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Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand -a-lone)

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  • David
    Tony When you have in the case of 2Tone the small vertical lines on the long vertical lines then you will be transmitting on the same frequency as the FSK
    Message 1 of 37 , Aug 30, 2013
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      Tony

      When you have in the case of 2Tone the small vertical lines on the long
      vertical lines then you will be transmitting on the same frequency as
      the FSK frequency as long as 2Tone mark and space frequencies have been
      correctly set.

      However I observe that often people call me off frequency when I am
      running because they have not accurately tuned in my signal. Using AFSK
      with 2Tone avoids this problem as the AFC will be locked onto the
      received signal and in turn when S&P the transmit tone will replicate
      the receive tone frequency.

      It is easy to hear a signal, copy the call and call him without making
      sure the AFC is near 0Hz offset and so with FSK your TX will be
      frequency offset from the station you are calling.

      When running 2Tone automatically removes the netting to the receive
      signal and the TX AFSK frequency is as set with no AFC offset. Running,
      do not want the signal to change frequency.

      73 David


      On 30/08/2013 19:59, N2TK, Tony wrote:
      > Dave,
      >
      > I am not sure I am following you with "FSK using fixed transmit frequency".
      > Why am I not on the same frequency as the transmit station when I align with
      > the cross pattern?
      >
      > N2TK, Tony
      >
      >
      >
      > From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of David
      > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 3:29 PM
      > To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand -a-lone)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Tony
      >
      > Yes there is and that is a very simple but effective answer. When you
      > are S&P the TX tone will follow your RX tone frequency and so you will
      > always transmit on the other persons exact frequency. FSK using fixed
      > transmit frequency will not and the other end may not copy you on first
      > call due to you being off frequency. AFSK use avoids that.
      >
      > Also if you work other data modes and/or use SSB voice keying from N1MM
      > then you already have the PC sound card to K3 cable so why not use it
      > for RTTY?
      >
      > In the case of the K3, I know Andy Flowers K0SM tried to over drive its
      > input and found the K3 dealt with it so no fears about overdrive causing
      > distortion.
      >
      > 73 David G3YYD
      >
      > On 30/08/2013 18:27, N2TK, Tony wrote:
      >> So, any reason for those of us with K3's with the latest firmware to
      > switch
      >> from FSK to AFSK?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> 73,
      >>
      >> N2TK, Tony
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com> ]
      > On
      >> Behalf Of David
      >> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 12:17 PM
      >> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand -a-lone)
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Russell
      >>
      >> Yes it is designed to replace MMTTY. It does not do FSK only AFSK for 2
      >> very good reasons. 1) MMTTY with extfsk has a lot of data bit timing
      >> jitter causing receiving errors and 2)rig based FSK is very anti-social
      >> in occupying a lot more bandwidth that necessary. The only exception I
      >> know of is the K3 FSK with latest firmware.
      >>
      >> If you read the documentation that comes with 2Tone see N1MM digital
      >> site here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger-Digital/ look in
      >> files section folder G3YYD You will find a simple how to install 2Tone
      > list.
      >> 73 David G3YYD
      >>
      >> On 30/08/2013 16:08, Russell Blair wrote:
      >>> Can 2Tone work as a stand-a-lone progran with N1MM. Not needing any other
      >> program with it as (MMTTY).
      >>> Russell NC5O
      >>>
      >>> " IN GOD WE TRUST " " Skype-Russell.Blair"
      >>> "God's law is set in stone..everything else is negotiable."
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ________________________________
      >>> From: Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr@... <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
      > <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
      >>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 10:03 AM
      >>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> You're right, Rich. I don't know why I could not get it to work at
      >>> first, but it is running fine now.
      >>>
      >>> 73, Pete N4ZR
      >>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at
      >>> http://reversebeacon.net,
      >>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
      >>> For spots, please go to your favorite
      >>> ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node.
      >>>
      >>> On 8/30/2013 9:27 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:
      >>>> Pete,
      >>>>
      >>>> Winkeyer PTT works in digital modes.
      >>>>
      >>>> 73,
      >>>> Rich VE3KI
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> Pete N4ZR wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>> Am I correct in understanding that Winkeyer PTT will not actuate with
      >>>> the {TX} and {RX} macros in digital modes? There doesn't seem to be any
      >>>> serious objection to using VOX, if you want to use AFSK, but I'm
      > curious.
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>>>
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      >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >>>>
      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>
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    • Joe Subich, W4TV
      The same information has been on K0SM s web site for some months: http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html
      Message 37 of 37 , Sep 2, 2013
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        The same information has been on K0SM's web site for some months:
        http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html
        http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3_afsk/
        and: http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/ (on the
        updated K3 FSK firmware)

        73,

        ... Joe, W4TV


        On 9/2/2013 3:59 PM, Steve London wrote:
        > Have any of you read K0SM's fine article in the latest NCJ on this subject ?
        >
        > And if you don't subscribe to the NCJ, you really ought to...
        >
        > http://www.arrl.org/ncj
        >
        > 73,
        > Steve, N2IC
        >
        > On 09/02/2013 07:06 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
        >>
        >> On 9/2/2013 6:12 AM, David wrote:
        >> > Here in Europe it is very rare for a AFSK station to have a problem.
        >>
        >> That is far form accurate. Monitor the *entire* digital spectrum and
        >> the percentage of lousy signals is just as great from Europe as it is
        >> from North/South America. While the absolute number may be lower, that
        >> may be due to a lower number of licensees/stations in Europe than in
        >> North America.
        >>
        >> Note: while folks have been giving MMTTY a "Pass" due to its 400 Hz TX
        >> BPF, that is not 100% accurate. The default TX BF is only 48 taps
        >> which results in a 1300 Hz -60 dB bandwidth (click the "f" button to
        >> see the response). A more appropriate setting would be 256 taps with
        >> its ~600 Hz -60 dB bandwidth.
        >>
        >> 73,
        >>
        >> ... Joe, W4TV
        >>
        >>
        >> On 9/2/2013 6:12 AM, David wrote:
        >>> Here in Europe it is very rare for a AFSK station to have a problem. I
        >>> wonder if this is more a US problem? Stations using FSK are a real pain
        >>> as they occupy so much bandwidth.
        >>>
        >>> I would rather put up with the odd AFSK signal that is not good than rig
        >>> based wide FSK signals. At least the AFSK operator can fix his signal
        >>> but using rig based FSK the only thing the operator can do is move to AFSK.
        >>>
        >>> 73 David G3YYD
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> On 02/09/2013 04:48, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>> There must be adequate filtering in the encoder (e.g. MMTTY or
        >>>>> 2Tone), and/or the radio, to produce a relatively clean signal. 2Tone
        >>>>> and the defaults in MMTTY provide adequate filtering as does (again)
        >>>>> the K3 itself.
        >>>>
        >>>> Not only that, *only* the K3 implements a narrow filter ahead of the
        >>>> modulator in the *transmit* audio chain. Without that filter, any
        >>>> user of AFSK - either MMTTY with a narrow TX BPF enabled, 2-Tone, or
        >>>> recent versions of fldigi - must still take care not to overdrive the
        >>>> transmit audio chain (the mic preamp in particular) or introduce
        >>>> distortion in the form of hum, ground loops, or RF feedback.
        >>>>
        >>>> Although filtered AFSK will start out requiring less bandwidth than
        >>>> "unfiltered FSK" generated by many rigs of the last 30 years, the
        >>>> AFSK is often wider in practice due to the inability of many users
        >>>> to properly interface and align their sound card and transceiver -
        >>>> whether that be due to lack of knowledge or lack of concern. Even
        >>>> some of the most well known stations have had excessively wide AFSK
        >>>> signals from time to time due to failure to adequately monitor audio
        >>>> levels.
        >>>>
        >>>> 73,
        >>>>
        >>>> ... Joe, W4TV
        >>>>
        >>>> On 9/2/2013 12:18 AM, Ed Muns wrote:
        >>>>> My take-aways from Andy's analyses ...
        >>>>>
        >>>>> 1. Inadequate filtering of EITHER FSK or AFSK can result in
        >>>> needlessly wide
        >>>>> transmission causing unnecessary QRM to nearby stations.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> 2. Most commercial radios are transmitting unfiltered FSK with the
        >>>>> exception of the K3 which implemented tight filtering on its FSK in
        >>>> firmware
        >>>>> release MCU 4.66 / DSP 2.81, 3-22-2013. This is not a user choice, but
        >>>>> rather a hard-wired feature in the firmware from that revision onward.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> 3. Transmitting with AFSK is not enough to guarantee a "friendly"
        >>>>> transmitted bandwidth. There must be adequate filtering in the encoder
        >>>>> (e.g. MMTTY or 2Tone), and/or the radio, to produce a relatively clean
        >>>>> signal. 2Tone and the defaults in MMTTY provide adequate filtering
        >>>> as does
        >>>>> (again) the K3 itself.
        >>>>>
        >>>>> 73,
        >>>>> Ed - W0YK
        >>>>> -------------------------
        >>>>> Ed Muns
        >>>>> www.w0yk.com
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>
        >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
        >>>>>> From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>> [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Pete Smith N4ZR
        >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 6:50 AM
        >>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM
        >>>>>> (stand -a-lone)
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Hi David - I will scan it and send it, assuming I can
        >>>>>> liberate my wife's scanner for a little while.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> BTW, I misunderstood Andrew's conclusion. His points were
        >>>>>> two-fold (or maybe 3):
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> * many radios' internally generated FSK is not properly
        >>>>>> wave-shaped, and therefore is much wider than the equivalent
        >>>>>> AFSK run through a 400 Hz audio filter. Under these
        >>>>>> circumstances, AFSK is better, though the FSK can be cleaned
        >>>>>> up by using a narrow filter for that mode, as the K3 permits.
        >>>>>> * Elecraft changed the K3's firmware in March, after Andrew
        >>>>>> submitted his article, and the resulting FSK is much, much
        >>>>>> cleaner than that in the article.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> Elsewhere I've read that MMTTY's EXTFSK introduces fairly
        >>>>>> significant timing errors, sufficient to make FSK sent by it
        >>>>>> rather harder to copy than it should be. I'm quite happy
        >>>>>> with my K3 on AFSK (and with 2Tone).
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
        >>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at
        >>>>>> http://reversebeacon.net,
        >>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
        >>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite
        >>>>>> ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node.
        >>>>>>
        >>>>>> On 8/31/2013 3:20 PM, David wrote:
        >>>>>>> Pete
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> Any chance you could scan that article and send me a copy?
        >>>>>> Or if you
        >>>>>>> prefer a synopsis? I would rather like to read it but NCJ
        >>>>>> is not one
        >>>>>>> of the journals I take.
        >>>>>>>
        >>>>>>> 73 David
        >>>>>>> On 31/08/2013 10:05, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
        >>>>>>>> K0SM's article in the latest NCJ should be required reading. He
        >>>>>>>> demonstrates rather conclusively that FSK signals from the K3 are
        >>>>>>>> wider than AFSKsigs.
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
        >>>>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net,
        >>>>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
        >>>>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster
        >>>>>>>> node.
        >>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>> On 8/30/2013 3:29 PM, David wrote:
        >>>>>>>>> Tony
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> Yes there is and that is a very simple but effective answer. When
        >>>>>>>>> you are S&P the TX tone will follow your RX tone frequency and so
        >>>>>>>>> you will always transmit on the other persons exact
        >>>>>> frequency. FSK
        >>>>>>>>> using fixed transmit frequency will not and the other end may not
        >>>>>>>>> copy you on first call due to you being off frequency.
        >>>>>> AFSK use avoids that.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> Also if you work other data modes and/or use SSB voice
        >>>>>> keying from
        >>>>>>>>> N1MM then you already have the PC sound card to K3 cable
        >>>>>> so why not
        >>>>>>>>> use it for RTTY?
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> In the case of the K3, I know Andy Flowers K0SM tried to
        >>>>>> over drive
        >>>>>>>>> its input and found the K3 dealt with it so no fears
        >>>>>> about overdrive
        >>>>>>>>> causing distortion.
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> 73 David G3YYD
        >>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>> On 30/08/2013 18:27, N2TK, Tony wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>> So, any reason for those of us with K3's with the latest
        >>>>>> firmware
        >>>>>>>>>> to switch from FSK to AFSK?
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> 73,
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> N2TK, Tony
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
        >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of David
        >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 12:17 PM
        >>>>>>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand
        >>>>>>>>>> -a-lone)
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> Russell
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> Yes it is designed to replace MMTTY. It does not do FSK
        >>>>>> only AFSK
        >>>>>>>>>> for 2
        >>>>>>>>>> very good reasons. 1) MMTTY with extfsk has a lot of
        >>>>>> data bit timing
        >>>>>>>>>> jitter causing receiving errors and 2)rig based FSK is very
        >>>>>>>>>> anti-social
        >>>>>>>>>> in occupying a lot more bandwidth that necessary. The
        >>>>>> only exception I
        >>>>>>>>>> know of is the K3 FSK with latest firmware.
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> If you read the documentation that comes with 2Tone see
        >>>>>> N1MM digital
        >>>>>>>>>> site here:
        >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger-Digital/ look in
        >>>>>>>>>> files section folder G3YYD You will find a simple how to install
        >>>>>>>>>> 2Tone list.
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> 73 David G3YYD
        >>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>> On 30/08/2013 16:08, Russell Blair wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>> Can 2Tone work as a stand-a-lone progran with N1MM. Not needing
        >>>>>>>>>>> any other
        >>>>>>>>>> program with it as (MMTTY).
        >>>>>>>>>>> Russell NC5O
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> " IN GOD WE TRUST " " Skype-Russell.Blair"
        >>>>>>>>>>> "God's law is set in stone..everything else is negotiable."
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
        >>>>>>>>>>> From: Pete Smith N4ZR<n4zr@...
        >>>> <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
        >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
        >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
        >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 10:03 AM
        >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> You're right, Rich. I don't know why I could not get it
        >>>>>> to work at
        >>>>>>>>>>> first, but it is running fine now.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
        >>>>>>>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at
        >>>>>>>>>>> http://reversebeacon.net,
        >>>>>>>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
        >>>>>>>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite
        >>>>>>>>>>> ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node.
        >>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2013 9:27 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Pete,
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Winkeyer PTT works in digital modes.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> 73,
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Rich VE3KI
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Pete N4ZR wrote:
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct in understanding that Winkeyer PTT will
        >>>>>> not actuate
        >>>>>>>>>>>> with
        >>>>>>>>>>>> the {TX} and {RX} macros in digital modes? There
        >>>>>> doesn't seem to
        >>>>>>>>>>>> be any
        >>>>>>>>>>>> serious objection to using VOX, if you want to use
        >>>>>> AFSK, but I'm
        >>>>>>>>>>>> curious.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
        >>>>>>>>>>>>
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