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Re: My new baby!

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  • Angela
    Darn too bad I m not more fresh into the hobby. I would love to have an A. seemani. But good luck with the communal project. It sounds difficult but
    Message 1 of 45 , Sep 1, 2007
      Darn too bad I'm not more fresh into the hobby. I would love to have
      an A. seemani. But good luck with the communal project. It sounds
      difficult but interesting.

      Angela


      --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Mumford <pokeeregal@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Joe. Good luck with the communal project. I'll have to read
      about your wasp project on one of the sites.
      >
      > I don't know anybody right off hand for the A. seemani but I'll keep
      my ears and eyes open.
      >
      >
      > Patrick
      >
      > joeballenger2005@... wrote: Let me rephrase what I said earlier to
      clear things up.
      >
      > Please remember that I am sending this from a mobile phone so this
      is essentially a glorified text message so due to time constraints I
      am not always as clear as I would like to be.
      >
      > When I got into this hobby I decided I would do secondary projects
      which other members would find interesting and learn from. These
      projects are meticulously documented and studied over a reletively
      long time.
      >
      > The first of these such projects was the wasp project which I have
      documented on both venomlist and arachnoboards. My objective was to
      create a general caresheet for others to follow which instructed users
      how to care for wasps on every level from day to day care to captive
      breeding and secondary colony production and how to safely excecute a
      diapause period.
      >
      > There have recently been documented captive matings of the wasps I
      am caring for as well as colony production from scratchM diapause has
      also been taken care of but all these steps have never been put
      together by a hobbiest.
      >
      > This fall, I will be mating wasps and putting them into an
      artificial or natural diapause using a handful of methods which have
      been devised by hobbiests.
      >
      > Since my goal for this project is almost complete I am looking for
      another project to complete. I have heard of a handfull of successful
      communal tarantula projects and would like to document one from start
      to finish.
      >
      > One of the successful projects I heard of was an OBT colony and I am
      simply seeking literature on colonies of this species in particular
      because I may be coming into a whole prattle of slings soon.
      >
      > I have ideas on how I would want to do this project but I would like
      to see other documented colonies of this type to see if there is a
      variable related to success or failure.
      >
      > The other project I was planning on doing was a calcium
      metabolization project to test if there really is a corelation between
      calcium and moulting deformities.
      >
      > So does anyone have literature of the type I am seeking?
      >
      > I would really be interested in the hystereocrates literature. I've
      wanted to breed this species for awhile.
      >
      > In other news I have a guaranteed female long term captive wild
      caught aphonopelma seemani I would like to see go to someone for their
      first tarantula.
      >
      > She was given to me for free so I would like to see her given away
      as a gift preferably to someone completely fresh to the hobby.
      >
      > Think you guys could do this for me as a favor?
      > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Patrick Mumford
      >
      >
      > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:23:31
      > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
      >
      >
      > I still don't get it Joe. I'm not getting on your case here OK? Just
      trying to smarten up a bit.
      >
      > You're willing to sacrifice a bunch of slings to prove that your
      expectations could be wrong?
      >
      > I don't see what it being a follow up has anything to do with it.
      >
      > You prefer to prepare to fail. Got to admit I don't get that one at
      all Joe. Wouldn't you want your projects to succeed? Sounds like a
      whole lot of pessimism is already there.
      >
      > I am aware of the success of the H. incei project. That's one of the
      coolest things around. There's an even better success story about the
      "chicken spider" on the BTS website. The P. murinus one I'm not aware
      of. If it is like every other P. murinus communal project that I am
      aware of then I'm fairly certain there were some losses.
      >
      > I think it was Christian who was telling me about the H. gigas. If I
      remember correctly he told me that they were observed grooming each
      other. I'd have paid money to see that.
      >
      > Joe, what it boils down to with me is this is something that has
      been done many times before with P. murinus. They have all started
      with some initial success but as the spiders get older there seems to
      be fewer and fewer of them. People just need to come to grips that
      tarantulas, for the most part, don't like each others company.
      >
      > It's a free country Joe and you are an adult. That pretty much
      enables you to do what you want within the confines of the law. It
      isn't my place to try and stop you anyway. I was just wanting to
      understand the reasoning behind your project. I really don't have to
      though for it to continue so with that I'll just wish you the best of
      luck and I hope it all turns out the way you want it to.
      >
      >
      > Patrick
      >
      > joeballenger2005@... wrote: The point in starting any risky project
      is always that my expectations could be proven wrong.
      >
      > I also figured this would be a good followup to my wasp experiments
      because they will be drawing to a close next year because captive
      breeding seems much, much easier than I anticipated.
      >
      > I have seen projects which were started as adults where losses were
      minimal. When starting any project I prefer to prepare for failure
      because optimism tends to breed pessimism after a few bad rounds.
      >
      > I am still looking into communal projects. It seems that siblicide
      increases dramatically when there is any sort of competition for food
      water or shelter.
      >
      > Patrick: Sheri and The Red Queen from arachnoboards have both had
      successful communal setups (p. Murinis and h. incei respectively) and
      I think I can mimic their success.
      >
      > Who was checking into the hystereocrates communal project? I can't
      seem to find the message.
      > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Patrick Mumford
      >
      > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:03:21
      > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
      >
      >
      > Hey Joe,
      >
      > Not sure why you would start a project where you're expecting "heavy
      losses". What's the point? Many people have kept P. murinus communal,
      for a period, and they always lose slings to the point that they stop
      the project. You got something special planned that may reduce losses?
      >
      > Patrick
      >
      > joeballenger2005@... wrote: I am doing this experiment with OBT (p.
      Murinis) slings.
      >
      > I am expecting some pretty heavy losses from this project. I'm going
      to assume anywhere from r percent to total.
      >
      > part of the reason I am starting them at one inch is to observe any
      social activities. Larger spiders make observation easier.
      >
      > Remember, I don't have the slings yet so right now I am in the
      formative stages of the project
      > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Christian
      >
      > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:07:42
      > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
      >
      >
      > Oops, I've missed what species your talking about here. Regardless,
      you will see some siblicide (if they're from the same sac!) with all
      species. Well, at least that's from all that I've read. Holothele
      sp., P. murinus being the two that come to mind. As for Hysterocrates
      sp., I don't have Luc Ross' information handy but he always keeps them
      together from the smallest sling on. I have heard of folks starting
      some sort of colonial thing with 1" spiders though.
      >
      > To be honest, if you note a missing spider, it's just as missing at
      .25" as 1", right?
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Trace Hardin
      Great. I ve got two large females and I ll go ahead and get two different males for each of them. Trace joeballenger2005@yahoo.com wrote: I can ship him out
      Message 45 of 45 , Sep 28, 2007
        Great.  I've got two large females and I'll go ahead and get two different males for each of them.
        Trace

        joeballenger2005@... wrote:
        I can ship him out in a week from tomorrow.

        Anyone know where I can get a small immature male formosa?
        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Trace Hardin

        Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:48:29
        To:N-TEC@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!


        Hey Joe, I just saw your message to me about sending out that L. parahybana. If you want to ship it I can put it with my females. 
        Trace Hardin
        3025 newport ave
        omaha, ne
        68112

        Joe Ballenger wrote:


        Patrick, if you would send me a private E-mail with your phone number, that would work out better or I could give you mine through a private E-mail (which I'm not sure how to send). I am constantly on the move and most of the E-mail I send is just really short messages through E-mail. I could give you a better answer over the phone if you're interested.
         
        I really only ended up using the alcohol, vaseline and the vaccuum cleaner. I was using the salt mixed with oats to bait the mites and dehydrate them, but they seemed to ignore the bait.
         
        I vaccuumed the carpet with a brush attachment and washed everything with alcohol, which has the benefit of both drying them out and destroying their nervous system. I just had to be careful with my pseudomops and ventilation...rare roaches, don't want them being poisoned.
         
        I am going to have to clean everything twice a week now for awhile.
         
        Like I said, I can give you a better answer over the phone.

        Patrick Mumford wrote:

        Joe,

        When ever you get the time would you mind telling all of us the exact way you plan on using all of your "anti-mite" ingredients? Thanks.

        Pat

        joeballenger2005@... wrote: I am feeling a lot better. Went to class and everything. I'm at work right now. I've been sending out a flurry of e-mails trying to figure out what I've missed and my professors are getting random letters and numbers.

        Most of my e-mailing is done through my phone so I don't know if it's that.

        Either way, my seemani is eating and I am going to be combatting the rest of the mite infestation tonight. I am armed with vaseline, salt, a vaccuum cleaner, paper towels and alcolhol.

        There's always the slight possibility I could end up in a mexican jail. I'll keep y'all posted :)

        I have a lot of homework to catch up on.
        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "Pam"

        Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:35:19
        To:N-TEC@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!


        Hey Joe,

        I was able to read both yesterday's and today's posts. Are you
        feeling better?

        Pam

        --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com, joeballenger2005@... wrote:
        >
        > Can you guys read this?
        >
        > I've been having trouble with my e-mail lately
        > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: "Pam"
        >
        > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:41:30
        > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        >
        >
        > Joe, It's been a couple days since your last post, just wondering
        > how your lady has faired since Sunday?
        >
        > Pam
        >
        > -- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com,
        joeballenger2005@ wrote:
        > >
        > > She's doing a lot better now. She is still alive as of this
        > morning and it doesn't look as if she lost any more hemolymph
        since
        > my last message.
        > >
        > > She is still really sluggish, but otherwise normal. She's not
        in a
        > death curl.
        > >
        > > The next part I'm a bit fuzzy on. This is a spider with a 4
        inch
        > legspan who lost nearly 2ml worth of fluid. She's going to be
        > dehydrated but I don't want to introduce her back into her
        enclosure.
        > >
        > > I was going to put her in a temporary enclosure with a
        waterdish
        > and see if she'll eat a headcrushed lobster roach. I definitely
        > don't want to use cocobark, though. If changed daily, would
        toilet
        > paper be a good temporary substrate?
        > >
        > > Thanks for the condolences. She's in good hands :)
        > >
        > > I will be posting pictures of how she's set up on arachnoboards
        > later tonight.
        > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: "Pam"
        > >
        > > Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:00:33
        > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > Subject: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > >
        > >
        > > Joe,
        > >
        > > I am new to N-TEC, and haven't met any of you yet, but let me
        > send
        > > my condolences to you and your girl. I hope she pulls through
        for
        > > you, I know this can be a devestating injury.
        > >
        > > Pam
        > >
        > > --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com,
        > joeballenger2005@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > About a tenth the size of a period. Essentially moving dust.
        > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Patrick Mumford
        > > >
        > > > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 14:33:10
        > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Is it possible to use the grain mites as feeders for tiny
        > slings?
        > > How big are they Joe?
        > > >
        > > > Patrick
        > > >
        > > > joeballenger2005@ wrote: It only happens when you get
        careless.
        > > In this case I was doing my weekly bolus picking on my bed when
        > she
        > > ran off and landed on something.
        > > >
        > > > Any sort of drop no matter how small could theoretically
        result
        > in
        > > a rupture.
        > > >
        > > > The calcium metabolism project is looking better for me at
        this
        > > point. There are several end of the year class projects it
        would
        > fit
        > > perfectly in with.
        > > >
        > > > Depending on the results I could also attempt to get the
        study
        > > published. First things first, though.
        > > >
        > > > Also, I just cleaned out my AGB tank and it seems I had some
        > grain
        > > mites feeding on some dog food.
        > > >
        > > > The last time I had problems with grain mites, I had a 2 inch
        > deep
        > > 3 foot wide pile of them on my garage floor from a mealworm
        > colony
        > > kept in oats.
        > > >
        > > > I have removed any potential food sources but they're near a
        > > colony of somewhat rare roaches that need to be fed daily not
        to
        > > mention dynastes sp grubs. Any ideas?
        > > >
        > > > I was thinking of an air dessicator (damp-rid) just in case
        but
        > > I'm worried about potential moulting problems if I do that.
        > > >
        > > > This has not been a good day for my bugs and I.
        > > >
        > > > Trace: if you send me your addy I could get the male spider
        out
        > > this week.
        > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Angela Harden
        > > >
        > > > Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 08:47:55
        > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Oh my goodness.  That's terrible.  Wow.  I've never heard of
        > that
        > > happening.  But there's a lot I still haven't heard of.  I hope
        > she
        > > gets better.
        > > >
        > > > joeballenger2005@ wrote: Unfortunatelu she's no longer
        > > avalible. She ran out of her tank during a routine cleaning and
        > > ruptured her abdomen about 20 minutes ago.
        > > >
        > > > The split is about a quarter inch long and there's a tan
        > substance
        > > hanging out of the wound. She ended up losing maybe three
        fourths
        > to
        > > one milliliter.of hemolymph.
        > > >
        > > > I applied corn starch and put her into an icu as quickly as I
        > > could and the bleeding (hemolymphing?) Seems to have stopped.
        > > >
        > > > She's acting more or less normal right now, a bit sluggish
        > maybe.
        > > >
        > > > No idea what her prognosis is but she will have to wait until
        > the
        > > very next moult until I can even think about sending her out.
        > > >
        > > > At this point I am worried about infection more than anything.
        > > >
        > > > Who else has had this happen?
        > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: "Angela"
        > > >
        > > > Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:35:39
        > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > Subject: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Darn too bad I'm not more fresh into the hobby. I would love
        to
        > > have
        > > > an A. seemani. But good luck with the communal project. It
        > sounds
        > > > difficult but interesting.
        > > >
        > > > Angela
        > > >
        > > > --- In N-TEC@yahoogroups. com, Patrick Mumford wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Thanks Joe. Good luck with the communal project. I'll have
        to
        > > read
        > > > about your wasp project on one of the sites.
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't know anybody right off hand for the A. seemani but
        > I'll
        > > keep
        > > > my ears and eyes open.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Patrick
        > > > >
        > > > > joeballenger2005@ wrote: Let me rephrase what I said
        earlier
        > to
        > > > clear things up.
        > > > >
        > > > > Please remember that I am sending this from a mobile phone
        so
        > > this
        > > > is essentially a glorified text message so due to time
        > > constraints I
        > > > am not always as clear as I would like to be.
        > > > >
        > > > > When I got into this hobby I decided I would do secondary
        > > projects
        > > > which other members would find interesting and learn from.
        These
        > > > projects are meticulously documented and studied over a
        > reletively
        > > > long time.
        > > > >
        > > > > The first of these such projects was the wasp project which
        I
        > > have
        > > > documented on both venomlist and arachnoboards. My objective
        > was
        > > to
        > > > create a general caresheet for others to follow which
        > instructed
        > > users
        > > > how to care for wasps on every level from day to day care to
        > > captive
        > > > breeding and secondary colony production and how to safely
        > > excecute a
        > > > diapause period.
        > > > >
        > > > > There have recently been documented captive matings of the
        > > wasps I
        > > > am caring for as well as colony production from scratchM
        > diapause
        > > has
        > > > also been taken care of but all these steps have never been
        put
        > > > together by a hobbiest.
        > > > >
        > > > > This fall, I will be mating wasps and putting them into an
        > > > artificial or natural diapause using a handful of methods
        which
        > > have
        > > > been devised by hobbiests.
        > > > >
        > > > > Since my goal for this project is almost complete I am
        > looking
        > > for
        > > > another project to complete. I have heard of a handfull of
        > > successful
        > > > communal tarantula projects and would like to document one
        from
        > > start
        > > > to finish.
        > > > >
        > > > > One of the successful projects I heard of was an OBT colony
        > and
        > > I am
        > > > simply seeking literature on colonies of this species in
        > > particular
        > > > because I may be coming into a whole prattle of slings soon.
        > > > >
        > > > > I have ideas on how I would want to do this project but I
        > would
        > > like
        > > > to see other documented colonies of this type to see if there
        > is a
        > > > variable related to success or failure.
        > > > >
        > > > > The other project I was planning on doing was a calcium
        > > > metabolization project to test if there really is a
        corelation
        > > between
        > > > calcium and moulting deformities.
        > > > >
        > > > > So does anyone have literature of the type I am seeking?
        > > > >
        > > > > I would really be interested in the hystereocrates
        > literature.
        > > I've
        > > > wanted to breed this species for awhile.
        > > > >
        > > > > In other news I have a guaranteed female long term captive
        > wild
        > > > caught aphonopelma seemani I would like to see go to someone
        > for
        > > their
        > > > first tarantula.
        > > > >
        > > > > She was given to me for free so I would like to see her
        given
        > > away
        > > > as a gift preferably to someone completely fresh to the hobby.
        > > > >
        > > > > Think you guys could do this for me as a favor?
        > > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: Patrick Mumford
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:23:31
        > > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I still don't get it Joe. I'm not getting on your case here
        > OK?
        > > Just
        > > > trying to smarten up a bit.
        > > > >
        > > > > You're willing to sacrifice a bunch of slings to prove that
        > your
        > > > expectations could be wrong?
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't see what it being a follow up has anything to do
        with
        > > it.
        > > > >
        > > > > You prefer to prepare to fail. Got to admit I don't get
        that
        > > one at
        > > > all Joe. Wouldn't you want your projects to succeed? Sounds
        > like a
        > > > whole lot of pessimism is already there.
        > > > >
        > > > > I am aware of the success of the H. incei project. That's
        one
        > > of the
        > > > coolest things around. There's an even better success story
        > about
        > > the
        > > > "chicken spider" on the BTS website. The P. murinus one I'm
        not
        > > aware
        > > > of. If it is like every other P. murinus communal project
        that
        > I
        > > am
        > > > aware of then I'm fairly certain there were some losses.
        > > > >
        > > > > I think it was Christian who was telling me about the H.
        > gigas.
        > > If I
        > > > remember correctly he told me that they were observed
        grooming
        > > each
        > > > other. I'd have paid money to see that.
        > > > >
        > > > > Joe, what it boils down to with me is this is something
        that
        > has
        > > > been done many times before with P. murinus. They have all
        > started
        > > > with some initial success but as the spiders get older there
        > > seems to
        > > > be fewer and fewer of them. People just need to come to grips
        > that
        > > > tarantulas, for the most part, don't like each others
        company.
        > > > >
        > > > > It's a free country Joe and you are an adult. That pretty
        much
        > > > enables you to do what you want within the confines of the
        law.
        > It
        > > > isn't my place to try and stop you anyway. I was just wanting
        to
        > > > understand the reasoning behind your project. I really don't
        > have
        > > to
        > > > though for it to continue so with that I'll just wish you the
        > > best of
        > > > luck and I hope it all turns out the way you want it to.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Patrick
        > > > >
        > > > > joeballenger2005@ wrote: The point in starting any risky
        > project
        > > > is always that my expectations could be proven wrong.
        > > > >
        > > > > I also figured this would be a good followup to my wasp
        > > experiments
        > > > because they will be drawing to a close next year because
        > captive
        > > > breeding seems much, much easier than I anticipated.
        > > > >
        > > > > I have seen projects which were started as adults where
        > losses
        > > were
        > > > minimal. When starting any project I prefer to prepare for
        > failure
        > > > because optimism tends to breed pessimism after a few bad
        > rounds.
        > > > >
        > > > > I am still looking into communal projects. It seems that
        > > siblicide
        > > > increases dramatically when there is any sort of competition
        > for
        > > food
        > > > water or shelter.
        > > > >
        > > > > Patrick: Sheri and The Red Queen from arachnoboards have
        both
        > > had
        > > > successful communal setups (p. Murinis and h. incei
        > respectively)
        > > and
        > > > I think I can mimic their success.
        > > > >
        > > > > Who was checking into the hystereocrates communal project?
        I
        > > can't
        > > > seem to find the message.
        > > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: Patrick Mumford
        > > > >
        > > > > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:03:21
        > > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hey Joe,
        > > > >
        > > > > Not sure why you would start a project where you're
        > > expecting "heavy
        > > > losses". What's the point? Many people have kept P. murinus
        > > communal,
        > > > for a period, and they always lose slings to the point that
        > they
        > > stop
        > > > the project. You got something special planned that may
        reduce
        > > losses?
        > > > >
        > > > > Patrick
        > > > >
        > > > > joeballenger2005@ wrote: I am doing this experiment with
        OBT
        > (p.
        > > > Murinis) slings.
        > > > >
        > > > > I am expecting some pretty heavy losses from this project.
        > I'm
        > > going
        > > > to assume anywhere from r percent to total.
        > > > >
        > > > > part of the reason I am starting them at one inch is to
        > observe
        > > any
        > > > social activities. Larger spiders make observation easier.
        > > > >
        > > > > Remember, I don't have the slings yet so right now I am in
        the
        > > > formative stages of the project
        > > > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: Christian
        > > > >
        > > > > Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:07:42
        > > > > To:N-TEC@yahoogroups. com
        > > > > Subject: Re: [N-TEC] Re: My new baby!
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Oops, I've missed what species your talking about here.
        > > Regardless,
        > > > you will see some siblicide (if they're from the same sac!)
        > with
        > > all
        > > > species. Well, at least that's from all that I've read.
        > Holothele
        > > > sp., P. murinus being the two that come to mind. As for
        > > Hysterocrates
        > > > sp., I don't have Luc Ross' information handy but he always
        > keeps
        > > them
        > > > together from the smallest sling on. I have heard of folks
        > > starting
        > > > some sort of colonial thing with 1" spiders though.
        > > > >
        > > > > To be honest, if you note a missing spider, it's just as
        > > missing at
        > > > .25" as 1", right?
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
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