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Distinguishing between P. pederseni and P. regalis

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  • tracehardin
    Hey guys, sorry I missed the last meeting, I hope to be at the next one. I bought a spiderling P. pederseni from the lizard king awhile back. As you guys
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
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      Hey guys, sorry I missed the last meeting, I hope to be at the next
      one. I bought a spiderling P. pederseni from the lizard king awhile
      back. As you guys know the lizard king is not a spider guy.
      The "pederseni" developed an abdominal band, just like P. regalis. I
      thought this was odd but was reassured that occasionally this happens
      and it will go away. Well, molt after molt the band just got bigger
      and more pronounced. The "pederseni" just had it's mature molt and is
      a male with a big, pink abdominal stripe. What do you guys think?
      Did I pay pederseni price for a regalis? Hope to see you all soon and
      I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
    • Patrick Mumford
      Hey Trace, Good to hear from you. We have one of the LIzard King P. pederseni s too. It s got the same pink bank around it s abdomen. Ours is a female though.
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 3, 2006
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        Hey Trace,

        Good to hear from you. We have one of the LIzard King P. pederseni's too. It's got the same pink bank around it's abdomen. Ours is a female though. One of the best way to ID poec's is by the colors on the underside of the front legs. There's a website that shows them all and KJ has a paper copy of it too. If he doesn't catch this message send him a personal one and ask him for the website. It will take some work but you will know for sure what species your poec is at least. Hope to see you at the next meeting. Remember it's a week early due to the holidays, that will put it on the 16th. Hope to see you there.


        Pat

        tracehardin <tracehardin@...> wrote:
        Hey guys, sorry I missed the last meeting, I hope to be at the next
        one. I bought a spiderling P. pederseni from the lizard king awhile
        back. As you guys know the lizard king is not a spider guy.
        The "pederseni" developed an abdominal band, just like P. regalis. I
        thought this was odd but was reassured that occasionally this happens
        and it will go away. Well, molt after molt the band just got bigger
        and more pronounced. The "pederseni" just had it's mature molt and is
        a male with a big, pink abdominal stripe. What do you guys think?
        Did I pay pederseni price for a regalis? Hope to see you all soon and
        I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.



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      • KJ Vezino
        Here s the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
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          Here's the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to
          identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.

          http://theraphosidae.free.fr/file/Poecilotheria_ID_key_S_Rafn.pdf

          -KJ
        • Trace Hardin
          Thanks for the link guys. I have seen both carapace identification charts and the alarm band charts but I thought the best way to tell regalis from any other
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
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            Thanks for the link guys.  I have seen both carapace identification charts and the alarm band charts but I thought the best way to tell regalis from any other Poecilotheria was to look at the abdominal band.  Pat, maybe we should compare or spiders and see if we have the same species.  If we do, you know what I'm thinking!
            Talk to you soon,
            Trace

            KJ Vezino <TheVez2@...> wrote:
            Here's the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to
            identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.

            http://theraphosida e.free.fr/ file/Poecilother ia_ID_key_ S_Rafn.pdf

            -KJ



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          • KJ Vezino
            Trace, Maybe you and Patrick should both bring your spiders to the December meeting. And if they are both the same species and they re ready to go, we can add
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
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              Trace,
              Maybe you and Patrick should both bring your spiders to the December
              meeting. And if they are both the same species and they're ready to
              go, we can add another pair of spiders to the breeding party. How's
              that sound to you?

              -KJ


              --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups.com, Trace Hardin <tracehardin@...> wrote:
              >Pat, maybe we should compare or spiders and see if we have the same
              >species. If we do, you know what I'm thinking!
              > Talk to you soon,
              > Trace
            • Christian
              As the person who sold those slings are supposed to local, maybe we should contact Micky and ask for the information. A responsible shop owner should help
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 4, 2006
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                As the person who sold those slings are supposed to local, maybe we should contact Micky and ask for the information.  A responsible shop owner should help track down the species information of the animals he's selling, even if he's not comfortable giving out the person's contact info.  I'm sure the male is dead by now, but the female should easily be available.




                "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush
                in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
                -- Feegle tactics
              • KJ Vezino
                Trace, Were you able to use that chart to ID your Poec? -KJ
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  Trace,

                  Were you able to use that chart to ID your Poec?

                  -KJ
                • Patrick Mumford
                  I m with you but wouldn t you think that they are siblings? Or does that really matter? Pat Trace Hardin wrote: Thanks for the link
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    I'm with you but wouldn't you think that they are siblings? Or does that really matter?


                    Pat

                    Trace Hardin <tracehardin@...> wrote:
                    Thanks for the link guys.  I have seen both carapace identification charts and the alarm band charts but I thought the best way to tell regalis from any other Poecilotheria was to look at the abdominal band.  Pat, maybe we should compare or spiders and see if we have the same species.  If we do, you know what I'm thinking!
                    Talk to you soon,
                    Trace

                    KJ Vezino <TheVez2@aol. com> wrote:
                    Here's the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to
                    identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.

                    http://theraphosida e.free.fr/ file/Poecilother ia_ID_key_ S_Rafn.pdf

                    -KJ



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                  • Trace Hardin
                    Well, I doubt Poecilotheria have an expansive home range where they never come into contact with relatives. I don t think it is a problem to inbreed, as long
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      Well, I doubt Poecilotheria have an expansive home range where they never come into contact with relatives.  I don't think it is a problem to inbreed, as long as it is not done excessively.  What do all you other guys think?
                      Trace

                      Patrick Mumford <pokeeregal@...> wrote:
                      I'm with you but wouldn't you think that they are siblings? Or does that really matter?


                      Pat

                      Trace Hardin <tracehardin@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      Thanks for the link guys.  I have seen both carapace identification charts and the alarm band charts but I thought the best way to tell regalis from any other Poecilotheria was to look at the abdominal band.  Pat, maybe we should compare or spiders and see if we have the same species.  If we do, you know what I'm thinking!
                      Talk to you soon,
                      Trace

                      KJ Vezino <TheVez2@aol. com> wrote:
                      Here's the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to
                      identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.

                      http://theraphosida e.free.fr/ file/Poecilother ia_ID_key_ S_Rafn.pdf

                      -KJ



                      Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.


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                    • Christian
                      Trace, The British Tarantula Society put out an article where P. murinus was inbred for 3 generations without a noticeable effect. I also bet these tree
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        Trace,

                        The British Tarantula Society put out an article where P. murinus was inbred for 3 generations without a noticeable effect.  I also bet these tree dwelling species don't radiate out from the home site much, especially now that forest destruction has been so very bad.

                        To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could have been a sib-cross anyway...  check with Micky for info if he'll cough it up.  Also the male should be mature far sooner than the female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it... this is species dependent and all that too...

                        Christian




                        "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush
                        in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
                        -- Feegle tactics
                      • KJ Vezino
                        I don t see a reason to not try it, as long as you both can verify they are the same species. Even if the female is small... Patrick do you have a molt? Does
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          I don't see a reason to not try it, as long as you both can verify
                          they are the same species. Even if the female is small... Patrick do
                          you have a molt? Does the spermathecae look developed?

                          Why not give it a try here, before sending the guy off on another
                          quest. Can't hurt anything, unless he get chomped.

                          Yes the maturation times are different for males/females but if
                          they've been kept at different temps and fed at different intervals,
                          it is possible the female matued a little faster than the male....
                          making them more compatable. That would really be up to Patrick, to
                          see if he thinks his girl is ready to go.

                          My 2 cents
                          -KJ


                          --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups.com, Christian <celowsky21@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Trace,
                          >
                          >
                          > To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially
                          since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could
                          have been a sib-cross anyway... check with Micky for info if he'll
                          cough it up. Also the male should be mature far sooner than the
                          female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might
                          not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it...
                          this is species dependent and all that too...
                          >
                          > Christian
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just
                          rush
                          > in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight
                          awa'."
                          > -- Feegle tactics
                          >
                        • Trace Hardin
                          Well that male is definitely a P. regalis. I compared the leg markings (thanks KJ) and the carapace from a chart at arachnoboards. Pat, I can t remember if
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 7, 2006
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                            Well that male is definitely a P. regalis.  I compared the leg markings (thanks KJ) and the carapace from a chart at arachnoboards.  Pat, I can't remember if you think yours is a regalis or pederseni, they are pretty distinct.  Let me know if you want me to bring him on Saturday or if I should ship him out.
                            Talk to you soon,
                            Trace

                            KJ Vezino <TheVez2@...> wrote:
                            I don't see a reason to not try it, as long as you both can verify
                            they are the same species. Even if the female is small... Patrick do
                            you have a molt? Does the spermathecae look developed?

                            Why not give it a try here, before sending the guy off on another
                            quest. Can't hurt anything, unless he get chomped.

                            Yes the maturation times are different for males/females but if
                            they've been kept at different temps and fed at different intervals,
                            it is possible the female matued a little faster than the male....
                            making them more compatable. That would really be up to Patrick, to
                            see if he thinks his girl is ready to go.

                            My 2 cents
                            -KJ

                            --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com, Christian <celowsky21@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Trace,
                            >
                            >
                            > To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially
                            since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could
                            have been a sib-cross anyway... check with Micky for info if he'll
                            cough it up. Also the male should be mature far sooner than the
                            female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might
                            not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it...
                            this is species dependent and all that too...
                            >
                            > Christian
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just
                            rush
                            > in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight
                            awa'."
                            > -- Feegle tactics
                            >



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                          • Patrick Mumford
                            Probably not a problem. I have to agree with you on this one Trace. I have read something about P. murinus being bred to the third generation with no
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                              Probably not a problem. I have to agree with you on this one Trace. I have read something about P. murinus being bred to the third generation with no noticeable problems noted. The think is I don't think my female will be mature in time. I'm pretty sure they came from the same egg sac. Would the males and females mature at the same rate? I always thought males matured much faster.

                              Trace Hardin <tracehardin@...> wrote:
                              Well, I doubt Poecilotheria have an expansive home range where they never come into contact with relatives.  I don't think it is a problem to inbreed, as long as it is not done excessively.  What do all you other guys think?
                              Trace

                              Patrick Mumford <pokeeregal@yahoo. com> wrote:
                              I'm with you but wouldn't you think that they are siblings? Or does that really matter?


                              Pat

                              Trace Hardin <tracehardin@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                              Thanks for the link guys.  I have seen both carapace identification charts and the alarm band charts but I thought the best way to tell regalis from any other Poecilotheria was to look at the abdominal band.  Pat, maybe we should compare or spiders and see if we have the same species.  If we do, you know what I'm thinking!
                              Talk to you soon,
                              Trace

                              KJ Vezino <TheVez2@aol. com> wrote:
                              Here's the link that Patrick mentioned. It shows what to look for to
                              identify your Poecs. Let us know what you find out from it.

                              http://theraphosida e.free.fr/ file/Poecilother ia_ID_key_ S_Rafn.pdf

                              -KJ



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                            • Patrick Mumford
                              I guess I should have read this before I answered Trace s message. We are on the same page Christian. For some reason that makes me feel good. Am I sick?
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                                I guess I should have read this before I answered Trace's message. We are on the same page Christian. For some reason that makes me feel good. Am I sick?

                                Patrick

                                Christian <celowsky21@...> wrote:
                                Trace,

                                The British Tarantula Society put out an article where P. murinus was inbred for 3 generations without a noticeable effect.  I also bet these tree dwelling species don't radiate out from the home site much, especially now that forest destruction has been so very bad.

                                To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could have been a sib-cross anyway...  check with Micky for info if he'll cough it up.  Also the male should be mature far sooner than the female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it... this is species dependent and all that too...

                                Christian




                                "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush
                                in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
                                -- Feegle tactics


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                              • Patrick Mumford
                                Right now she s in premolt. Close to two weeks so far I d guess. There s no way she s big enough. P. pederseni get what, 8 inches as adults? She s maybe 4.5
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                                  Right now she's in premolt. Close to two weeks so far I'd guess. There's no way she's big enough. P. pederseni get what, 8 inches as adults? She's maybe 4.5 inches now. I don't think she's ready. How can you tell if spermathecae are fully developed?

                                  Pat

                                  KJ Vezino <TheVez2@...> wrote:
                                  I don't see a reason to not try it, as long as you both can verify
                                  they are the same species. Even if the female is small... Patrick do
                                  you have a molt? Does the spermathecae look developed?

                                  Why not give it a try here, before sending the guy off on another
                                  quest. Can't hurt anything, unless he get chomped.

                                  Yes the maturation times are different for males/females but if
                                  they've been kept at different temps and fed at different intervals,
                                  it is possible the female matued a little faster than the male....
                                  making them more compatable. That would really be up to Patrick, to
                                  see if he thinks his girl is ready to go.

                                  My 2 cents
                                  -KJ

                                  --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com, Christian <celowsky21@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Trace,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially
                                  since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could
                                  have been a sib-cross anyway... check with Micky for info if he'll
                                  cough it up. Also the male should be mature far sooner than the
                                  female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might
                                  not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it...
                                  this is species dependent and all that too...
                                  >
                                  > Christian
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just
                                  rush
                                  > in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight
                                  awa'."
                                  > -- Feegle tactics
                                  >



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                                • Patrick Mumford
                                  You are absolutely sure it s a P. regalis. That would mean that mine is and the two that Dave got are. Should something be said to Mickey at LK? Price wise I
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                                    You are absolutely sure it's a P. regalis. That would mean that mine is and the two that Dave got are. Should something be said to Mickey at LK? Price wise I think they are pretty close and besides, I'd bet money you wouldn't get anything back from him. I'm sure he goes by the BBB mantra; Buyer Beware Bro in this particular case.

                                    Garrett told me quite a while back he thought it was a P. regalis because of the abdomen ring. I told him it was probably something that would fade as it matured. I guess he was right again. Little turd does that too me all the time. One of these days I'm going to learn to trust him.

                                    I've got two female P. regalis now, and neither one is close to breeding size. I'd say if you can find a female that's ready for your male Trace ship him off. No use wasting the dude.

                                    Pat

                                    Trace Hardin <tracehardin@...> wrote:
                                    Well that male is definitely a P. regalis.  I compared the leg markings (thanks KJ) and the carapace from a chart at arachnoboards.  Pat, I can't remember if you think yours is a regalis or pederseni, they are pretty distinct.  Let me know if you want me to bring him on Saturday or if I should ship him out.
                                    Talk to you soon,
                                    Trace

                                    KJ Vezino <TheVez2@aol. com> wrote:
                                    I don't see a reason to not try it, as long as you both can verify
                                    they are the same species. Even if the female is small... Patrick do
                                    you have a molt? Does the spermathecae look developed?

                                    Why not give it a try here, before sending the guy off on another
                                    quest. Can't hurt anything, unless he get chomped.

                                    Yes the maturation times are different for males/females but if
                                    they've been kept at different temps and fed at different intervals,
                                    it is possible the female matued a little faster than the male....
                                    making them more compatable. That would really be up to Patrick, to
                                    see if he thinks his girl is ready to go.

                                    My 2 cents
                                    -KJ

                                    --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com, Christian <celowsky21@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Trace,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To be honest, I'd not do it, unless I was forced to, especially
                                    since you don't know the origin of the sac to begin with, which could
                                    have been a sib-cross anyway... check with Micky for info if he'll
                                    cough it up. Also the male should be mature far sooner than the
                                    female, a small female is a waste of a male in my opinion, and might
                                    not even have a well enough developed spermathecea to even try it...
                                    this is species dependent and all that too...
                                    >
                                    > Christian
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just
                                    rush
                                    > in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight
                                    awa'."
                                    > -- Feegle tactics
                                    >



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                                    Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

                                  • Christian
                                    Patrick, Save the molt and check the thickness of the spermathecea, maturity can only be judged by animal size and scleritization of the spermathecea. Also,
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                                      Patrick,

                                      Save the molt and check the "thickness" of the spermathecea, maturity can only be judged by animal size and scleritization of the spermathecea.  Also, as we'll have a pile of folks at the next meeting, you could ask there too!

                                      As for "always" developing faster, it does still depend on genetics (genotype), and environment (temps, stresses, water availability) and of course food availability across the life span.  It is assumed that the males mature faster in "most" species, but there are infinite difference between Aphonopelma spp. and our fast growing Poecilotheria spp.  This is probably why inbreeding questions are only asked with in the case of Avicularia spp., Poecilotheria spp. and Pterinochilus spp.


                                      Christian




                                      "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush
                                      in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
                                      -- Feegle tactics
                                    • Patrick Mumford
                                      When I said males mature faster I was assuming everything was equal. I know, I know, never assume. I do appreciate the info though Christian, thanks. You know
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Dec 10, 2006
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                                        When I said males mature faster I was assuming everything was equal. I know, I know, never assume.

                                        I do appreciate the info though Christian, thanks. You know I've asked that question before on the ATS, how do you tell when a female is mature? Got the sclerotized answer back then. Should have remembered that. Thanks again, you da man!

                                        Patrick

                                        Christian <celowsky21@...> wrote:
                                        Patrick,

                                        Save the molt and check the "thickness" of the spermathecea, maturity can only be judged by animal size and scleritization of the spermathecea.  Also, as we'll have a pile of folks at the next meeting, you could ask there too!

                                        As for "always" developing faster, it does still depend on genetics (genotype), and environment (temps, stresses, water availability) and of course food availability across the life span.  It is assumed that the males mature faster in "most" species, but there are infinite difference between Aphonopelma spp. and our fast growing Poecilotheria spp.  This is probably why inbreeding questions are only asked with in the case of Avicularia spp., Poecilotheria spp. and Pterinochilus spp.


                                        Christian




                                        "But ye gotta know *where* ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush
                                        in *anywhere*. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'."
                                        -- Feegle tactics


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