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92216Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand -a-lone)

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  • Joe Subich, W4TV
    Sep 2 1:54 PM
      The same information has been on K0SM's web site for some months:
      http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3rtty/k3rtty.html
      http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3_afsk/
      and: http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/ (on the
      updated K3 FSK firmware)

      73,

      ... Joe, W4TV


      On 9/2/2013 3:59 PM, Steve London wrote:
      > Have any of you read K0SM's fine article in the latest NCJ on this subject ?
      >
      > And if you don't subscribe to the NCJ, you really ought to...
      >
      > http://www.arrl.org/ncj
      >
      > 73,
      > Steve, N2IC
      >
      > On 09/02/2013 07:06 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
      >>
      >> On 9/2/2013 6:12 AM, David wrote:
      >> > Here in Europe it is very rare for a AFSK station to have a problem.
      >>
      >> That is far form accurate. Monitor the *entire* digital spectrum and
      >> the percentage of lousy signals is just as great from Europe as it is
      >> from North/South America. While the absolute number may be lower, that
      >> may be due to a lower number of licensees/stations in Europe than in
      >> North America.
      >>
      >> Note: while folks have been giving MMTTY a "Pass" due to its 400 Hz TX
      >> BPF, that is not 100% accurate. The default TX BF is only 48 taps
      >> which results in a 1300 Hz -60 dB bandwidth (click the "f" button to
      >> see the response). A more appropriate setting would be 256 taps with
      >> its ~600 Hz -60 dB bandwidth.
      >>
      >> 73,
      >>
      >> ... Joe, W4TV
      >>
      >>
      >> On 9/2/2013 6:12 AM, David wrote:
      >>> Here in Europe it is very rare for a AFSK station to have a problem. I
      >>> wonder if this is more a US problem? Stations using FSK are a real pain
      >>> as they occupy so much bandwidth.
      >>>
      >>> I would rather put up with the odd AFSK signal that is not good than rig
      >>> based wide FSK signals. At least the AFSK operator can fix his signal
      >>> but using rig based FSK the only thing the operator can do is move to AFSK.
      >>>
      >>> 73 David G3YYD
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> On 02/09/2013 04:48, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>> There must be adequate filtering in the encoder (e.g. MMTTY or
      >>>>> 2Tone), and/or the radio, to produce a relatively clean signal. 2Tone
      >>>>> and the defaults in MMTTY provide adequate filtering as does (again)
      >>>>> the K3 itself.
      >>>>
      >>>> Not only that, *only* the K3 implements a narrow filter ahead of the
      >>>> modulator in the *transmit* audio chain. Without that filter, any
      >>>> user of AFSK - either MMTTY with a narrow TX BPF enabled, 2-Tone, or
      >>>> recent versions of fldigi - must still take care not to overdrive the
      >>>> transmit audio chain (the mic preamp in particular) or introduce
      >>>> distortion in the form of hum, ground loops, or RF feedback.
      >>>>
      >>>> Although filtered AFSK will start out requiring less bandwidth than
      >>>> "unfiltered FSK" generated by many rigs of the last 30 years, the
      >>>> AFSK is often wider in practice due to the inability of many users
      >>>> to properly interface and align their sound card and transceiver -
      >>>> whether that be due to lack of knowledge or lack of concern. Even
      >>>> some of the most well known stations have had excessively wide AFSK
      >>>> signals from time to time due to failure to adequately monitor audio
      >>>> levels.
      >>>>
      >>>> 73,
      >>>>
      >>>> ... Joe, W4TV
      >>>>
      >>>> On 9/2/2013 12:18 AM, Ed Muns wrote:
      >>>>> My take-aways from Andy's analyses ...
      >>>>>
      >>>>> 1. Inadequate filtering of EITHER FSK or AFSK can result in
      >>>> needlessly wide
      >>>>> transmission causing unnecessary QRM to nearby stations.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> 2. Most commercial radios are transmitting unfiltered FSK with the
      >>>>> exception of the K3 which implemented tight filtering on its FSK in
      >>>> firmware
      >>>>> release MCU 4.66 / DSP 2.81, 3-22-2013. This is not a user choice, but
      >>>>> rather a hard-wired feature in the firmware from that revision onward.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> 3. Transmitting with AFSK is not enough to guarantee a "friendly"
      >>>>> transmitted bandwidth. There must be adequate filtering in the encoder
      >>>>> (e.g. MMTTY or 2Tone), and/or the radio, to produce a relatively clean
      >>>>> signal. 2Tone and the defaults in MMTTY provide adequate filtering
      >>>> as does
      >>>>> (again) the K3 itself.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> 73,
      >>>>> Ed - W0YK
      >>>>> -------------------------
      >>>>> Ed Muns
      >>>>> www.w0yk.com
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
      >>>>>> From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>> [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Pete Smith N4ZR
      >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 6:50 AM
      >>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com<mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM
      >>>>>> (stand -a-lone)
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Hi David - I will scan it and send it, assuming I can
      >>>>>> liberate my wife's scanner for a little while.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> BTW, I misunderstood Andrew's conclusion. His points were
      >>>>>> two-fold (or maybe 3):
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> * many radios' internally generated FSK is not properly
      >>>>>> wave-shaped, and therefore is much wider than the equivalent
      >>>>>> AFSK run through a 400 Hz audio filter. Under these
      >>>>>> circumstances, AFSK is better, though the FSK can be cleaned
      >>>>>> up by using a narrow filter for that mode, as the K3 permits.
      >>>>>> * Elecraft changed the K3's firmware in March, after Andrew
      >>>>>> submitted his article, and the resulting FSK is much, much
      >>>>>> cleaner than that in the article.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Elsewhere I've read that MMTTY's EXTFSK introduces fairly
      >>>>>> significant timing errors, sufficient to make FSK sent by it
      >>>>>> rather harder to copy than it should be. I'm quite happy
      >>>>>> with my K3 on AFSK (and with 2Tone).
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
      >>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at
      >>>>>> http://reversebeacon.net,
      >>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
      >>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite
      >>>>>> ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> On 8/31/2013 3:20 PM, David wrote:
      >>>>>>> Pete
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Any chance you could scan that article and send me a copy?
      >>>>>> Or if you
      >>>>>>> prefer a synopsis? I would rather like to read it but NCJ
      >>>>>> is not one
      >>>>>>> of the journals I take.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> 73 David
      >>>>>>> On 31/08/2013 10:05, Pete Smith N4ZR wrote:
      >>>>>>>> K0SM's article in the latest NCJ should be required reading. He
      >>>>>>>> demonstrates rather conclusively that FSK signals from the K3 are
      >>>>>>>> wider than AFSKsigs.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
      >>>>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net,
      >>>>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
      >>>>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster
      >>>>>>>> node.
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> On 8/30/2013 3:29 PM, David wrote:
      >>>>>>>>> Tony
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Yes there is and that is a very simple but effective answer. When
      >>>>>>>>> you are S&P the TX tone will follow your RX tone frequency and so
      >>>>>>>>> you will always transmit on the other persons exact
      >>>>>> frequency. FSK
      >>>>>>>>> using fixed transmit frequency will not and the other end may not
      >>>>>>>>> copy you on first call due to you being off frequency.
      >>>>>> AFSK use avoids that.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> Also if you work other data modes and/or use SSB voice
      >>>>>> keying from
      >>>>>>>>> N1MM then you already have the PC sound card to K3 cable
      >>>>>> so why not
      >>>>>>>>> use it for RTTY?
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> In the case of the K3, I know Andy Flowers K0SM tried to
      >>>>>> over drive
      >>>>>>>>> its input and found the K3 dealt with it so no fears
      >>>>>> about overdrive
      >>>>>>>>> causing distortion.
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> 73 David G3YYD
      >>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>> On 30/08/2013 18:27, N2TK, Tony wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>> So, any reason for those of us with K3's with the latest
      >>>>>> firmware
      >>>>>>>>>> to switch from FSK to AFSK?
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> 73,
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> N2TK, Tony
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> From: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
      >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of David
      >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 12:17 PM
      >>>>>>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM (stand
      >>>>>>>>>> -a-lone)
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Russell
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> Yes it is designed to replace MMTTY. It does not do FSK
      >>>>>> only AFSK
      >>>>>>>>>> for 2
      >>>>>>>>>> very good reasons. 1) MMTTY with extfsk has a lot of
      >>>>>> data bit timing
      >>>>>>>>>> jitter causing receiving errors and 2)rig based FSK is very
      >>>>>>>>>> anti-social
      >>>>>>>>>> in occupying a lot more bandwidth that necessary. The
      >>>>>> only exception I
      >>>>>>>>>> know of is the K3 FSK with latest firmware.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> If you read the documentation that comes with 2Tone see
      >>>>>> N1MM digital
      >>>>>>>>>> site here:
      >>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N1MMLogger-Digital/ look in
      >>>>>>>>>> files section folder G3YYD You will find a simple how to install
      >>>>>>>>>> 2Tone list.
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> 73 David G3YYD
      >>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>> On 30/08/2013 16:08, Russell Blair wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>> Can 2Tone work as a stand-a-lone progran with N1MM. Not needing
      >>>>>>>>>>> any other
      >>>>>>>>>> program with it as (MMTTY).
      >>>>>>>>>>> Russell NC5O
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> " IN GOD WE TRUST " " Skype-Russell.Blair"
      >>>>>>>>>>> "God's law is set in stone..everything else is negotiable."
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
      >>>>>>>>>>> From: Pete Smith N4ZR<n4zr@...
      >>>> <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:n4zr%40contesting.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> To: N1MMLogger@yahoogroups.com
      >>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>> <mailto:N1MMLogger%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 10:03 AM
      >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [N1MM] Re: Transmitting with 2Tone and N1MM
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> You're right, Rich. I don't know why I could not get it
      >>>>>> to work at
      >>>>>>>>>>> first, but it is running fine now.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> 73, Pete N4ZR
      >>>>>>>>>>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at
      >>>>>>>>>>> http://reversebeacon.net,
      >>>>>>>>>>> blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com.
      >>>>>>>>>>> For spots, please go to your favorite
      >>>>>>>>>>> ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node.
      >>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2013 9:27 AM, Richard Ferch wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Pete,
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Winkeyer PTT works in digital modes.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> 73,
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Rich VE3KI
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Pete N4ZR wrote:
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct in understanding that Winkeyer PTT will
      >>>>>> not actuate
      >>>>>>>>>>>> with
      >>>>>>>>>>>> the {TX} and {RX} macros in digital modes? There
      >>>>>> doesn't seem to
      >>>>>>>>>>>> be any
      >>>>>>>>>>>> serious objection to using VOX, if you want to use
      >>>>>> AFSK, but I'm
      >>>>>>>>>>>> curious.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>>>>>>
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