good start, available from Foothill
      models (link below)

      Later, the NCNG rebuilt these cars, with some growing to 26’. Foothill
      models has a great resin kit of this version (they also carry Doug’s
      trucks and other castings) http://home.inreach.com/jkitts/Car1.html

      The Carter 8 ton trucks are believed to be a 3’8” wheel base truck, with
      24” wheels, with wooden transom beams, with the ends cut off with a
      bevel underneath (this is the primary “spotting feature”), equipped with
      rubber springs. As far as I can tell these have never been produced, as
      built, but Coronado has some DSP&P trucks which seem close. Using Doug’s
      is a very good compromise.

      As for paint, our best guess for Carter is a Tuscan Red. I like scale
      coat. The underbody wasn’t painted. Anything painted was painted Tuscany
      including the trucks.

      Herman’s plans, mentioned by Doug is a good start. Bruce MacGregor’s
      book, the Birth of California Narrow Gauge (Stanford University Press,
      still in print) is very good for early Carter designs, and includes lots
      of drawings, and a color copy of a paint chip.

      Randy Hees
    • Andrew Brandon
      Randy, Is it known if Carter painted the cars? I had always thought they were kits which were delivered to the NCNG and then assembled. The reason I wonder
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 18, 2006
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        Randy,

        Is it known if Carter painted the cars?
        I had always thought they were kits which were delivered to the NCNG
        and then assembled.
        The reason I wonder this is because of the lettering style on the
        cars, while they did appear to use railroad roman in the earliest
        photo I could locate showing lettering (1877 I think) the lettering is
        in the familiar arch on the sides. Herman and I looked at this when I
        was working on the decals for the Deerfield kits. To me and just as a
        complete speculation, I have a feeling that Kidder had some influence
        on the way the cars were painted originally because of this.
        As far as color goes, I've seen a few color images which show the cars
        from a shade of Tuscan to a very oxide red, Herman has noted this to
        me a few times in our chats and as far as later on in the life of the
        road based on the color film footage that was taken the cars
        definately seem to be more red than anything else.

        -Andrew-

        p.s. Doug can you send me an email, I have something for you.
        On 4/18/06, Randy Hees <hees@...> wrote:
        > When modeling the NCNG short boxcars you need to remember that there
        > were really two phases…
        >
        > Phase one are the original 15 cars built in 1875, numbered 2-30 (even
        > numbers only) plus one more, apparently assembled by the NCNG from a
        > Carter kit, numbered 32.
        >
        > These original cars (along with sister cars on the M&SV, NPC, SPC, SC&F
        > and SCV) can be modeled using the laser cut kit from Deerfield models
        > (described by Boone Morrison in the Sept/Oct O5 Gazette. Email edward448
        > @ cs.com (remove the spaces) Alternatly if scratch building these cars,
        > Doug's box car casting set is a good start, available from Foothill
        > models (link below)
        >
        > Later, the NCNG rebuilt these cars, with some growing to 26'. Foothill
        > models has a great resin kit of this version (they also carry Doug's
        > trucks and other castings) http://home.inreach.com/jkitts/Car1.html
        >
        > The Carter 8 ton trucks are believed to be a 3'8" wheel base truck, with
        > 24" wheels, with wooden transom beams, with the ends cut off with a
        > bevel underneath (this is the primary "spotting feature"), equipped with
        > rubber springs. As far as I can tell these have never been produced, as
        > built, but Coronado has some DSP&P trucks which seem close. Using Doug's
        > is a very good compromise.
        >
        > As for paint, our best guess for Carter is a Tuscan Red. I like scale
        > coat. The underbody wasn't painted. Anything painted was painted Tuscany
        > including the trucks.
        >
        > Herman's plans, mentioned by Doug is a good start. Bruce MacGregor's
        > book, the Birth of California Narrow Gauge (Stanford University Press,
        > still in print) is very good for early Carter designs, and includes lots
        > of drawings, and a color copy of a paint chip.
        >
        > Randy Hees
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        --
        -=Andrew Brandon=-
      • Randy Hees
        Andrew... The best knowlage is the cars were built as kits in the Carter s short lived San Francisco plant, but assembled by a Carter crew in Colfax (at least
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 19, 2006
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          Andrew...

          The best knowlage is the cars were built as kits in the Carter's short
          lived San Francisco plant, but assembled by a Carter crew in Colfax (at
          least the first 15 cars). As such we would assume they painted them
          their standard color. Lettering could have been done by a locally hired
          sign painter, as was done in Monterey, so there could easly be a local
          influence there.

          Wooden cars were repainted and resided frequently, and within 10 years
          it is likely that eveything had been repainted by the railroad at least
          once, so would no longer be builder's paint, but may well have been
          influenced by the builder's practice.

          By the time color film is available (mid to late 1930's) The cars have
          been rebuilt several times, and repainted many times, and managment had
          changed at least 3 times, so anything you see is NCNG railroad not
          Carter Brothers.

          Randy


          Andrew Brandon wrote:

          >Randy,
          >
          >Is it known if Carter painted the cars?
          >I had always thought they were kits which were delivered to the NCNG
          >and then assembled.
          >The reason I wonder this is because of the lettering style on the
          >cars, while they did appear to use railroad roman in the earliest
          >photo I could locate showing lettering (1877 I think) the lettering is
          >in the familiar arch on the sides. Herman and I looked at this when I
          >was working on the decals for the Deerfield kits. To me and just as a
          >complete speculation, I have a feeling that Kidder had some influence
          >on the way the cars were painted originally because of this.
          >As far as color goes, I've seen a few color images which show the cars
          >from a shade of Tuscan to a very oxide red, Herman has noted this to
          >me a few times in our chats and as far as later on in the life of the
          >road based on the color film footage that was taken the cars
          >definately seem to be more red than anything else.
          >
          >-Andrew-
          >
          >p.s. Doug can you send me an email, I have something for you.
          >On 4/18/06, Randy Hees <hees@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>When modeling the NCNG short boxcars you need to remember that there
          >>were really two phases…
          >>
          >>Phase one are the original 15 cars built in 1875, numbered 2-30 (even
          >>numbers only) plus one more, apparently assembled by the NCNG from a
          >>Carter kit, numbered 32.
          >>
          >>These original cars (along with sister cars on the M&SV, NPC, SPC, SC&F
          >>and SCV) can be modeled using the laser cut kit from Deerfield models
          >>(described by Boone Morrison in the Sept/Oct O5 Gazette. Email edward448
          >>@ cs.com (remove the spaces) Alternatly if scratch building these cars,
          >>Doug's box car casting set is a good start, available from Foothill
          >>models (link below)
          >>
          >>Later, the NCNG rebuilt these cars, with some growing to 26'. Foothill
          >>models has a great resin kit of this version (they also carry Doug's
          >>trucks and other castings) http://home.inreach.com/jkitts/Car1.html
          >>
          >>The Carter 8 ton trucks are believed to be a 3'8" wheel base truck, with
          >>24" wheels, with wooden transom beams, with the ends cut off with a
          >>bevel underneath (this is the primary "spotting feature"), equipped with
          >>rubber springs. As far as I can tell these have never been produced, as
          >>built, but Coronado has some DSP&P trucks which seem close. Using Doug's
          >>is a very good compromise.
          >>
          >>As for paint, our best guess for Carter is a Tuscan Red. I like scale
          >>coat. The underbody wasn't painted. Anything painted was painted Tuscany
          >>including the trucks.
          >>
          >>Herman's plans, mentioned by Doug is a good start. Bruce MacGregor's
          >>book, the Birth of California Narrow Gauge (Stanford University Press,
          >>still in print) is very good for early Carter designs, and includes lots
          >>of drawings, and a color copy of a paint chip.
          >>
          >>Randy Hees
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >--
          >-=Andrew Brandon=-
          >
          >
          >Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Andrew Brandon
          Randy, Thanks for clearing that up. It looks like I ll have to go digging into some old newspapers to see if I can find any mention of the construction work in
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 19, 2006
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            Randy,

            Thanks for clearing that up.
            It looks like I'll have to go digging into some old newspapers to see
            if I can find any mention of the construction work in Colfax. I
            believe that at that point in time atleast 3 papers covered the colfax
            area so there might be some useful information around. Since it was
            the Carter crew that assembled them I agree that a tuscan color would
            most likely be appropriate.

            -Andrew Brandon-





            On 4/19/06, Randy Hees <hees@...> wrote:
            > Andrew...
            >
            > The best knowlage is the cars were built as kits in the Carter's short
            > lived San Francisco plant, but assembled by a Carter crew in Colfax (at
            > least the first 15 cars). As such we would assume they painted them
            > their standard color. Lettering could have been done by a locally hired
            > sign painter, as was done in Monterey, so there could easly be a local
            > influence there.
            >
            > Wooden cars were repainted and resided frequently, and within 10 years
            > it is likely that eveything had been repainted by the railroad at least
            > once, so would no longer be builder's paint, but may well have been
            > influenced by the builder's practice.
            >
            > By the time color film is available (mid to late 1930's) The cars have
            > been rebuilt several times, and repainted many times, and managment had
            > changed at least 3 times, so anything you see is NCNG railroad not
            > Carter Brothers.
            >
            > Randy
            >
            >
            > Andrew Brandon wrote:
            >
            > >Randy,
            > >
            > >Is it known if Carter painted the cars?
            > >I had always thought they were kits which were delivered to the NCNG
            > >and then assembled.
            > >The reason I wonder this is because of the lettering style on the
            > >cars, while they did appear to use railroad roman in the earliest
            > >photo I could locate showing lettering (1877 I think) the lettering is
            > >in the familiar arch on the sides. Herman and I looked at this when I
            > >was working on the decals for the Deerfield kits. To me and just as a
            > >complete speculation, I have a feeling that Kidder had some influence
            > >on the way the cars were painted originally because of this.
            > >As far as color goes, I've seen a few color images which show the cars
            > >from a shade of Tuscan to a very oxide red, Herman has noted this to
            > >me a few times in our chats and as far as later on in the life of the
            > >road based on the color film footage that was taken the cars
            > >definately seem to be more red than anything else.
            > >
            > >-Andrew-
            > >
            > >p.s. Doug can you send me an email, I have something for you.
            > >On 4/18/06, Randy Hees <hees@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >>When modeling the NCNG short boxcars you need to remember that there
            > >>were really two phases…
            > >>
            > >>Phase one are the original 15 cars built in 1875, numbered 2-30 (even
            > >>numbers only) plus one more, apparently assembled by the NCNG from a
            > >>Carter kit, numbered 32.
            > >>
            > >>These original cars (along with sister cars on the M&SV, NPC, SPC, SC&F
            > >>and SCV) can be modeled using the laser cut kit from Deerfield models
            > >>(described by Boone Morrison in the Sept/Oct O5 Gazette. Email edward448
            > >>@ cs.com (remove the spaces) Alternatly if scratch building these cars,
            > >>Doug's box car casting set is a good start, available from Foothill
            > >>models (link below)
            > >>
            > >>Later, the NCNG rebuilt these cars, with some growing to 26'. Foothill
            > >>models has a great resin kit of this version (they also carry Doug's
            > >>trucks and other castings) http://home.inreach.com/jkitts/Car1.html
            > >>
            > >>The Carter 8 ton trucks are believed to be a 3'8" wheel base truck, with
            > >>24" wheels, with wooden transom beams, with the ends cut off with a
            > >>bevel underneath (this is the primary "spotting feature"), equipped with
            > >>rubber springs. As far as I can tell these have never been produced, as
            > >>built, but Coronado has some DSP&P trucks which seem close. Using Doug's
            > >>is a very good compromise.
            > >>
            > >>As for paint, our best guess for Carter is a Tuscan Red. I like scale
            > >>coat. The underbody wasn't painted. Anything painted was painted Tuscany
            > >>including the trucks.
            > >>
            > >>Herman's plans, mentioned by Doug is a good start. Bruce MacGregor's
            > >>book, the Birth of California Narrow Gauge (Stanford University Press,
            > >>still in print) is very good for early Carter designs, and includes lots
            > >>of drawings, and a color copy of a paint chip.
            > >>
            > >>Randy Hees
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
            > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >--
            > >-=Andrew Brandon=-
            > >
            > >
            > >Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > Have you visited or contributed to the FILES or LINKS section yet? Check them out!
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            -=Andrew Brandon=-
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